Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

cros13 · 20-02-2016 7:12pm #1

So... Hyundai IONIQ details are stating to leak out.

28kWh LG Chem NCM pack (Though I've been told that this is actually a 30kWh pack but Hyundai are being conservative about depth of discharge)

Expected EPA range of ~170km, just a few km shy of the 30kWh Leaf.

Looks well equipped and pricing might be below the Leaf. Had hoped for more range though.

Rapid Charging will be CCS in Europe and CHAdeMO in Asia.
A test unit was spotted charging via CCS at a FastNed station back in November.

23-02-2016 7:26pm

Yeah I was hoping for more range too but all manufacturers will just follow what Nissan do as usual.

Still good to have more options, same 28 Kwh usable as the Leaf 30 Kwh.

Anyway at least when my lease is up there should be a lot more choice and much longer range.

Benny_Cake · 23-02-2016 7:33pm

Good to hear this. I actually thought that Hyundai had thrown their weight behind hydrogen fuel cells so the fact that they are planning a BEV that looks like it isn't just a compliance car is a pleasant surprise.

23-02-2016 7:54pm

I suppose GM got in with the 60 kwh Bolt a bit earlier.

28-07-2016 7:07pm

Got this from Hyundai today, I expect anyone who registered their interest will get the same.

Dear Mad_Lad

"We expect to have the hybrid and fully electric version in Ireland from mid October 2016. We will bring the plug in electric version in early 2017."

I expect that to hurt the Leaf, which is an old model now.

It's a shame they didn't have a 40 Kwh I probably would have bought it myself !

thisonetaken · 28-07-2016 7:21pm

They are saying it has a range of 174 miles, if we assume real world range is 120 that's more than adequate for the vast majority of people in Ireland

28-07-2016 7:31pm

We don't yet know whether if it's got 28 usable Kwh or that's the battery capacity.

If you drive the leaf at 120 Kph and get 19 Kwh/100 kms = 5.26 Kwh/100 kms and have an actual 28 Kwh usable that would give you to the car stops about 147 Kms.

Drive at 100 kph and get about 162 Kms. The Ioniq could be a bit more efficient but I doubt that much more.

TBH I would like more. Hyundai said they will offer more when the need arises but the need is now, what they mean is when competition offers more then they will.

40 Kwh would give at about 200 kms at 120 kph give or take depending on terrain, weather etc.

At 100 kph 40 Kwh and about 38 usable = 220 kms, but knock off 20-30 kms because you need to make sure you got enough juice to be near a charge point.

The Next 2 years will be interesting.

who_ru · 04-08-2016 8:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We don't yet know whether if it's got 28 usable Kwh or that's the battery capacity.

If you drive the leaf at 120 Kph and get 19 Kwh/100 kms = 5.26 Kwh/100 kms and have an actual 28 Kwh usable that would give you to the car stops about 147 Kms.

Drive at 100 kph and get about 162 Kms. The Ioniq could be a bit more efficient but I doubt that much more.

TBH I would like more. Hyundai said they will offer more when the need arises but the need is now, what they mean is when competition offers more then they will.

40 Kwh would give at about 200 kms at 120 kph give or take depending on terrain, weather etc.

At 100 kph 40 Kwh and about 38 usable = 220 kms, but knock off 20-30 kms because you need to make sure you got enough juice to be near a charge point.

The Next 2 years will be interesting.

Any pricing available on the Ioniq EV?

04-08-2016 9:02pm

Not yet.

Hector Mildew · 04-08-2016 11:57pm

Looks like UK price starts at £24,495 after grant deduction (http://bit.ly/2axucOl).

For comparison, the 30 kwh Leaf Acenta (roughly equivalent spec) is going for £25,230

DrPhilG · 25-10-2016 12:54pm

Best have a day off and read the while forum then, lol.

Grants I can't say much about as I imported a second hand EV.

Running costs are individual to each user. Personally I do about 15k miles a year and my fuel costs are down by about €2k. And the car itself cost me very little more than an equivalent year/mileage ICE, (internal combustion engine).

Charging is a sticky topic. The Irish charging network is in an odd place right now. No money left to expand or even maintain properly, but no way to make money other than billing the users which the esb ecars department seem incapable of doing in a fair manner.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 1:09pm

28 kwh , is a big " meh" from me at this stage of the game

Water John · 25-10-2016 1:15pm

Reading up on the threads here is as good as any.
This battery issue will move forward quite rapidly, I expect.
I presume it's the take off and acceleration that caught your attention.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 1:49pm

keithob13 wrote: »

Grants available

for a BEV ( battery electric vehicle )

5K VRT rebate, 5K SEAI purchase rebate, dealers, typically quite retail inclusive if both , dealer and purchaser have to sign some paper work

Charge Points ?

