The Garda Strike

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 10:54AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

My mistake, it was a different poster that posted like you. My point still stands about the misrepresentation of CSO figures though.

Gardaí have never been involved in creating any pension system.

Still waiting on those figures you use to justify the gold plated label.

The Indo have it...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

On retirement after 30 years the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, and an annual pension of €26,411.
Ms Daly said the value of this retirement lump sum was €1.12m, of which the State will have contributed €1m.

But the garda will only have contributed €110,000, or 10pc, to their pension even after the imposition of the pensions levy, according to research carried out by actuary Fiona Daly of Rubicon Investment Consulting.

Now, you offer a link and "real figures" to contradict these figures...

SEPT 23 1989 · 03-11-2016 10:55AM

StiffOldMan wrote: »

Go away.

What kind of hours and after how many years service do they get this type of money.. complete bending of the facts there. Overtime is not guaranteed either

in the real world you start from the bottom on small money do your time put in the hours and work your way up

problem in the real world is there is no guaranteed lotto win at the end of your career

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 10:56AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

When have Gardaí ever opposed a strike?

There are loads of reports from around the world that back it up. That's just the current most accepted one. Do you think retired police officers in Ireland differ greatly from retired police officers in the U.S? Why is that? Why do you think the study would not apply here?

Loads of reports?

Post a link to one that's actually relevant to European unarmed police?...

Conmc88 · 03-11-2016 10:59AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Gardai can retire on full pension after 30 years of service.

So they can be claiming their pension for as much as 15 years earlier than the rest of the public service.

15 years of ~ 25,000- 30,000 is ~ 350,000- 450,000 more.

Do you not think that is significant?

Some Garda can retire after 30 years. Some Garda retire as soon as possible. Yes you are right that Garda can sometimes claim their pensions much earlier than other public sector workers but it is a proven fact that a police officers average lifespan is more than 10 years lower than the average person. So you'll be happy to know it all balances out.

As was pointed out above, this is American statistics, christ above in Ireland there have been more deaths in the construction industry than the Gardai for crying out loud will give me a break.

Dyr · 03-11-2016 11:00AM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The Indo have it...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

Now, you offer a link and "real figures" to contradict these figures...

80k lump sum? **** me

suicide_circus · 03-11-2016 11:10AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If any group deserves a pay rise it's the Gardai. They do the most dangerous and thankless job of all.

That people are so willing to deny and/or ignore that says more for the general public than AGS.

I'd love to see the begrudgers try to do the job, even for one day. They'd fall at the first hurdle.

OK so we can agree on all that.

Now, where is the money going to come from for these pay rises?

Do you want to borrow the money on the the international markets adding to our already enormous national debt?

Which services do you think should see funding cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay?

Which other civil servants do you think should see pay cuts in order to redirect money towards garda pay?

Which additional taxes would you like to see in order to raise money for additional garda pay? I suppose we could increase corporation tax jeopardising tens of thousands of jobs...we could keep the usc...we could pay water charges so general taxation could be used to pay gardai more instead of on our crumbling water infrastructure.

It's all fine and dandy to support the gardai in their pay claim but doing so without explaining where the money for this (and for the pay claims of ALL public servants which will surely follow if the Gardai are successful) will come from is a nonsense.

VinLieger · 03-11-2016 11:24AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's all fine and dandy to support the gardai in their pay claim but doing so without explaining where the money for this (and for the pay claims of ALL public servants which will surely follow if the Gardai are successful) will come from is a nonsense.

Pretty sure any answer your gonna get is gonna amount to pretty much - "the rich"

ohnonotgmail · 03-11-2016 11:35AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Pretty sure any answer your gonna get is gonna amount to pretty much - "the rich"

unfortunately the standard definition of "rich" used by the free houses for all brigade is anybody who earns slightly more than they do.

Padraig Mor · 03-11-2016 11:50AM

StiffOldMan wrote: »

Go away.

