suicide_circus wrote: » OK so we can agree on all that. Now, where is the money going to come from for these pay rises? Do you want to borrow the money on the the international markets adding to our already enormous national debt? Which services do you think should see funding cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay? Which other civil servants do you think should see pay cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay? Which additional taxes would you like to see in order to raise money for additional garda pay? I suppose we could increase corporation tax jeopardising tens of thousands of jobs...we could keep the usc...we could pay water charges so general taxation could be used to pay gardai more instead of on our crumbling water infrastructure. It's all fine and dandy to support the gardai in their pay claim but doing so without explaining where the money for this (and for the pay claims of ALL public servants which will surely follow if the Gardai are successful) will come from is a nonsense.
Conmc88 wrote: » possibly not, but 176 people still died? hence farming is statistically the most dangerous job? what is confusing you about this?
Little CuChulainn wrote: » A link? It's basic maths. 2.5% on 15k to 20k and 10% on 20k to 60k. 5000 * 2.5% = 125 40,000 * 10% = 4000 Yearly deduction 4,125 Times 30 years = €123,750 So that's €123,750 from the pension levy alone over 30 years. How then is the contribution worth only 110k as your expert deemed?
tayto lover wrote: » How many farmers, fishermen etc were beaten up or shot dead for being farmers, fishermen etc. Rubbish argument.
tayto lover wrote: » Conmc88 wrote: » possibly not, but 176 people still died? hence farming is statistically the most dangerous job? what is confusing you about this? Because they were not targeted by anyone for doing their job like the garda members were.
Little CuChulainn wrote: » Averages don't work when the deviation is so wide.
Your source claimed that Gardaí contribute only €110,000 to their pension. The pension levy alone over 30 years on the CSO stated salary you've all been relying on would come to over €120,000. So if the pension levy alone contributes more than €110,000 and that is only one of the deductions Gardaí pay, how can you say that Gardaí only contribute €110,000 to the pension?
On an weekly basis, gardaí are the best paid public sector workers by a distance. They earned on average €1,304 per week in the second quarter of this year (or €67,808 on an annual, 52-week basis). That compares with an average of €906 across the entire public sector and €645 across the private sector. It is worth underscoring the point: average Garda weekly pay is currently almost 50pc higher than across the rest of the public sector. It is 102pc higher than the average in the private sector.
Little CuChulainn wrote: » Averages don't work when the deviation is so wide. Your source says the Gardaí only contribute 110,000 to the pension pot. The pension levy alone over 30 years would equal more than that, and that's only one deductions made for the purpose of pension each week. So your sources calculations are already debunked with a minimal amount of effort. Let's look at the value she puts on it. It's been stated in your source that Garda pensions are worth 79k and 26k per year. Your source puts the value of the pension at 1.12m. In order to obtain that value from a pension a Garda would have to love 40 years past retirement age (ie 1.12m - 79k all divided by 26k). Since the minimum retirement age is 55 that would make the Garda 95 by the time they have gotten 1.12m from their pension, 17 years past the average lifespan of an Irish man, 27 years past the average lifespan of an emergency worker. So you can see why I don't believe the figures you present are not worth considering.
EndaHonesty wrote: » All I can see is you clearly don't understand how pension funding works and are basing your statements on uninformed opinion. Gardai pensions are gold plated. The figures I provided prove this. You cannot offer any contradiction to these figures beyond your uninformed opinions. YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.
EndaHonesty wrote: » YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.
EndaHonesty wrote: » Provide a link... The link I quoted based it's calculations on; "a garda who joins the force after changes made to pensions arrangements in 1995 and retires on a salary of €52,822."
Padraig Mor wrote: » Says.......you? Perhaps you could list your experience of statistics and compare it to the experts in the CSO? Or even just explain to us what deviation it is you refer to?
Padraig Mor wrote: » Perhaps because the pension levy has only been in place for, what, 6/7 years?
Little CuChulainn wrote: » I did the actual calculations for you. I based them on your figures and the salary figure provided by another poster. Why would I provide a link to anything?