Currently first 2000 purchasers of new BEVs through irish dealers, can avail of a free 16A EVSE ( which is often called a charge point, but isn't a charger ) I believe the Hyundai has a 6Kw charger , so the standard free home unit will cause the car to charge slower, unless upgraded to 32A, which means a private installation of the EVSE as the ESB will not install 32A.

No word on what happens after 2000 units are installed. it must be close now.

Running costs comparison etc

very hard to do accurately until we see what pricing regime is brought into place by the ESB for public charging . essentially BEVs break even at around 22cents per Kwh of electric ( i.e. one Unit) compared to a modern small diesel with 3.5-4l/100km , so its not difficult to have BEV costs that are not cheaper then diesels over all. The running cost argument is very weak in reality and is completely skewed by the fact that public charging is currently free , but that its not expected to last

25-10-2016 2:04pm

As a sales man, here's a very good selling point, EV for 30,000 kms on night rate electricity will cost 430 Euro's , excluding any free public charging or peak time top ups.

30,000 kms at an average of 5.5 L/100 kms over this entire 30,000 kms will cost around 2,000-2200 Euro's.

Range on the Ioniq in real life should be between 130-200 kms , the Ioniq is supposed to be a bit more efficient than a Leaf.

Fast charge time "estimated" about 30 mins to 80%.

Charge from home at 7 Kw (I think the Ioniq has a 7 Kw ac charger ) ? anyway charge time at 7 Kw would be around 4 hr 30 mins absolutely empty to full, the last few % takes longer doe to balancing the cells. Average would maybe be 3-3.5 less the more it's charged etc etc.

The ESB will install a home charge point of 3.5 Kw so this will take about 8.5-9 hrs, still enough over night and you won't plug in empty. But the customer can have a 32 amp home charge point fitted at their cost.

A customer will know their driving habits and when and if charging for public chargers is introduced this individual will know whether the home charge point will meet most of their driving needs or not, and even if they have to pay for some public chargers and even "if" and I stress "IF" a particular trip would have been the same cost in a diesel, most of their driving will probably still be met with their own home charge point.

As I said above, over 30,000 kms the Electric 430 Euro's, Diesel 2,000-2200

DrPhilG · 25-10-2016 2:23pm

Just spoke to a friend of mine who is a mechanic in a Hyndai dealers, he says they are expecting the car in within the next 2 weeks.

I might take a test drive, but I'm definitely not in the market for an upgrade until 50kwh is available at a reasonable price.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 2:25pm

As I said above, over 30,000 kms the Electric 430 Euro's, Diesel 2,000-2200

really depends on what you are comparing it with , you could equally take 3,5l-4L per 100km diesel and day rate EV etc , very much depends on what the user is doing and also that they can actually complete 30,000Km by charging at home, which I suspect very few can actually do

hence to be fair and not engage in min/maxing, its not quite as good as you state, in fact the running costs befit over 30,000 km could be as low as less then 1000 euros and that needs to be compared with the lower costs of small diesels and petrols

TCO of EVs is actually quite marginal at present

DrPhilG · 25-10-2016 2:42pm

Calculating my annual savings against annual mileage, I saved approximately €2600 over 30,000 km compared to my previous car, a 2012 Peugeot 308 1.6 diesel.

So while Boatmad is correct that it could be much lower than €1000, and Mad_lad estimated about €1500, my savings over 30,000 km is much higher.

There is no set figure to give to potential customers as everyone's mileage and usage differs.

And of course if the ESB succeed in bringing in their price gouging scheme, my savings would drop from €2100 a year to about €1400.

(PS, those savings are on fuel, insurance cost and tax cost. Not taking into account cheaper servicing.)

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 2:50pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

Calculating my annual savings against annual mileage, I saved approximately €2600 over 30,000 km compared to my previous car, a 2012 Peugeot 308 1.6 diesel.

So while Boatmad is correct that it could be much lower than €1000, and Mad_lad estimated about €1500, my savings over 30,000 km is much higher.

There is no set figure to give to potential customers as everyone's mileage and usage differs.

And of course if the ESB succeed in bringing in their price gouging scheme, my savings would drop from €2100 a year to about €1400.

