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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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  • #152
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    maregal wrote: »
    • Why do you think men are dropping out of society?
    Could you give an example of what "dropping out of society" entails, please? To the best of my knowledge I do not know anybody who has gone off radar.


  • #153
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    maregal wrote: »
    Is "females" a derogatory term now? It's hard to keep up with ever-changing SJW rulebook.

    There are situations where using female makes you sound like a klingon. Basically when you use it as a noun. These days the more sjw types object to it even when it is used as an adjective e.g female journalist.


  • #154
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    dark crystal wrote: »
    Which other forum has a thread with women blaming all men for their perceived ills in life?

    Take a look in the LL, you will find posters using exactly the language you are complaining about and not being called on it.
    Don't tend to look at much at all anymore as I don't want a card/ban as moderation seemed to get harder but here is a good example.
    Oh, I love the "what about men's issues?" brigade. Uh... you mean the issues imposed by the male politicians? Male CEOs? Male bankers and developers? Male directed movies? Male controlled media? Decisions made by male judges? Male bosses? The males who call each other out on being "pussies", "bitches", etc? ?

    So either Male/Female is acceptable to use or a lot of the posters here that are active on both those forums are more than a little hypocritical


  • #155
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Surely its better to reach out to them then and support a change in their thinking isn't it rather than further isolating them?

    I never said I wouldn't reach out to them. But it's difficult to want to when all you can see is the obvious hate.


  • #156
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Take a look in the LL, you will find posters using exactly the language you are complaining about and not being called on it.
    Don't tend to look at much at all anymore as I don't want a card/ban as moderation seemed to get harder but here is a good example.



    So either Male/Female is acceptable to use or a lot of the posters here that are active on both those forums are more than a little hypocritical

    I don't see anything wrong with that quote....using male and female in the context of jobs to differentiate between the sexes is normal.


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  • #157
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    PucaMama wrote: »
    I never said I wouldn't reach out to them. But it's difficult to want to when all you can see is the obvious hate.

    I don't think a woman reaching out to a man like that would be a good idea. I don't think he'd want to know.


  • #158
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that quote....using male and female in the context of jobs to differentiate between the sexes is normal.

    Any time male or female is used as a noun it tends to sounds odd to me e.g. 'the males who call each other out on being' but I think I managed to never learn any grammar in school so who knows.


  • #159
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that quote....using male and female in the context of jobs to differentiate between the sexes is normal.
    Male proud to be a chauvinist oppressor = good.

    Women

    No jobs related stuff here, not called out (quote from same place)


  • #160
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Take a look in the LL, you will find posters using exactly the language you are complaining about and not being called on it.
    Don't tend to look at much at all anymore as I don't want a card/ban as moderation seemed to get harder but here is a good example.



    So either Male/Female is acceptable to use or a lot of the posters here that are active on both those forums are more than a little hypocritical

    There is a different "tone" intended by the MGTOW type behind male vs how they mean "females". It's the psychology behind it. Male is everything in their eyes and female is reducing women to animals.


  • #161
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    No jobs related stuff here, not called out (quote from same place)

    And that's not okay either if it's a consistent and deliberate thing. I don't know the thread you are referring to but I'd like to think if someone posted like that regularly there they would get called out on it.


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  • #162
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Take a look in the LL, you will find posters using exactly the language you are complaining about and not being called on it.
    Don't tend to look at much at all anymore as I don't want a card/ban as moderation seemed to get harder but here is a good example.



    So either Male/Female is acceptable to use or a lot of the posters here that are active on both those forums are more than a little hypocritical

    I'm not sure what thread that is from, but I'd love to know the context in which it was written and the responses to it. I don't venture into TLL much myself, but have never seen threads of this type being entertained (or maybe I just missed them completely!).

    By the way, I didn't complain about this thread or call for it to be closed, but I do find it very hard to understand the rationale of blaming an entire gender for things that may have not gone your way in life.

    I am raising a son and two daughters and I would hate for any of them to grow up with such a hateful chip on their shoulder against an entire group of people they will have to share this planet with. Don't you think that's a really sad way to view the world?


  • #163
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    PucaMama wrote: »
    I never said I wouldn't reach out to them. But it's difficult to want to when all you can see is the obvious hate.

    But thats why we need spaces like this to an extent, I wouldn't ask somebody to try sympathize with a person that hates/distrusts them because of their gender, however it would be good if they weren't directly attacked so that users could help gradual change their mind rather than it being a self fulfilling cycle where they are attacked for their views and then retreat to spaces where harmful views are the norm and their viewpoint is simply reinforced and isolation increased


  • #164
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    mzungu wrote: »
    Must be why there are a zillion Japanese backpackers on the world circuit these days. Japan's loss is the worldwide hostel industries gain! :D



    Just to clarify, when I said that originally I was referring specifically to the MGTOW collective, and not the Japan situation.

