Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

robindch · 03-11-2016 04:00PM

beach_walker wrote: »

"Remain" campaigners building on the outrage and shock over the referendum result, the rhetoric of which lead to the brutal beating to death of a Leave voter in the immediate aftermath, have hailed the courts decision today that parliament must have a say in the invocation of Article 50.

I assume you're referring to this case? If so, you might need to read up on the facts of the case:

Independent wrote:

Dunn was not charged with murder or manslaughter after a pathologist ruled that Mr Keating did not die as a direct result of the injuries he inflicted.

beach_walker wrote: »

Sauce for the goose and all that, right? I should work for the BBC!

The Daily Express might be more to your liking as you're not allowed to invent stories at the BBC :rolleyes:

the evasion_kid · 03-11-2016 04:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Looking at those quotes it amazes me that some people support the EU. It is a fascist construction designed to overwhelm democracy by the men at the very top.

And that's only a select few I picked,some of the stuff that comes out of these lads would make hitler blush,i firmly believe that one day people will look back at the EU with a sense of embarrassment...an embarrassment for having letting it get this far....the more i dig on it the more heinous it gets

beach_walker · 03-11-2016 04:07PM

robindch wrote: »

I assume you're referring to this case? If so, you might need to read up on the facts of the case:

Ok, hands up I thought he was done for manslaughter (being jailed for 4 years and 5 months stuck in my mind and that seems more of a sentence like one would get for that). I'll amend my news story to just reflect the brutal, politically sparked beating then. Thanks!

A Little Pony · 03-11-2016 04:08PM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Looking at those quotes it amazes me that some people support the EU. It is a fascist construction designed to overwhelm democracy by the men at the very top.

And that's only a select few I picked,some of the stuff that comes out of these lads would make hitler blush,i firmly believe that one day people will look back at the EU with a sense of embarrassment...an embarrassment for having letting it get this far....the more i dig on it the more heinous it gets

Ireland will wake up one day.

Fratton Fred · 03-11-2016 04:27PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

mps represent the people in their constituency. I would be interested to see a breakdown of the vote by constituency. I seem to remember that a few areas voted overwhelmingly in favour but most constituencies voted against.

It isn't that simple though, as the results were counted by local authority, not parliamentary constituency.

A Dub in Glasgo · 03-11-2016 04:35PM

beach_walker wrote: »

I agree in principle but it's a bit late in the day for that. And it really doesn't sit well for certain votes. Let's take the Scottish indy ref of 2014, can you imagine the sh!tstorm if that condition had been attached!

You mean like this from a previous referendum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979#Aftermath

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2016 04:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It isn't that simple though, as the results were counted by local authority, not parliamentary constituency.

i'm sure MPs will know what the feeling is amongst their own constituents. and if they get that wrong then they get voted out. a win for democracy all around

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2016 05:02PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

If Parliament voted against triggering Article 50, would you say that is acceptable? Would you think it is fine if they overturned the June 23rd vote? I think if they want to vote on it is fine but just be aware of the consequences if they screw the people.

Parliament is sovereign.
Referendums are not binding and are only advisory. An MP can do what he/she thinks is in the interests of the people.

That is the system the Brexiteers wanted.

Will you abide by the decision of Parliament?

ambro25 · 03-11-2016 05:19PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The case for the majority of the country takes precedent over a single constituency. The majority of the UK voted to leave, that democratic will should be respected. What you fail to understand about that is bizarre.

I'm quite sure the Labour MP for Houghton & Sunderland South would understand it just fine :pac:

Grayson · 03-11-2016 05:21PM

Oh Boris

He said he believed that Europe was coming to terms with the UK’s departure. “In the words of our great prime minister, they understand that Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”

“It sank,” said former chancellor George Osborne, who was presenting Johnson with his award.

“Well, the Titantic exhibition in Northern Ireland is the single most popular attraction in the province,” Johnson said. “We are going to make a colossal success of Brexit.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/03/brexit-will-be-titanic-success-says-boris-johnson

Fratton Fred · 03-11-2016 05:42PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm sure MPs will know what the feeling is amongst their own constituents. and if they get that wrong then they get voted out. a win for democracy all around

the problem in the first place was that MPs didn't understand their constituencies.

It wasn't until a few weeks before the referendum that Labour suddenly realised they had a problem and the areas they thought would never vote to leave, did so in great numbers.

A Little Pony · 03-11-2016 05:54PM

It will be a long walk to freedom for brexit eventually. The lying thieving establishment will try but ultimately fail to stop it.

Dyr · 03-11-2016 05:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

It will be a long walk to freedom for brexit eventually. The lying thieving establishment will try but ultimately fail to stop it.

Sure you lads love long walks

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2016 05:57PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

It will be a long walk to freedom for brexit eventually. The lying thieving establishment will try but ultimately fail to stop it.

how dare parliament assert their primacy.

A Little Pony · 03-11-2016 06:00PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

It will be a long walk to freedom for brexit eventually. The lying thieving establishment will try but ultimately fail to stop it.

how dare parliament assert their primacy.

Full of corrupt lying thieves. Brexiteers just need to keep the pressure on these people.

steddyeddy · 03-11-2016 06:03PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Full of corrupt lying thieves. Brexiteers just need to keep the pressure on these people.