(PS, those savings are on fuel, insurance cost and tax cost. Not taking into account cheaper servicing.)

my own figures show a €600 a month saving , or 7200 a year compared to running two previous cars , we will do close to 50km in the leaf in 12 months on current ,mileage . That compares to running a very inefficient 1.4 litre petrol and a 2,5l pickup truck ( That is now only used occasionally )

out of that there is a payment of about 300 euros a month on the leaf and a deposit of 6000. taken over three years thats 15,000 euros of cost, and approx 21,000 of savings , resulting in a net gain of 6K. ( which is about right as we see about 220-250 euros of extra headroom per month in the current accounts ) . I can then factor in that 6K towards the GMFV , and or the next EV !!!.

in that regards the 6K of savings will moist likely be lost in the fall in residual die to the high mileage, resulting in no net savings compared to running a small diesel which at present residuals would hold up better

its a complex subject, TCO

25-10-2016 2:52pm

BoatMad wrote: »

my own figures show a €600 a month saving , or 7200 and year compared to running two previous cars , we will do close to 50km in the leaf in 12 months on current ,mileage . That compares to running a very inefficient 1.4 litre petrol and a 2,5l pickup truck ( That is now only used occasionally )

out of that there is a payment of about 300 euros a month on the leaf and a deposit of 6000. taken over three years thats 15,000 euros of cost, and approx 21,000 of savings , resulting in a net gain of 6K. ( which is about right as we see about 220-250 euros of extra headroom per month in the current accounts ) . I can then factor in that 6K towards the GMFV , and or the next EV !!!.

You can't really attribute less use of one of two cars to having an EV.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 2:55pm

Augeo wrote: »

You can't really attribute less use of one of two cars to having an EV.

yes I can, because the most lower opex of the EV means that mileage that would have been done in the pickup has transferred to the EV, beecuase the cost of running is considerable lower then either of the two previous cars, SO we take the EV costs and compare them to the costs associated with TWO vehicles, we have to do this because otherwise you are not accounting for the extra mileage the EV is doing above and beyond what one driver would be doing.

For example , I would regularly drive the pickup into dublin, now I never do and drop my wife off and drive on in, its not as convenient as having two independant cars, but for accurate comparisons , we have to factor both cars costs against the leaf ( with a residual opex cost for the occasional local use of the pickup)

grogi · 25-10-2016 3:00pm

BoatMad wrote: »

yes I can, because the most lower opex of the EV means that mileage that would have been done in the pickup has transferred to the EV, beecuase the cost of running is considerable lower then either of the two previous cars, SO we take the EV costs and compare them to the costs associated with TWO vehicles, we have to do this because otherwise you are not accounting for the extra mileage the EV is doing above and beyond what one driver would be doing.

For example , I would regularly drive the pickup into dublin, now I never do and drop my wife off and drive on in, its not as convenient as having two independant cars, but for accurate comparisons , we have to factor both cars costs against the leaf ( with a residual opex cost for the occasional local use of the pickup)

OMG... I can only acclaim your creativity here

Drop the pickup - that's a sensible thing to do if you don't really need two cars. Those are your 'sensible man' savings. Take it as a baseline and calculate the EV benefits from there...

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 3:05pm

grogi wrote: »

OMG... I can only acclaim your creativity here

Drop the pickup - that's a sensible thing to do if you don't really need two cars. Those are your 'sensible man' savings. Take it as a baseline and calculate the EV benefits from there...

The two car strategy works, the residual value of the pickup is near zero and when its needed its very handy to have especially when the Leaf cant tow a trailer and we have use for the pickup every week.

its only correct accounting , if Car A + Car B mileage =x, and then a percentage of X mileage is transferred to Car A, then the costs of that percentage should and must be transferred from car B to new car A.

This is because clearly the EV is carrying a proportion of mileage greater then just one driver would do , thats easy to see from our mileage statistics.

The resulting finance is accurately reflected in the bank accounts and bears out that this is the correct analytical approach.

Of course a single car would save more, but at present a single car strategy doesnt suit us and a single car EV strategy suits even less. if we reduced to one car, the EV savings would be even greater

25-10-2016 3:07pm

So it made sense to take two guzzlers regularly into Dublin but ye never thought to just take one and "drop my wife off and drive on in" ?