    On a serious note, if the population does crash they have some crappy years ahead.

    I think I read somewhere that for every man in the US that is officially unemployed there are another 3 not looking for work or off the radar. maybe they work informally of in the grey economy or live with family. I'd imagine most of them have never heard the term but economics or society is creating this grouping.
    so I dont know, its a mature economy thing, germany is kind of the same, less and less people starting families, a mixture of moral hazard welfare, high taxes, high housing costs. As for Japan probably yeah but it would force reform which only seems to happen when you put people's feet to the fire.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #165
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    But thats why we need spaces like this to an extent, I wouldn't ask somebody to try sympathize with a person that hates/distrusts them because of their gender, however it would be good if they weren't directly attacked so that users could help gradual change their mind rather than it being a self fulfilling cycle where they are attacked for their views and then retreat to spaces where harmful views are the norm and their viewpoint is simply reinforced and isolation increased

    They are attacked because they are attacking. No one that spouts the rubbish I called delusional on here is open to seeing the truth.


  • #166
    FloatingVoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭FloatingVoter


    It's boring old me again. My, how this thread has disappeared up it's arse in an amusing way.
    So tonight I witnessed drunk lads talking to drunk ladies. All ages. You have not lived until you've seen a vampire get off with a zombie nun. And neither light of 60.
    AS for the crowd picture, I would imagine that there will be embarrassment, regrets, a baby and a lot of "..if I had said this instead of that" come the morning.
    Meanwhile I was involved in inventing a brand new Yorkshire dance, a treasure hunt for my lighter and absolutely no interest in me. Fail. Fail better.

    A recent suggestion was that I should buy a smartphone and go on Tinder. A pity as my uploading photos of George Clooney and showing up James Joyce tends to result in disappointment.

    I'm still only considering retiring from this weird game. On one night I am weary of the certain disappointment, On another, someone smiles and hope is back.

    Hope is a ****ing killer.


  • #167
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    PucaMama wrote: »
    There is a different "tone" intended by the MGTOW type behind male vs how they mean "females". It's the psychology behind it. Male is everything in their eyes and female is reducing women to animals.
    I find this happens with both sides of this particular debate. MGTOW and their use of the term "females", and Tumblr fourth wave brigade that obsesses over the "hetero white male". Both use it as a way of dehumanising the other.

    There are cases where it is used appropriately by the average Joe and Jane, but "female" and "male" are now used as a pejorative term by these zany parties that exist out there on the Internet. Thankfully it hasn't become as mainstream here as it has in the US.


  • #168
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    eviltwin wrote: »
    And that's not okay either if it's a consistent and deliberate thing. I don't know the thread you are referring to but I'd like to think if someone posted like that regularly there they would get called out on it.

    Its in a thread you commented on directly below it is one of your posts.
    I'm not sure how common it is now (I said I have nearly completely stopped looking at said forum) but it was definitely tolerated in this case .


  • #169
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    mzungu wrote: »
    I find this happens with both sides of this particular debate. MGTOW and their use of the term "females", and Tumblr fourth wave brigade that obsesses over the "hetero white male". Both use it as a way of dehumanising the other.

    There are cases where it is used appropriately, but "female" and "male" are now used as a pejorative by these parties. Thankfully it hasn't become as mainstream here as it has in the US.

    I hate the "white male" thing, probably has something to do with me being far removed from the sjw type. I'd love one to actually sit down and reason put what's wrong with being either male or white. Absolutely nothing in my eyes.


  • #170
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Its in a thread you commented on directly below it is one of your posts.
    I'm not sure how common it is now (I said I have nearly completely stopped looking at said forum) but it was definitely tolerated in this case .

    I still don't know the thread your on about. I'd imagine if it was one instance in isolation it just didn't register with me. If it was a consistent thing and used in the context of very anti men sentiment I'd absolutely have addressed it


  • #171
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    PucaMama wrote: »
    They are attacked because they are attacking. No one that spouts the rubbish I called delusional on here is open to seeing the truth.

    We don't know that though and we often don't tend to get a chance to find out. I'm not defending these guys views at all but I think a lot of it is likely born of hurt, rejection and loneliness , don't you think that they would be happier not having to go their own way (or even just an occasional mutually consensual hook up that clears the head).
    As men (because they probably won't listen to women for "reasons") we should be trying to show them how the opposite sex isn't bad and that the vast majority of men seem to be able to form fulfilling relationships with their partners.

