The Garda Strike

suicide_circus · 03-11-2016 01:18PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

OK so we can agree on all that.

Now, where is the money going to come from for these pay rises?

Do you want to borrow the money on the the international markets adding to our already enormous national debt?

Which services do you think should see funding cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay?

Which other civil servants do you think should see pay cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay?

Which additional taxes would you like to see in order to raise money for additional garda pay? I suppose we could increase corporation tax jeopardising tens of thousands of jobs...we could keep the usc...we could pay water charges so general taxation could be used to pay gardai more instead of on our crumbling water infrastructure.

It's all fine and dandy to support the gardai in their pay claim but doing so without explaining where the money for this (and for the pay claims of ALL public servants which will surely follow if the Gardai are successful) will come from is a nonsense.

Anyone care to have a stab at my point above? No?

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 01:19PM

Conmc88 wrote: »

possibly not, but 176 people still died? hence farming is statistically the most dangerous job? what is confusing you about this?

Because they were not targeted by anyone for doing their job like the garda members were.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 01:21PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

A link? It's basic maths. 2.5% on 15k to 20k and 10% on 20k to 60k.

5000 * 2.5% = 125
40,000 * 10% = 4000

Yearly deduction 4,125

Times 30 years = €123,750

So that's €123,750 from the pension levy alone over 30 years. How then is the contribution worth only 110k as your expert deemed?

The link I quoted based it's calculations on;

"a garda who joins the force after changes made to pensions arrangements in 1995 and retires on a salary of €52,822."

Dyr · 03-11-2016 01:22PM

tayto lover wrote: »

How many farmers, fishermen etc were beaten up or shot dead for being farmers, fishermen etc.
Rubbish argument.

If someone claims a certain profession is the most dangerous in the country when it is not then my point a great argument. It's the very best argument in those circumstances. An absolute corker of an argument.

In New York being a bin man is more dangerous than being a police officer. Just a fun fact.

Conmc88 · 03-11-2016 01:24PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Conmc88 wrote: »

possibly not, but 176 people still died? hence farming is statistically the most dangerous job? what is confusing you about this?

Because they were not targeted by anyone for doing their job like the garda members were.

but statistically speaking farming is more dangerous? what is the difference in how some one dies? statistically the mortality and injury rate is higher in other industries, this is all i am stating so for the gardai to use it as a reasoning for more pay is pointless? then we should pay fisher men and farmers more dude to the dangers involved in there work or construction workers....

Ted111 · 03-11-2016 01:25PM

Is there some objectively fair income that each worker should receive?
Who should decide the criteria?
Or should the market decide, inclusive of the outcome of industrial action.

Or why isn't everyone entitled to an equal share of the earths resources as proposed by the crazy lefties?

Padraig Mor · 03-11-2016 01:29PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Averages don't work when the deviation is so wide.

Says.......you? Perhaps you could list your experience of statistics and compare it to the experts in the CSO? Or even just explain to us what deviation it is you refer to?

Your source claimed that Gardaí contribute only €110,000 to their pension. The pension levy alone over 30 years on the CSO stated salary you've all been relying on would come to over €120,000. So if the pension levy alone contributes more than €110,000 and that is only one of the deductions Gardaí pay, how can you say that Gardaí only contribute €110,000 to the pension?

Perhaps because the pension levy has only been in place for, what, 6/7 years?

thebaz · 03-11-2016 01:32PM

I thought it was illegal for Garda to strike ?

Why if it is such a deplorable job , do so many want to apply ?

Surely certain essential jobs , terms of employment should be you can't strike, I know in the private sector you have to sign up to many conditions, including the right NOT to strike -.

Why do so many public servants have more rights than a McDonalds or Aldi employees ?

mikhail · 03-11-2016 01:35PM

On an weekly basis, gardaí are the best paid public sector workers by a distance. They earned on average €1,304 per week in the second quarter of this year (or €67,808 on an annual, 52-week basis). That compares with an average of €906 across the entire public sector and €645 across the private sector. It is worth underscoring the point: average Garda weekly pay is currently almost 50pc higher than across the rest of the public sector. It is 102pc higher than the average in the private sector.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-obrien/dan-obrien-facts-about-how-much-garda-are-really-paid-must-be-central-in-talks-35184317.html

Zzippy · 03-11-2016 02:00PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Averages don't work when the deviation is so wide.