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 3:18pm

Augeo wrote: »

So it made sense to take two guzzlers regularly into Dublin but ye never thought to just take one and "drop my wife off and drive on in" ?

both guzzled , that the point, the effective lack of material difference in running costs between the two made prioritising the use of one over the other not worth the hassle of managing a single car and combining journeys. for example we do considerable weekend mileage in the summer , its made little real difference which car we originally took, now it make no sense to take anything but the EV, so mileage that was split between both cars is now exclusively carried by the EV and the saving are accrued accordingly.

with the much lower opex costs of the EV, there is a considerable incentive to realise this savings ( and they are being realised) at a cost of higher mileage then one use driver would do one their own.

PS; both guzzlers where not going into Dublin, my wife has a journey thats not into DUBlin, whereas I regularly do

25-10-2016 6:48pm

3.5-4l 100 km 100 HP diesel the same size of a Leaf ? not driving at at any decent speed that's for sure or town driving.

cros13 · 25-10-2016 9:19pm

Rumor has it that Hyundai will increase on the Ioniq. LG Chem supplies the pack and it's currently based on an older chemistry than the Bolt/Zoe packs GM/RenaultNissan are getting from them.

cros13 · 25-10-2016 9:35pm

I do 50,000+ km a year and I'm saving ~€7000 vs a BMW 520d.

But that's not the reason I drive an EV... they are just flat out better cars.

There's a lot of reasons plug-ins have 98% customer loyalty (Norwegian Study: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160816-norway.html).

Norway's population is similar to ours, yet over 25% of new car sales there are EVs. Even now that they've started to roll back on incentives sales are still growing.

In Ireland most people still don't know practical EVs exist, let alone things like rapid charging. But when they get a test drive and they find out their questions about charging and battery longevity have satisfactory answers they quickly come around.

Heck in the two years since I bought my first EV, I've bought three personally (two Leafs and an i3) and five family members have purchased EVs.

grogi · 25-10-2016 9:56pm

cros13 wrote: »

I do 50,000+ km a year and I'm saving ~€7000 vs a BMW 520d.

But that's not the reason I drive an EV... they are just flat out better cars.

There's a lot of reasons plug-ins have 98% customer loyalty (Norwegian Study: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/08/20160816-norway.html).

Norway's population is similar to ours, yet over 25% of new car sales there are EVs. Even now that they've started to roll back on incentives sales are still growing.

Population might be similar, but the government is a bit different and contrary to ours is planning ahead...

They are spending tremendous money (ironically from selling the fossil fuels) on the EV infrastructure, plus the EV cars get loads of benefits - reduced taxes and tolls.

Owing an ICE in Norway is horrendously expensive, owing an EV is much more palatable.

25-10-2016 10:43pm

Look, even if EV was similar cost to Diesel car in every fecking way, I'd still drive the Leaf over any Dirt Box diesel !

Every time I drive My Partner's 1.6 Kia Cee'd Estate I want to scream, the throttle response is unbelievably slow compared to the Leaf and the Cee'd has about 15 more HP. I fecking hate diesel or petrol for that matter. Then manual gear box ? Christ ! horrendously bad technology , ok yeah sure, good in it's day but come on this is 2016 and people want to drive a manual diesel ? great. I'm happy for them. I'm just mighty glad I don't have to swap cogs in all the traffic.

ICE = crap compared to EV pure and simple, so even if I had to pay the same as Diesel to drive an EV I'd still drive the EV.

September1 · 26-10-2016 10:55am

grogi wrote: »

OMG... I can only acclaim your creativity here

Drop the pickup - that's a sensible thing to do if you don't really need two cars. Those are your 'sensible man' savings. Take it as a baseline and calculate the EV benefits from there...

He is right, I used to own EV and this effect is true - basically as marginal cost of doing extra journeys in EV is close to zero, then EV is used it more. When I had LEAF it would be doing 75% of miles in household, but now when we are back to ICE this split is about 55/45. It seems that EVs are a bit more economical for two car households.

KCross · 26-10-2016 11:18am

September1 wrote: »

He is right, I used to own EV and this effect is true - basically as marginal cost of doing extra journeys in EV is close to zero, then EV is used it more. When I had LEAF it would be doing 75% of miles in household, but now when we are back to ICE this split is about 55/45. It seems that EVs are a bit more economical for two car households.

Same here.

In our 2 car household we always just took our own cars when needed but now the EV is used as a first preference. Gone from 50/50 to about 75/25 at a rough guess.

So, not only did we wipe out one full diesel bill but we are also reducing significantly the diesel bill on the second car and of course the resultant reduced maintenance on that 2nd car as well.

EV is definitely well suited to 2 car households.

grogi · 26-10-2016 11:24am

KCross wrote: »

EV is definitely well suited to 2 car households.

That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

That is really stretching it...