    One thing thats striking about a lot of the PUA stuff is that its not necessarily targeted at men who just want notches on the bed post, it can be men who just want some female interaction but lack the social skills. I'm not saying PUA is a good thing but it shares the same root as MGTOW


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  • #172
    FloatingVoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,133 ✭✭✭FloatingVoter


    SJW , PUA, LL.....

    I genuinely have no idea ? Anybody enlighten me /us.


  • #173
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    We don't know that though and we often don't tend to get a chance to find out. I'm not defending these guys views at all but I think a lot of it is likely born of hurt, rejection and loneliness , don't you think that they would be happier not having to go their own way (or even just an occasional mutually consensual hook up that clears the head).
    As men (because they probably won't listen to women for "reasons") we should be trying to show them how the opposite sex isn't bad and that the vast majority of men seem to be able to form fulfilling relationships with their partners.

    One thing thats striking about a lot of the PUA stuff is that its not necessarily targeted at men who just want notches on the bed post, it can be men who just want some female interaction but lack the social skills. I'm not saying PUA is a good thing but it shares the same root as MGTOW

    A lot of women's reactions to the stuff MGTOW say is often out of being hurt too. It's not pleasant to hear you are blamed for someone else's bad time in life because of your gender.


  • #174
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    PucaMama wrote: »
    I hate the "white male" thing, probably has something to do with me being far removed from the sjw type. I'd love one to actually sit down and reason put what's wrong with being either male or white. Absolutely nothing in my eyes.
    That's identity politics for you, a never-ending rabbit hole that constantly outdoes itself on the silliness scale! May it never enter the mainstream on these shores.


  • #175
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    mzungu wrote: »
    That's identity politics for you, a never-ending rabbit hole that constantly outdoes itself on the silliness scale! May it never enter the mainstream on these shores.

    Unfortunately it's well on its way.


  • #176
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    FloatingVoter wrote: »
    SJW , PUA, LL.....

    I genuinely have no idea ? Anybody enlighten me /us.

    SJW - Social Justice Warrior
    PUA - Pick Up Artist
    LL - Ladies Lounge


  • #177
    Mr Arrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Mr Arrior


    I'm 22 and fall into the early 20's category (obviously lol) I have had 0 luck with women, never had a GF even tho I've been interested in one since I was 13. I used to be very shy but not so anymore. I'd class myself as a quiet guy as regards trying to get to know women but when I know ya I'm mental lol
    I do not blame women as its my fault im on the quieter side. When it comes to the louder or quieter guys. The louder will win a woman's attention 9 times out of 10. And theres plenty of loud fellas my age.
    I'm not gonna opt out of society, not a chance cos I want marriage and kids someday in the future and simply I've got to much love inside me not to shower some woman with it.


  • #178
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Mr Arrior wrote: »
    I'm 22 and fall into the early 20's category (obviously lol) I have had 0 luck with women, never had a GF even tho I've been interested in one since I was 13. I used to be very shy but not so anymore. I'd class myself as a quiet guy as regards trying to get to know women but when I know ya I'm mental lol
    I do not blame women as its my fault im on the quieter side. When it comes to the louder or quieter guys. The louder will win a woman's attention. And theres plenty of loud fellas my age.
    I'm not gonna opt out if society, not a chance cos I want marriage and kids someday in the future and simply I've got to much love inside me not to shower some woman with it.

    Nothing wrong with a quiet fella some women like myself can't stand loud obnoxious people. Have you tried groups? I don't know if you like to read or what music you like etc but look even for facebook groups about them and get chatting some local groups meet up


  • #179
    Icemancometh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    PucaMama wrote: »
    A lot of women's reactions to the stuff MGTOW say is often out of being hurt too. It's not pleasant to hear you are blamed for someone else's bad time in life because of your gender.

    How often do you think men hear their gender being blamed for women's bad time in life?


  • #180
    Mr Arrior
    Closed Accounts Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Mr Arrior


    PucaMama wrote:
    Nothing wrong with a quiet fella some women like myself can't stand loud obnoxious people. Have you tried groups? I don't know if you like to read or what music you like etc but look even for facebook groups about them and get chatting some local groups meet up

    Well theres nothing local, town is dead but I'm gonna try moving to a bigger city. Couple that with toning up and I'm hoping it will help.


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  • #181
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Icemancometh wrote: »
    How often do you think men hear their gender being blamed for women's bad time in life?

    But since we both (men and women) know what it's like to be blamed why do we continue?


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