Your source says the Gardaí only contribute 110,000 to the pension pot. The pension levy alone over 30 years would equal more than that, and that's only one deductions made for the purpose of pension each week. So your sources calculations are already debunked with a minimal amount of effort.

Let's look at the value she puts on it. It's been stated in your source that Garda pensions are worth 79k and 26k per year. Your source puts the value of the pension at 1.12m. In order to obtain that value from a pension a Garda would have to love 40 years past retirement age (ie 1.12m - 79k all divided by 26k). Since the minimum retirement age is 55 that would make the Garda 95 by the time they have gotten 1.12m from their pension, 17 years past the average lifespan of an Irish man, 27 years past the average lifespan of an emergency worker.

So you can see why I don't believe the figures you present are not worth considering.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

All I can see is you clearly don't understand how pension funding works and are basing your statements on uninformed opinion.

Gardai pensions are gold plated. The figures I provided prove this.

You cannot offer any contradiction to these figures beyond your uninformed opinions. YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.

Actually, both of you are wrong. That figure of 26k includes the State contributory pension of 12k, which gardai, like other public servants, do not receive on top of their pension. It's easy to make a pension seem gold plated when you include a social welfare payment that other people get on top of their pension. Reduce the 26k by 12k and you get an actual pension of 14k.
Let's add in the fact that public servants do not get the OAP part of their pension until they reach 66, like everyone else, so from retirement age to 66 they have to survive on 14k a year and sign on or find alternative employment. That could be up to 11 years. Note some public employers have discretion to pay a supplementary pension to top up the pension until the person qualifies for the OAP. I do not know if this is the case with the gardai.

Let's take a garda retiring now at 55. The CSO life expectancy tables give a life expectancy of 26 years for a male aged 55 years. Let's say he receives the lump sum of 79k. He then receives a pension of 14k a year until he is 66, which totals 154k. After that he receives a pension of 14k plus 12k OAP until he dies at 81. That equals a pension of 210k plus the OAP of 180k. As the OAP is received by everyone, public and private, who has paid their stamps, it is disingenuous to include that in the pension.

Lump sum 79k + 154k + 210k = 443k. Nowhere near 1.1 million.

Even if you do want to be disingenuous and add the OAP, it gives a total pension of 623k. Still half a million short of the figures quoted above. Even if the gardai do receive the top up until they qualify for the OAP, it comes to 755k. Still a long way short of 1.1 million.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.

QED

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 02:00PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Provide a link...

The link I quoted based it's calculations on;

"a garda who joins the force after changes made to pensions arrangements in 1995 and retires on a salary of €52,822."

I did the actual calculations for you. I based them on your figures and the salary figure provided by another poster. Why would I provide a link to anything?

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Says.......you? Perhaps you could list your experience of statistics and compare it to the experts in the CSO? Or even just explain to us what deviation it is you refer to?

Just degree level I'm afraid. As I already explained, there are some Gardaí who only get a few hours overtime per year and others who get up to a hundred a month. I haven't heard a single reasonable argument as to why the overtime figure should be included in average earnings when it is so varied and it is based on doing additional work outside the standard.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Perhaps because the pension levy has only been in place for, what, 6/7 years?

Indeed. What's your point? We should not include it when calculating anything? Either it's a reduction in salary or a pension contribution. Pick your poison. But you can't simply make it disappear and pretend it doesn;t affect the earnings.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 02:06PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I did the actual calculations for you. I based them on your figures and the salary figure provided by another poster. Why would I provide a link to anything?

You quoted the CSO I wanted you to provide a link to backup that quote.

In any case the discrepancy between my linked figures and your calculations are down to my linked report basing it's calculations on a Garda who joined in 1995 and retired on a salary of just under 53k.