September1 · 26-10-2016 12:12pm

grogi wrote: »

That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

That is really stretching it...

It happens with all cases where marginal cost is reduced - this is expected and rational behavior. For example people with annual pass tend to use public transport more, as extra journeys are free. In fact I'm sure that people who are provided with car and fuel by their employees also change routines to take advantage of free travel. Not sure why that is stretching? If you had free fuel on one car would it not affect your choices in household?

BoatMad · 26-10-2016 7:45pm

grogi wrote: »

That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

That is really stretching it...

You have been given supporting data by two further posters that agree with me. As others have said the marginal cost of extra mileage in an EV is close to zero. Hence it makes sense to dramatically change the split between two cars , while still retaining the flexibility of a two car household

In my case it made little sense in giving my wife a lift in a gas guzzler , hers and mine both consumed too much fuel. The EV changed all that.

I mean it's obvious , the more miles you crank up on an EV the ore you save over gas guzzling ice

The savings are real

grogi · 26-10-2016 8:41pm

BoatMad wrote: »

You have been given supporting data by two further posters that agree with me. As others have said the marginal cost of extra mileage in an EV is close to zero. Hence it makes sense to dramatically change the split between two cars , while still retaining the flexibility of a two car household

In my case it made little sense in giving my wife a lift in a gas guzzler , hers and mine both consumed too much fuel. The EV changed all that.

I mean it's obvious , the more miles you crank up on an EV the ore you save over gas guzzling ice

The savings are real

I do understand that, that is absolutely rational behaviour. I would do the same.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not only you changed how the mileage is distributed between the cars, but you also changed how you commute in general.

If at the same time you decided to do the groceries at Aldi on your way back instead of M&S in the evenings, will those savings be because of EV? Don't think so... You could do the same savings driving ICE...

Those are completely separate things and ye guys could have carpooled with ICE car saving some money in the process. You decided to carpool when you switched to EV - that happened at the same time, but you cannot attribute savings from both to only changing to the EV.

26-10-2016 9:38pm

These days after 52,000 kms, 1 year 10 months, I have to say that I would now buy an EV alone based on my opinion that they're far superior to drive.

26-10-2016 9:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

These days after 52,000 kms, 1 year 10 months, I have to say that I would now buy an EV alone based on my opinion that they're far superior to drive.

Doubt anyone believes you, your pocket rules

isnottheword · 26-10-2016 10:49pm

Augeo wrote: »

Doubt anyone believes you, your pocket rules

For the vast majority of people, it's the pocket that rules. There was a post over on the facebook page of EV Owners where a researcher asked what peoples motivations were in buying an EV. 99% said that it was due to the opportunity to save $

grogi · 27-10-2016 9:58am

isnottheword wrote: »

For the vast majority of people, it's the pocket that rules. There was a post over on the facebook page of EV Owners where a researcher asked what peoples motivations were in buying an EV. 99% said that it was due to the opportunity to save $

99% of people don't really care how their car drives, how it is maintained etc. They just want as cheap as possible A to B transportation...

27-10-2016 10:43am

Once 300+ range electrics appear with a better range of models to choose from I think we'll definitely see a lot more people changing.

Money is one thing yes but I really like the EV drive and everyone almost everyone who has driven the leaf was completely amazed by it but range was their No.1 problem with electrics but in fact most people were a bit surprised about it even having around 120 kms range in the first place imagine that but anyway, you'd be amazed by some of the complete nonsense people come out with about electrics, seriously it's disturbing how some people can be so dumb.

Crap like this doesn't make me laugh any more "can you charge it as your driving from the wheels or some BS like that"

or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?

grogi · 27-10-2016 10:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

Crap like this doesn't make me laugh any more "can you charge it as your driving from the wheels or some BS like that"

or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?

It is simple physics - but only nerds understand physics. Daaaah?!

mordeith · 27-10-2016 10:53am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?

My seven year has drawn up plans for one

27-10-2016 11:05am

mordeith wrote: »

My seven year has drawn up plans for one

The money spend on that school will be worth it yet !:D

BoatMad · 27-10-2016 11:13am

grogi wrote: »

I do understand that, that is absolutely rational behaviour. I would do the same.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not only you changed how the mileage is distributed between the cars, but you also changed how you commute in general.

If at the same time you decided to do the groceries at Aldi on your way back instead of M&S in the evenings, will those savings be because of EV? Don't think so... You could do the same savings driving ICE...

Those are completely separate things and ye guys could have carpooled with ICE car saving some money in the process. You decided to carpool when you switched to EV - that happened at the same time, but you cannot attribute savings from both to only changing to the EV.