What kind of hours and after how many years service do they get this type of money.. complete bending of the facts there. Overtime is not guaranteed either

Try reading - it's an average of all Gardaí. Average pay for 'rank and file' (i.e. Garda rank) is approx. €60k incl allowances, overtime, etc.

It's impossible to have a debate on Garda pay without establishing exactly what they are currently paid - which is far in excess of what most people presume they're paid.

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 11:50AM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The Indo have it...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-pension-worth-11m-26518918.html

Now, you offer a link and "real figures" to contradict these figures...

They aren;t real figures. That's an estimate of market value and a completely incorrect estimate of contribution. There's literally nothing to substantiate those figures.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Loads of reports?

Post a link to one that's actually relevant to European unarmed police?...

Conmc88 wrote: »

As was pointed out above, this is American statistics, christ above in Ireland there have been more deaths in the construction industry than the Gardai for crying out loud will give me a break.

I chose that study because it is the most up to date and comprehensive and makes comparisons to other studies including ones from around Europe. If you'd bothered your hole to read it you would have seen it. Here is an extract from the one from Rome. You've not stated why you think the results would be different here than there.

But for the sake of it i will look for more localised figures for you.

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 11:52AM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Try reading - it's an average of all Gardaí. Average pay for 'rank and file' (i.e. Garda rank) is approx. €60k incl allowances, overtime, etc.

It's impossible to have a debate on Garda pay without establishing exactly what they are currently paid - which is far in excess of what most people presume they're paid.

Why would you include overtime? That's like adding in a second job and saying your overpaid for the first one. Overtime is extra money done for extra work. There is no legitimate reason it should be included in calculations of average earnings unless you also take account of the extra hours work.

oppenheimer1 · 03-11-2016 11:55AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How are the unions the only ones who have the figures? And if that is indeed correct, how are you so certain of your claims when you have nothing to substantiate them.

Have you any kind of source on that?

It would never happen for the same reason that Gardaí cannot negotiate a separate agreement. The larger civil cervice and public sector unions wouldn't allow it. There's plenty of Gardaí that would rather arrange their own pension than have six separate deductions every week from their pay slip.

What do you mean it never is? This is the first time the Gardaí have gotten near any kind of official talks and it took a strike threat to do it.

You are the one calling the pensions gold plated. You answer the questions. Surely you know the answers if you are in a position to call them gold plated.

How much do you think an annuity of €25k would cost, for someone aged 55?

Padraig Mor · 03-11-2016 12:01PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Why would you include overtime? That's like adding in a second job and saying your overpaid for the first one. Overtime is extra money done for extra work. There is no legitimate reason it should be included in calculations of average earnings unless you also take account of the extra hours work.

What a bizarre post - "we should ignore premium payments because...errrr.....". Overtime is included because Gardaí are paid for it - the CSO figures (for all groups) are based on payments actually received (including the high number of allowances Gardaí also receive - for no extra work - and not just overtime) as opposed to headline salary figures which are often significantly lower (and are the misleading figures used by unions in their propaganda). The CSO figures also DO take account of the extra hours work in their hourly pay calculations.

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 12:10PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

What a bizarre post - "we should ignore premium payments because...errrr.....". Overtime is included because Gardaí are paid for it - the CSO figures (for all groups) are based on payments actually received (including the high number of allowances Gardaí also receive - for no extra work - and not just overtime) as opposed to headline salary figures which are often significantly lower (and are the misleading figures used by unions in their propaganda). The CSO figures also DO take account of the extra hours work in their hourly pay calculations.

What's bizarre is including overtime like it's some kind of guaranteed bonus that everyone gets. Overtime varies massively from Garda to Garda with some getting only a few hours a year and others getting up to a hundred a month. And when you don't take account of the extra hours worked you aren't comparing like with like when it comes to comparing salaries. Yes a Garda working 25% more hours might get 25% more pay but that doesn't mean you compare the person earning the extra money for extra work to the person who earns the normal salary for normal hours.