Do you accept the figures are correct now?

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 02:09PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You quoted the CSO I wanted you to provide a link to backup that quote.

In any case the discrepancy between my linked figures and your calculations are down to my linked report basing it's calculations on a Garda who joined in 1995 and retired on a salary of just under 53k.

Do you accept the figures are correct now?

Of course not. The overall valuation of the pension and the overall contribution of a Garda are both wrong. There is nothing right about the figures.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 02:10PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Actually, both of you are wrong. That figure of 26k includes the State contributory pension of 12k, which gardai, like other public servants, do not receive on top of their pension. It's easy to make a pension seem gold plated when you include a social welfare payment that other people get on top of their pension. Reduce the 26k by 12k and you get an actual pension of 14k.
Let's add in the fact that public servants do not get the OAP part of their pension until they reach 66, like everyone else, so from retirement age to 66 they have to survive on 14k a year and sign on or find alternative employment. That could be up to 11 years. Note some public employers have discretion to pay a supplementary pension to top up the pension until the person qualifies for the OAP. I do not know if this is the case with the gardai.

Let's take a garda retiring now at 55. The CSO life expectancy tables give a life expectancy of 26 years for a male aged 55 years. Let's say he receives the lump sum of 79k. He then receives a pension of 14k a year until he is 66, which totals 154k. After that he receives a pension of 14k plus 12k OAP until he dies at 81. That equals a pension of 210k plus the OAP of 180k. As the OAP is received by everyone, public and private, who has paid their stamps, it is disingenuous to include that in the pension.

Lump sum 79k + 154k + 210k = 443k. Nowhere near 1.1 million.

Even if you do want to be disingenuous and add the OAP, it gives a total pension of 623k. Still half a million short of the figures quoted above. Even if the gardai do receive the top up until they qualify for the OAP, it comes to 755k. Still a long way short of 1.1 million.

Please provide a link to backup your claim that Gardai cannot claim the state pension portion of their full pension until they are 66?

I do not believe that is the case. AS I understand it the can retire on FULL pension after 30 years.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 02:13PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Of course not. The overall valuation of the pension and the overall contribution of a Garda are both wrong. There is nothing right about the figures.

They are not wrong. No one has provided any evidence to backup the claim that the figures are incorrect.

Gardai are well paid and their pensions are gold plated.

Boggy Turf · 03-11-2016 02:23PM

The Gardaí would be way better off trying to repair their awful reputation than being greedy. They have been exposed as corrupt on many occasions in recent years, from the top down, and their treatment of whistleblowers was and continues to be a disgrace.

On the pensions, I don't think most people realise how generous they are. I actually don't think the state will be able to afford them.

hmmm · 03-11-2016 02:30PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Lump sum 79k + 154k + 210k = 443k. Nowhere near 1.1 million.

That's not how pensions work. The company (in this case the government) supplying the pension has to account for:
1. Pensioners who live much longer than the average
2. Pension for spouses (do Garda spouses get a pension if their partner dies?)
3. Investment returns.

I'm inclined to take the figures produced by professionals rather than your back of an envelope calculations.

All this could be solved of course if the public sector agreed to move to defined contribution pensions!

Zzippy · 03-11-2016 02:31PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Please provide a link to backup your claim that Gardai cannot claim the state pension portion of their full pension until they are 66?

I do not believe that is the case. AS I understand it the can retire on FULL pension after 30 years.

I said in my post that I did not know if they can or not. Find a link yourself if you want to prove it one way or the other.
My experience of other sectors of the public sector is that some can, some cannot. Public servants born after 1961 do not qualify for the OAP until 68 now. I know public sector workers who have been told they will not reveive a top up and will have to sign on or find alternative employment between 65 and 68. They have not been offered the choice of working until 68 but are exploring that option.

My point stands, you are including the OAP in the garda pension, at least post age 66. That is not a valid point, as the gardai have paid their PRSI contributions the same as all employees, and the OAP is rolled into their pension, unlike the private sector worker, who receives it as a separate payment to their own pension. There is only one reason to do that and that is to make the garda pension appear inflated by comparison, or "gold-plated" as you like to call it.

