Define Consent?

Maximus Alexander · 13-10-2016 03:52PM

If she's lying there with legs akimbo, one hand plucking the banjo and the other beckoning you while she winks and slowly licks her lips, I think it counts as consent. I hope that clarifies things for you OP.

racso1975 · 13-10-2016 04:35PM

http://www.mediarare.com/temp/banjopositionD.jpg

ThinkProgress · 13-10-2016 04:44PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

If she's lying there with legs akimbo, one hand plucking the banjo and the other beckoning you while she winks and slowly licks her lips, I think it counts as consent. I hope that clarifies things for you OP.

Or you've misinterpreted things horribly, and she just wanted a musical duet...

What you gave her was more akin to sex pistols debauchery!

noaddedsugar · 13-10-2016 05:19PM

I hate all this whiny, wah the women are out to get us, what is consent crap. It is a fairly simple concept to grasp and if grasping that concept is above your capabilities then you are probably better off abstaining from sex.

Outlaw Pete · 13-10-2016 05:22PM

Irish Halo wrote: »

If you’re still struggling with consent just imagine instead of initiating sex you’re making them a cup of tea.

God I hate that video. The whole premise of it is that you must offer sex. Who the hell offers sex? Or even asks someone would they like to have sex? I've even had girls say 'Ah, you've ruined it now, you should have just..' In fact from what I have heard over the years a lot of guys would have encountered a woman that has said similar. It ruins the moment. Maybe a swingers party you might ask someone would they like to have sex but even then it would usually only be cause it's part of the rules but most people in everyday situations just go by body language etc.

RDM_83 again · 13-10-2016 06:42PM

One thing about the alcohol and consent thing is that it seems to ignore the way the vast vast majority of people react to alcohol.
I'm not talking here about levels of alcohol where people are incapacitated but alcohol doesn't make you do things some part of you doesn't want to do, it reduces inhibitions and judgement but that just means it makes you do things you regret later.

Stigura · 13-10-2016 07:23PM

Having read through this entire thread, I'm just oh so f**king glad this doing sex thing is all behind me now. I got my share in a far simpler time.

Seems like, these days, she can say, " Horse it up there, Boss! " and then, the moment ye about to blow ye load; " Stop!!! ". Flash, bang, wallop. That's a seven stretch in the joy!

F**k That!

PARlance · 13-10-2016 07:43PM

Thankfully someone posted that cup of tea video.

NiallBoo · 13-10-2016 08:09PM

Irish Halo wrote: »

If you’re still struggling with consent just imagine instead of initiating sex you’re making them a cup of tea.

I always find the "add the milk" line a little cringey.

I think I'll use this to help people understand I don't want tea.

Dr Jakub · 13-10-2016 08:47PM

noaddedsugar wrote: »

I hate all this whiny, wah the women are out to get us, what is consent crap. It is a fairly simple concept to grasp and if grasping that concept is above your capabilities then you are probably better off abstaining from sex.

Except the laws are changing and if the girls decides next day that she didn't actually consent, and in fact you raped her, well you're ****ed then aren't you? Enjoy being guilty until proven innocent.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

God I hate that video. The whole premise of it is that you must offer sex. Who the hell offers sex? Or even asks someone would they like to have sex? I've even had girls say 'Ah, you've ruined it now, you should have just..' In fact from what I have heard over the years a lot of guys would have encountered a woman that has said similar. It ruins the moment. Maybe a swingers party you might ask someone would they like to have sex but even then it would usually only be cause it's part of the rules but most people in everyday situations just go by body language etc.

'Comments are disabled for this video'. Lol every time.

Shenshen · 13-10-2016 09:27PM

Your Face wrote: »

No, not for taking my word, for thinking being drunk will stop any sexual activity.
I wouldn't put to much stock in learning about society by reading this forum.

I assumed we were talking of being drunk to the point of not being able to give consent any more, as the original poster had claimed.
I doubt many men are able for much sexual activity once they reached that point of drunkeness.

brickmauser · 13-10-2016 10:27PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

One thing about the alcohol and consent thing is that it seems to ignore the way the vast vast majority of people react to alcohol.
I'm not talking here about levels of alcohol where people are incapacitated but alcohol doesn't make you do things some part of you doesn't want to do, it reduces inhibitions and judgement but that just means it makes you do things you regret later.