EndaHonesty wrote: » You quoted the CSO I wanted you to provide a link to backup that quote. In any case the discrepancy between my linked figures and your calculations are down to my linked report basing it's calculations on a Garda who joined in 1995 and retired on a salary of just under 53k. Do you accept the figures are correct now?
Zzippy wrote: » Actually, both of you are wrong. That figure of 26k includes the State contributory pension of 12k, which gardai, like other public servants, do not receive on top of their pension. It's easy to make a pension seem gold plated when you include a social welfare payment that other people get on top of their pension. Reduce the 26k by 12k and you get an actual pension of 14k. Let's add in the fact that public servants do not get the OAP part of their pension until they reach 66, like everyone else, so from retirement age to 66 they have to survive on 14k a year and sign on or find alternative employment. That could be up to 11 years. Note some public employers have discretion to pay a supplementary pension to top up the pension until the person qualifies for the OAP. I do not know if this is the case with the gardai. Let's take a garda retiring now at 55. The CSO life expectancy tables give a life expectancy of 26 years for a male aged 55 years. Let's say he receives the lump sum of 79k. He then receives a pension of 14k a year until he is 66, which totals 154k. After that he receives a pension of 14k plus 12k OAP until he dies at 81. That equals a pension of 210k plus the OAP of 180k. As the OAP is received by everyone, public and private, who has paid their stamps, it is disingenuous to include that in the pension. Lump sum 79k + 154k + 210k = 443k. Nowhere near 1.1 million. Even if you do want to be disingenuous and add the OAP, it gives a total pension of 623k. Still half a million short of the figures quoted above. Even if the gardai do receive the top up until they qualify for the OAP, it comes to 755k. Still a long way short of 1.1 million.
Little CuChulainn wrote: » Of course not. The overall valuation of the pension and the overall contribution of a Garda are both wrong. There is nothing right about the figures.
Zzippy wrote: » Lump sum 79k + 154k + 210k = 443k. Nowhere near 1.1 million.
EndaHonesty wrote: » Please provide a link to backup your claim that Gardai cannot claim the state pension portion of their full pension until they are 66? I do not believe that is the case. AS I understand it the can retire on FULL pension after 30 years.
Bambi wrote: » If someone claims a certain profession is the most dangerous in the country when it is not then my point a great argument. It's the very best argument in those circumstances. An absolute corker of an argument. In New York being a bin man is more dangerous than being a police officer. Just a fun fact.
tayto lover wrote: » A driver would be the most dangerous job if that was the case as loads of people are killed on the road.My point that none or few of them are killed deliberately by criminals still stands.
The_Kew_Tour wrote: » Let them strike away and don't pay them They do **** all anyway
Bambi wrote: » Gardai don't rank near the top of most dangerous jobs, they would be, farming construction and fisheries. All far more thankless and lacking the prestige and benefits of being a garda
AudreyHepburn wrote: » You'll find it doesn't stand up at all;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Garda%C3%AD_killed_in_the_line_of_duty The level of begrudgery, disrespect and hatred towards our police force shocks me sometimes. They deserve every extra penny they can get.
AudreyHepburn wrote: » They deal with the dregs of society on a daily basis and get nothing but ridicule and abuse for it. It is difficult and dangerous job whether you like it or not.
tayto lover wrote: » A driver would be the most dangerous job if that was the case as loads of people are killed on the road. My point that none or few of them are killed deliberately by criminals still stands.
Boggy Turf wrote: » Very very few of them have to deal with the "dregs of society" or find themselves in any danger whatsoever.
Bambi wrote: » Yeah that's not how statistics work, "my fatal injury was far more worser than yours" Not much of a comfort when you're drowning and or taking a header off a scaffold either. We've put the misconception to bed. Move along.
AudreyHepburn wrote: » And you know this for a fact do you? Have you figures to back this up?
Boggy Turf wrote: » You back up that it's a "difficult and dangerous job" first - and please use guards outside Dublin as your sample.