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 02:33PM

Bambi wrote: »

If someone claims a certain profession is the most dangerous in the country when it is not then my point a great argument. It's the very best argument in those circumstances. An absolute corker of an argument.

In New York being a bin man is more dangerous than being a police officer. Just a fun fact.

A driver would be the most dangerous job if that was the case as loads of people are killed on the road.
My point that none or few of them are killed deliberately by criminals still stands.

The_Kew_Tour · 03-11-2016 02:39PM

Let them strike away and don't pay them

They do **** all anyway

AudreyHepburn · 03-11-2016 02:39PM

tayto lover wrote: »

A driver would be the most dangerous job if that was the case as loads of people are killed on the road.
My point that none or few of them are killed deliberately by criminals still stands.

You'll find it doesn't stand up at all;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Garda%C3%AD_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

The level of begrudgery, disrespect and hatred towards our police force shocks me sometimes.

They deserve every extra penny they can get.

Boggy Turf · 03-11-2016 02:44PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Let them strike away and don't pay them

They do **** all anyway

I am starting to think the same. They have disappeared from rural areas. They are very hard to get a hold of - for example when there is a minor car accident. Their crime solving abilities seem to be very poor - they'll admit that themselves. They also seem to waste a lot of time for VIPs and events. They are good at shooting fish in a barrel in pointless speed checks i.e. places where the limit is stupidly low and there are never accidents.

AudreyHepburn · 03-11-2016 02:44PM

Bambi wrote: »

Gardai don't rank near the top of most dangerous jobs, they would be, farming construction and fisheries. All far more thankless and lacking the prestige and benefits of being a garda

What prestige and benefits?

They deal with the dregs of society on a daily basis and get nothing but ridicule and abuse for it.

It is difficult and dangerous job whether you like it or not.

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 02:46PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

You'll find it doesn't stand up at all;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Garda%C3%AD_killed_in_the_line_of_duty

The level of begrudgery, disrespect and hatred towards our police force shocks me sometimes.

They deserve every extra penny they can get.

I worked in a mine for a year and 3 lads were killed that same year.
None of them were murdered though.
Two garda members murdered in my area in the last couple of years because they were guards.

Boggy Turf · 03-11-2016 02:46PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

They deal with the dregs of society on a daily basis and get nothing but ridicule and abuse for it.

It is difficult and dangerous job whether you like it or not.

Very very few of them have to deal with the "dregs of society" or find themselves in any danger whatsoever.

Dyr · 03-11-2016 02:47PM

tayto lover wrote: »

A driver would be the most dangerous job if that was the case as loads of people are killed on the road.
My point that none or few of them are killed deliberately by criminals still stands.

Yeah that's not how statistics work, "my fatal injury was far more worser than yours"

Not much of a comfort when you're drowning and or taking a header off a scaffold either.

We've put the misconception to bed. Move along.

AudreyHepburn · 03-11-2016 02:48PM

Boggy Turf wrote: »

Very very few of them have to deal with the "dregs of society" or find themselves in any danger whatsoever.

And you know this for a fact do you? Have you figures to back this up?

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 02:48PM

Bambi wrote: »

Yeah that's not how statistics work, "my fatal injury was far more worser than yours"

Not much of a comfort when you're drowning and or taking a header off a scaffold either.

We've put the misconception to bed. Move along.

Murder is murder. You should know that. I wouldn't do their job and I bet you wouldn't either.

Boggy Turf · 03-11-2016 02:49PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And you know this for a fact do you? Have you figures to back this up?

You back up that it's a "difficult and dangerous job" first - and please use guards outside Dublin as your sample.
We all know guards hate to be stationed in Dublin but they usually find a way out.

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 02:50PM

Boggy Turf wrote: »

You back up that it's a "difficult and dangerous job" first - and please use guards outside Dublin as your sample.

Two shot dead near my home in the last few years for a start.

The Garda Strike

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