Or maybe it makes people do things they want to do but are too shy to do when sober??
In college I was sharing a house with a group of guys and one bird who stayed in her room all the time and whenever she emerged gave me one word answers. I always smiled at her and said hello and asked how she was.
Anyway one night all the lads had gone down the country to play in a hurling match for their college. I was having a quiet Friday night in watching a late movie when she came into the living room in her pjamies and slippers. I shared my beer with her and I went to the off licence for a naggin. We talked and drank and one thing led to another.
Is that rape?

RDM_83 again · 14-10-2016 12:48AM

brickmauser wrote: »

RDM_83 again wrote: »

One thing about the alcohol and consent thing is that it seems to ignore the way the vast vast majority of people react to alcohol.
I'm not talking here about levels of alcohol where people are incapacitated but alcohol doesn't make you do things some part of you doesn't want to do, it reduces inhibitions and judgement but that just means it makes you do things you regret later.

Or maybe it makes people do things they want to do but are too shy to do when sober??
In college I was sharing a house with a group of guys and one bird who stayed in her room all the time and whenever she emerged gave me one word answers. I always smiled at her and said hello and asked how she was.
Anyway one night all the lads had gone down the country to play in a hurling match for their college. I was having a quiet Friday night in watching a late movie when she came into the living room in her pjamies and slippers. I shared my beer with her and I went to the off licence for a naggin. We talked and drank and one thing led to another.
Is that rape?

That's my point, unless somebody is paralytic you can't make somebody do something they 100% don't want to do if they have been drinking.

brickmauser · 14-10-2016 08:42AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

That's my point, unless somebody is paralytic you can't make somebody do something they 100% don't want to do if they have been drinking.

Well we drank a bit and she got tipsy and giggly and I told her to sit by me on the couch rather than sitting with her knees up on a seat in the corner. Anyway I put my arm around her and we were talking with our faces close together and I kissed her and lifted her into my lap undressed her and we had sex. I didn't say "Let's have sex."
So she didn't "consent."

blue note · 14-10-2016 11:19AM

Irish Halo wrote: »

If you’re still struggling with consent just imagine instead of initiating sex you’re making them a cup of tea.

I really dislike that video. It basically explains the bits around consent that everyone agrees on.

There are a few areas where guys feel vulnerable around the area of consent - two people come home dunk and decide to make tea. They're both coffee drinkers so it's not something they'd expect to do sober. In assessing whether it was a consensual cup of tea she is deemed to have been too drunk to he able to consent therefore it was not. His level of intoxication is irrelevant.

It's this type of thing that guys are moaning about when it comes to consent - the inequality in treatment of the sexes. Woman is too drunk to drink tea and the man makes her have it anyway is not consensual? That sounds like womansplaining to me - we all know that and don't need to be told, let alone in such a patronising way.

NiallBoo · 14-10-2016 11:25AM

^^^to be fair, I think they're slightly different debates that each deserve to be had on their own right.

The question op asked was "what form does consent have to take"

But your question is "should consent/rape laws be normalised across genders"

L.Jenkins · 14-10-2016 11:41AM

I'm confused by this thread and a little uneasy to say the least. Brickmauser, are you trying to make the case that verbal consent should always be given? Or that consent is implied, if the other person does not explicitly says "No"?

14-10-2016 11:46AM

brickmauser wrote: »

Trump has been skinned alive for saying he kisses women and then grabs them by the pussy but the crude reality is that what men do. If you don't make that sexual move you will be just kissing all night and when you call her again she won't answer.

You risk being accused of sexual assault.

I would kindly ask you not to lump me in with your baseless sweeping generalizations, thank you very much.

osarusan · 14-10-2016 11:49AM

NiallBoo wrote: »

But your question is "should consent/rape laws be normalised across genders"

Absolutely, and it is something that should be the same regardless of gender - the current situation is simply wrong.

But that, as you said, is something different from trying to understand what consent is in the first place.

orubiru · 14-10-2016 01:43PM

brickmauser wrote: »

Well we drank a bit and she got tipsy and giggly and I told her to sit by me on the couch rather than sitting with her knees up on a seat in the corner. Anyway I put my arm around her and we were talking with our faces close together and I kissed her and lifted her into my lap undressed her and we had sex. I didn't say "Let's have sex."
So she didn't "consent."

Hm. To be honest, I'd be reluctant to tell that story to people and with certain people I know personally I would absolutely 100% never tell them that story.

I am not really sure how this would all play out in a court of law if you found yourself accused.

Presumably the prosecution would say "did you ask her if she wanted to have sex and did she give you an affirmative answer".

So your defence would have to be that consent was implied to the extent where you could reasonably assume it was given.

I feel like your story and your experience there is a pretty common one BUT if you were a college student in the USA then I'd say that was a dangerous course of action.