Padraig Mor · 03-11-2016 12:13PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What's bizarre is including overtime like it's some kind of guaranteed bonus that everyone gets. Overtime varies massively from Garda to Garda with some getting only a few hours a year and others getting up to a hundred a month.

Hence the use of averages.

And when you don't take account of the extra hours worked you aren't comparing like with like when it comes to comparing salaries.

As I said, the CSO do take account of the extra hours worked.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 12:18PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

They aren;t real figures. That's an estimate of market value and a completely incorrect estimate of contribution. There's literally nothing to substantiate those figures.

They are figures from an independent financial professional that quantify how much it would cost for a private individual to finance a similar pension to a Garda.

THE onus is on you to provide a link and "real figures" to contradict these figures.

Can you provide this information?

If not you should stop commenting on the subject.

Dyr · 03-11-2016 12:18PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If any group deserves a pay rise it's the Gardai. They do the most dangerous and thankless job of all.

That people are so willing to deny and/or ignore that says more for the general public than AGS.

I'd love to see the begrudgers try to do the job, even for one day. They'd fall at the first hurdle.

Gardai don't rank near the top of most dangerous jobs, they would be, farming construction and fisheries. All far more thankless and lacking the prestige and benefits of being a garda

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 12:35PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Hence the use of averages.

As I said, the CSO do take account of the extra hours worked.

Averages don't work when the deviation is so wide.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

They are figures from an independent financial professional that quantify how much it would cost for a private individual to finance a similar pension to a Garda.

THE onus is on you to provide a link and "real figures" to contradict these figures.

Can you provide this information?

If not you should stop commenting on the subject.

Your source says the Gardaí only contribute 110,000 to the pension pot. The pension levy alone over 30 years would equal more than that, and that's only one deductions made for the purpose of pension each week. So your sources calculations are already debunked with a minimal amount of effort.

Let's look at the value she puts on it. It's been stated in your source that Garda pensions are worth 79k and 26k per year. Your source puts the value of the pension at 1.12m. In order to obtain that value from a pension a Garda would have to love 40 years past retirement age (ie 1.12m - 79k all divided by 26k). Since the minimum retirement age is 55 that would make the Garda 95 by the time they have gotten 1.12m from their pension, 17 years past the average lifespan of an Irish man, 27 years past the average lifespan of an emergency worker.

So you can see why I don't believe the figures you present are not worth considering.

Bambi wrote: »

Gardai don't rank near the top of most dangerous jobs, they would be, farming construction and fisheries. All far more thankless and lacking the prestige and benefits of being a garda

Only if mortality is the sole statistic by which you measure.

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 12:43PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your source says the Gardaí only contribute 110,000 to the pension pot. The pension levy alone over 30 years would equal more than that, and that's only one deductions made for the purpose of pension each week. So your sources calculations are already debunked with a minimal amount of effort.

Let's look at the value she puts on it. It's been stated in your source that Garda pensions are worth 79k and 26k per year. Your source puts the value of the pension at 1.12m. In order to obtain that value from a pension a Garda would have to love 40 years past retirement age (ie 1.12m - 79k all divided by 26k). Since the minimum retirement age is 55 that would make the Garda 95 by the time they have gotten 1.12m from their pension, 17 years past the average lifespan of an Irish man, 27 years past the average lifespan of an emergency worker.

So you can see why I don't believe the figures you present are not worth considering.

All I can see is you clearly don't understand how pension funding works and are basing your statements on uninformed opinion.

Gardai pensions are gold plated. The figures I provided prove this.

You cannot offer any contradiction to these figures beyond your uninformed opinions. YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 12:50PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

All I can see is you clearly don't understand how pension funding works and are basing your statements on uninformed opinion.

Gardai pensions are gold plated. The figures I provided prove this.

You cannot offer any contradiction to these figures beyond your uninformed opinions. YOU should stop commenting on something you don't understand.