Hopefully November the 5th won't give you any ideas

steddyeddy · 03-11-2016 06:07PM

I hate Brexit and the atmosphere it's created but I think things would be a lot worse if the vote was ignored. I don't see the Tories would have the courage to ignore the vote but it might make things interesting for Labour. I think Jeremy will have to get off the fence with this one.

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2016 06:08PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Full of corrupt lying thieves. Brexiteers just need to keep the pressure on these people.

£350M a week? was that it?

robindch · 03-11-2016 06:15PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

It will be a long walk to freedom for brexit eventually.

You're aware that the EU is basically a trading club which sets basic rules for economic co-operation amongst its members according to their prevailing wishes?

It's not, as you appear to think, some kind of confection of bratwurst and garlic which intends to flood England's green and pleasant land with a surfeit of sweaty Polish plumbers who block the motorways while making off with English dole money and busty female natives.

catbear · 03-11-2016 06:15PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I hate Brexit and the atmosphere it's created but I think things would be a lot worse if the vote was ignored. I don't see the Tories would have the courage to ignore the vote but it might make things interesting for Labour. I think Jeremy will have to get off the fence with this one.

I do feel though that at least in marginal areas after today the focus will turn away from dirty furriers although in the UKip heartlands the atmosphere will only get more intense.

gormdubhgorm · 03-11-2016 06:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I hate Brexit and the atmosphere it's created but I think things would be a lot worse if the vote was ignored. I don't see the Tories would have the courage to ignore the vote but it might make things interesting for Labour. I think Jeremy will have to get off the fence with this one.

The whole thing is really odd:

1) Cameron did not think the UK would vote leave

2) Corbyn did not bother trying to convince people to stay

3) A lot who voted to leave did so on the basis of "foreigners" or some other vague concept

4) During the debate itself I cannot remember any practical discussion on currency fluctuations, future extradition or the fact that many multinational companies may be moving elsewhere.

5) Meanwhile Theresa May seems to be having the time of her life!

I hope that all the brains in this country get a plan together to benefit from the fallout in Britain.

A Little Pony · 03-11-2016 06:26PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Full of corrupt lying thieves. Brexiteers just need to keep the pressure on these people.

Hopefully November the 5th won't give you any ideas

Lucky its the 21st century lol.

Like you said, ignoring the vote will just make it much worse. If they want a slightly lighter Brexit, then perhaps go for that if it means Parliament will back it. I can't see how they can just ignore the vote completely.

robindch · 03-11-2016 06:31PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

4) During the debate itself I cannot remember any practical discussion on currency fluctuations, future extradition or the fact that many multinational companies may be moving elsewhere.

There was some discussion of these things, but it was branded "Project Fear" and "Talking down Britain" and "People having had enough of experts" by various of the brexiteers.

It was as if abandoning the world's largest free-trade area, conveniently located on one's own doorstep and responsible for consuming around half of the nation's entire output, would be a simple exercise free of any serious consequences.

In all ways, the vote was eye-wateringly stupid and now that the predictable consequences are slowly unfolding, it'll take people with far more ability and talent to resolve it than what's possessed by the clowns who drove it to completion.

Fratton Fred · 03-11-2016 06:32PM

robindch wrote: »

There was some discussion of these things, but it was branded "Project Fear" and "Talking down Britain" and "People having had enough of experts" by various of the brexiteers.

was that not the Scottish indy referendum?

robindch · 03-11-2016 06:37PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I can't see how they can just ignore the vote completely.

The simplest off-ramp is to negotiate their exit conditions then put them to a second referendum asking "Do you want to exit on these conditions or remain as we are".

It would have the benefit of at least some kind of known outcome, though it would still require large numbers of people to accept implicitly if not explicitly that (a) they voted in the first referendum without having the slightest clue as to what they were voting for and (b) that they may have have to defer to the realistic opinions of people who do know what's at stake. Given that the nationalistic mayhem which drove the original decision is incompatible with these realizations, it's quite possible that a second referendum along the lines of the above would be lost as well and the nation would willingly commit economic suicide.

wes · 03-11-2016 06:58PM

robindch wrote: »

The simplest off-ramp is to negotiate their exit conditions then put them to a second referendum asking "Do you want to exit on these conditions or remain as we are".

In such a scenario, the only outcome that could be guaranteed would be a hard Brexit, as any other option requires agreement with the EU, whom won't negotiate any future arrangements until after they have both executed article 50, and fully left the EU.

Any other option would be subject to negotiation.

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2016 07:01PM

Anyone else seeing 'Continuity Brexit' beginning to form? 'Democracy - if it suits us'.

AllGunsBlazing · 03-11-2016 07:08PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think Jeremy will have to get off the fence with this one.

Corbyn isn't even remotely on the fence when it comes to Brexit. I saw him on BBC news calling for Cameron to enact Article 50 immediately on the morning of the result. At best he's been gagged on the subject by advisors since then.

Iwasfrozen · 03-11-2016 07:32PM

That ruling was certainly surprising but I don't see what effect it will have.

The government can simply impose its will through the whip system.

jackofalltrades · 03-11-2016 07:46PM

robindch wrote: »

The simplest off-ramp is to negotiate their exit conditions then put them to a second referendum asking "Do you want to exit on these conditions or remain as we are".

The EU has made it abundantly clear that they won't start negotiations until Article 50 is triggered.
Your solution given this current stance is unworkable.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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