The car pool is difficult for us as it is not that convienent and places severe restrictions on the person with the car.

But look at it mathematically

Let's for argument sake assuneb( cause they were close in costs ) that the fuel of the two " gas guzzlers was the same)

Partner B does 130 km a day

Partner A separately does similar mileage but in typically less frequent pattern but longer journeys , partners A distance does not convienentlu overlap partner Bs

Hence fuel bill = 2x 130km x 5 per week ( ignoring weekend runaround )

Partner B transfers mileage to partners A gas guzzler, there is little common over lap , so in effect most of the transferred miles simply add to partners B costs.

Eg 80 km of partner A net transfers to partner B

Costs remain the same , no savings across both vehicles are achieved.

( your flaw is assuming that by sharing the one car both partners are covering the same route , this is not the case )

In fact with changing the split , in the gas guzzlers , costs actually went up as detours were necessary to achieve the car sharing

Now partner B buys an EV

Partners B commute costs now fall from €70 per week to around €8

Every mile now transferred from gas guzzler A , to use of partner Bs EVs results in a 92% saving , this makes the inconvienence of both detour milage and General inconvienence of a single car shared worth it.

In fact with free public charging , which partner A relies on because the car hasn't enough range , the savings are currently even greater as all additional mileage so transferred is actually free.

As I said the savings are real , you're arguments would only make sense if both parties were essentially covering the same ground more or less , in that case two car use in the first place is highly questionable and as you say savings could be achieved by car pooling , in our case this is not the case.

grogi · 27-10-2016 11:21am

BoatMad wrote: »

The car pool is difficult for us as it is not that convienent and places severe restrictions on the person with the car.

But look at it mathematically

Let's for argument sake assuneb( cause they were close in costs ) that the fuel of the two " gas guzzlers was the same)

Partner B does 130 km a day

Partner A separately does similar mileage but in typically less frequent pattern but longer journeys , partners A distance does not convienentlu overlap partner Bs

Hence fuel bill = 2x 130km x 5 per week ( ignoring weekend runaround )

Partner B transfers mileage to partners A gas guzzler, there is little common over lap , so in effect most of the transferred miles simply add to partners B costs.

Eg 80 km of partner A net transfers to partner B

Costs remain the same , no savings across both vehicles are achieved.

( your flaw is assuming that by sharing the one car both partners are covering the same route , this is not the case )

In fact with changing the split , in the gas guzzlers , costs actually went up as detours were necessary to achieve the car sharing

Now partner B buys an EV

Partners B commute costs now fall from €70 per week to around €8

Every mile now transferred from gas guzzler A , to use of partner Bs EVs results in a 92% saving , this makes the inconvienence of both detour milage and General inconvienence of a single car shared worth it.

In fact with free public charging , which partner A relies on because the car hasn't enough range , the savings are currently even greater as all additional mileage so transferred is actually free.

As I said the savings are real , you're arguments would only make sense if both parties were essentially covering the same ground more or less , in that case two car use anyway is highly questionable

I never doubted your figures and I am super happy for you to achieve those saving. Once my boy-racer obsession wears off and I am ready to move on, my next car will be an EV too.

But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.

27-10-2016 11:23am

grogi wrote: »

But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.

Buying an EV V Diesel that costs a similar amount........ at some point you want to change the car or need to.

Water John · 27-10-2016 11:25am

I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
Govn't will look at that way, or should.
If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.

KCross · 27-10-2016 11:30am

Water John wrote: »

I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
Govn't will look at that way, or should.
If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.

Money talks. Its all the general public will react to.

The percentage who care about the environment is tiny. Otherwise the Greens would be in government alot more than they are!

grogi · 27-10-2016 11:43am

Water John wrote: »

I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
Govn't will look at that way, or should.
If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.

Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.

The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters. Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...

BoatMad · 27-10-2016 11:54am

grogi wrote: »

I never doubted your figures and I am super happy for you to achieve those saving. Once my boy-racer obsession wears off and I am ready to move on, my next car will be an EV too.

But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.

Yes it's a balance of inconvienence over costs. However if the inconvienence becomes too great , the answer is a second EV ( which we are actually considering ) rather them any ice based solution. Right now the cost savings are greater then the inconvienence ( and we get to spend the savings on dinners out !! )

By the way , if you want boy racer , buy a i3 , electric just blows the doors off the 19tn century bag of boots that is petrol

The future of the sports car is well assured and it's electric

Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

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