I've contradicted all of them. You can put whatever market values you want on the pension but if you can't physically get out the amount it's valued at then it's not worth a ****e. And if you clearly put in more money than your contribution is valued at then there is a serious problem there too. These aren't normal pensions they are effectively saving accounts with gernerous interest rates.

Dyr · 03-11-2016 12:51PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Only if mortality is the sole statistic by which you measure.

You should get onto the Health and Safety Authority and inform them they're wrong

Between this and only measuring base pay, you have a weird approach towards statistics, but then guards always did, with their 50 millionty euro drug busts

Sierra Oscar · 03-11-2016 12:55PM

Bambi wrote: »

You should get onto the Health and Safety Authority and inform them they're wrong

The Health & Safety Authority do not take into account injuries. You are specifically referring to mortality rates.

Also there are roughly 140,000 farmers in Ireland as opposed to 14,000 Gardai.

One in 5 gardaí injured in line of duty

Department of Justice figures show 2,218 members of the force have suffered injuries in their work between January 2011 and October 2015

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 12:59PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I've contradicted all of them. You can put whatever market values you want on the pension but if you can't physically get out the amount it's valued at then it's not worth a ****e. And if you clearly put in more money than your contribution is valued at then there is a serious problem there too. These aren't normal pensions they are effectively saving accounts with gernerous interest rates.

You haven't contradicted any of them. You've given your own uninformed OPINION of them.

Stop commenting on something you don't understand.

Conmc88 · 03-11-2016 01:04PM

[font=open_sansregular, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statistically speaking, farming is the most dangerous occupation in Ireland, with more than 1,000 injuries occuring on farms every year.In the past decade alone, 176 people have been killed on Irish farms.[/font]

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 01:05PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You haven't contradicted any of them. You've given your own uninformed OPINION of them.

Stop commenting on something you don't understand.

Your source claimed that Gardaí contribute only €110,000 to their pension. The pension levy alone over 30 years on the CSO stated salary you've all been relying on would come to over €120,000. So if the pension levy alone contributes more than €110,000 and that is only one of the deductions Gardaí pay, how can you say that Gardaí only contribute €110,000 to the pension?

EndaHonesty · 03-11-2016 01:08PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your source claimed that Gardaí contribute only €110,000 to their pension. The pension levy alone over 30 years on the CSO stated salary you've all been relying on would come to over €120,000. So if the pension levy alone contributes more than €110,000 and that is only one of the deductions Gardaí pay, how can you say that Gardaí only contribute €110,000 to the pension?

Provide a link to backup your claim...

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 01:13PM

Bambi wrote: »

Gardai don't rank near the top of most dangerous jobs, they would be, farming construction and fisheries. All far more thankless and lacking the prestige and benefits of being a garda

How many farmers, fishermen etc were beaten up or shot dead for being farmers, fishermen etc.
Rubbish argument.

Little CuChulainn · 03-11-2016 01:13PM

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Provide a link to backup your claim...

A link? It's basic maths. 2.5% on 15k to 20k and 10% on 20k to 60k.

5000 * 2.5% = 125
40,000 * 10% = 4000

Yearly deduction 4,125

Times 30 years = €123,750

So that's €123,750 from the pension levy alone over 30 years. How then is the contribution worth only 110k as your expert deemed?

tayto lover · 03-11-2016 01:14PM

Conmc88 wrote: »

[font=open_sansregular, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statistically speaking, farming is the most dangerous occupation in Ireland, with more than 1,000 injuries occuring on farms every year.In the past decade alone, 176 people have been killed on Irish farms.[/font]

Were they shot or beaten to death?

Conmc88 · 03-11-2016 01:18PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Conmc88 wrote: »

[font=open_sansregular, Helvetica, sans-serif]Statistically speaking, farming is the most dangerous occupation in Ireland, with more than 1,000 injuries occuring on farms every year.In the past decade alone, 176 people have been killed on Irish farms.[/font]

Were they shot or beaten to death?

possibly not, but 176 people still died? hence farming is statistically the most dangerous job? what is confusing you about this?

The Garda Strike

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