That girl could be down the pub telling her friends how you both had a few beers and one thing led to another and it only takes one of them to insist that because she had been drinking she could not have consented and you've got a potential life-destroying problem on your hands.

A useful question here may be asking whether or not the people making and enforcing the laws are "out of touch" with the reality of most people's situation?

I noticed that the "Tea" video was released by Thames Valley Police and I think one of the things we can take away from that is that the people who created this video and the people who gave it the green light for distribution are kind of out of touch with the reality that most people are facing. The fact that the comments on the video are disabled is an indication that maybe they know this themselves.

zSparc · 14-10-2016 02:29PM

brickmauser wrote: »

At no point do I ever ask "Do you want to have sex?"

Why not? There are many ways to ask without turning the whole night into a ruin.

14-10-2016 02:45PM

brickmauser wrote: »

Well we drank a bit and she got tipsy and giggly and I told her to sit by me on the couch rather than sitting with her knees up on a seat in the corner. Anyway I put my arm around her and we were talking with our faces close together and I kissed her and lifted her into my lap undressed her and we had sex. I didn't say "Let's have sex."
So she didn't "consent."

Think of it like the tea example as wanting a bag of chips after a few beers. You wanted chips and you were of sound mind and body to make this conscious decision and she did also and she was also of the capacity to make the decision (right?)

Surely with the burden of proof being on the accuser that they would have to build up a strong enough case or otherwise it would be completely unsafe to return a guilty verdict?
Although in some cases such as Ched Evans you'd wonder how it was adjudged to have been beyond reasonable doubt

brickmauser · 14-10-2016 09:57PM

L.Jenkins wrote: »

I'm confused by this thread and a little uneasy to say the least. Brickmauser, are you trying to make the case that verbal consent should always be given? Or that consent is implied, if the other person does not explicitly says "No"?

I'm saying it is a very grey area.

brickmauser · 14-10-2016 09:59PM

zSparc wrote: »

Why not? There are many ways to ask without turning the whole night into a ruin.

It never happens like that. That's why.

endacl · 14-10-2016 10:00PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Did you not put up a thread recently about falling morals in society and a need to return to old fashioned values?

I wouldn't worry. He'll have a thread up in three days explaining why he's changed his mind...

:rolleyes:

mickstupp · 14-10-2016 10:33PM

brickmauser wrote: »

Trump has been skinned alive for saying he kisses women and then grabs them by the pussy but the crude reality is that what men do.

... neither I nor any of my friends do that

I don't want to know the kind of people you apparently know.

B.A._Baracus · 14-10-2016 10:48PM

mickstupp wrote: »

... neither I nor any of my friends do that
I don't want to know the kind of people you apparently know.

I do believe you are taking it up wrong. If you didn't clip the original post you would see that it's all about getting down to sex... Kissing, feeling, groping etc. Which initiates sex (to use a stupid term)

You saying you've never done that?
Also why did you clip the original post when quoting? That part explained what they meant.

leggo · 14-10-2016 11:19PM

I legitimately cannot remember one time where, when having sex with someone for the first time (it's different when you're seeing or with someone and know their 'cues' so to speak) I haven't verbally asked the person if they wanted to have sex. Unless they've said it to me of course. It's just a habit that was obviously drilled into me before I first had sex, I started then and carried on.

I recently got into a heated debate with someone who argued that it'd be awkward to do so, asking "but what if they said no if you gave them the option but they would've just gone with it if you hadn't?" THEN DON'T HAVE SEX!!! I don't understand why people would be so desperate for the ride that they'd risk their future being destroyed by a potential false allegation of rape. Because most reasonable people know when one thing is leading to another, but without asking for consent explicitly you give someone you don't truly know the option of waking up the next day and changing their mind, or if you decide not to proceed then getting back at you viciously in the future. At least the Gardai are relatively well trained to spot the liars, so you at least need to cover yourself by knowing you're telling the truth and have done it.

I know of one guy who'll even record the moment they give consent on a voice memo on the sneaky. Now that's a bit weird for my liking, but his paranoia is at least in the right direction. It's something men should be afraid of, but once you've actually done it you're 99% in the clear even if they turn out to be crazy down the line.

leggo · 14-10-2016 11:26PM

I prefer the quickfire method:

"Ifyouwannahavesexsaywhat"
"What?"
"Bingo."

Ozymandius2011 · 07-05-2018 02:07AM

I think consent is when someone who is of legal age agrees to have sex with someone. I think the consent can take verbal or non verbal forms.