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Define Consent?

2

Comments

  • #32
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,070 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

    There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!


  • #33
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    If you don't know what consent is then chances are you're a bit of a concern.


  • #34
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    _Brian wrote: »
    The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

    There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!

    The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.


  • #35
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    You'll have to have around 200 hundred CODA meetings behind you before a feminist will even think of a kiss lol

    Feminists pfffttt...I think they're a disgrace to women


  • #36
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Lads, just have a contract ready to whip out along with your mickey, and a public notary to notarise. Shouldn''t slow down the rhythm at all


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  • #37
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Your Face wrote: »
    The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

    can you let me know where these women are I could do with a cheap night out


  • #38
    everlast75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,021 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    jester77 wrote: »
    I have a hidden cam in my bedroom, just in case this problem ever arises and I need to defend myself.

    while on that subject, could you tilt the camera up and to the right a little? That'd be great. Thanks

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



  • #39
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Has Donald Trump posted a reply yet?


  • #40
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,070 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Your Face wrote: »
    The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

    I'd say the statistics are weighted towards the men though. Abhorrent behaviour and seriously increases the chances of a rape case resulting. Particularly that so many cases have come forward publically.


  • #41
    RWCNT
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    brickmauser wrote: »
    When I escalate I put my hands on her tits or her arse or her pussy. If she doesn't remove my hands I go further and start undressing her.

    I have a strange feeling this is hypothetical rather than anecdotal.


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  • #42
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Your Face wrote: »
    The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

    I'll take your word for it that there's women out there who will keep buying men drink until they're so plastered they'll come home with them.
    But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.


  • #43
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I'll take your word for it that there's women out there who will keep buying men drink until they're so plastered they'll come home with them.
    But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.

    That's a bit naive.


  • #44
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    silverharp wrote: »
    I'd imagine its ok once you bring standard contracts along and have a solicitor present. :pac:

    And don't mind hair, lots and lot's of hair:D


  • #45
    Dr Jakub
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Dr Jakub


    silverharp wrote: »
    I'd imagine its ok once you bring standard contracts along and have a solicitor present. :pac:

    And you have a reinforced bed...


    Anyway, I've been in situations where I've been so drunk I've brought a girl home and had sex with her. Sometimes I don't even remember who initiated or if any 'consent' was given. Am I a rapist or was I raped?


  • #46
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You'll find that much of the law on consent was defined by Judges in their 60s and 70s.

    Laws also change and laws on consent are being changed in the US. Only a matter of time before this starts happening here too.


  • #47
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Your Face wrote: »
    That's a bit naive.

    What, taking your word for it? Probably.

    I've bought a guy a drink occasionally, but from what I gather on AH I'm the exception rather than the rule.


  • #48
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 20,070 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Dr Jakub wrote: »
    And you have a reinforced bed...


    Anyway, I've been in situations where I've been so drunk I've brought a girl home and had sex with her. Sometimes I don't even remember who initiated or if any 'consent' was given. Am I a rapist or was I raped?

    I think as time goes on this behaviour brings increased risk of a case being claimed.


  • #49
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    _Brian wrote: »
    The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

    There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!

    That's not drunk messy sex through.

    That's carefully planned date-rape.


  • #50
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Shenshen wrote: »
    But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.
    I don't know how an unconscious or unwilling woman could provide sexual pleasure to a man either.

    But rape isn't about that, is it?


  • #51
    brickmauser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 403 ✭✭brickmauser


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    I would have thought this is where the big problems arise with allowing feminists to define consent...

    Hard line angry feminist types don't represent your average hetro female!

    Let's start with the fact that most feminists are not comfortable with the notion of physically submitting to anyone in any situation...

    So they quite likely can't rap their heads around why any female would want to do that or be turned on by that in a sexual situation!

    I have read some feminist commentary on hetro male/female interaction... Many consider it demeaning to the woman. (Which is really just them projecting their insecurities onto ALL other females)

    There is a school of thought among ultra feminists that the sexual act is an act of violence and by its nature coercive.
    So all sex is rape.
    I sh*t you not!


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  • #52
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    _Brian wrote: »
    I'd say the statistics are weighted towards the men though. Abhorrent behaviour and seriously increases the chances of a rape case resulting. Particularly that so many cases have come forward publically.

    It is abhorrent behavior. You may or may not be right about those statistics. My point was, its not just men who engage in this behaviour.


  • #53
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    I would say if you go to kiss her, she pulls away or moves her head, she doesn't want to kiss you. If you're kissing, and you're about to undress her and she says no, you stop. If she lets you undress her to the point you're both naked and about to get down to business, if she tells you to stop, you stop. If you have started to have sex and she tells you to stop, you stop.

    What you don't do is whisper that it'll be ok, and have sex with her anyway. That's when it's rape.


  • #54
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    Shenshen wrote: »
    What, taking your word for it? Probably.

    I've bought a guy a drink occasionally, but from what I gather on AH I'm the exception rather than the rule.

    No, not for taking my word, for thinking being drunk will stop any sexual activity.
    I wouldn't put to much stock in learning about society by reading this forum.


  • #55
    Maguined
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    I would say if you go to kiss her, she pulls away or moves her head, she doesn't want to kiss you. If you're kissing, and you're about to undress her and she says no, you stop. If she lets you undress her to the point you're both naked and about to get down to business, if she tells you to stop, you stop. If you have started to have sex and she tells you to stop, you stop.

    What you don't do is whisper that it'll be ok, and have sex with her anyway. That's when it's rape.

    That is the normal approach most people have. The real issue is the fact that this approach is no longer considered acceptable.

    Affirmative enthusiastic consent is what is being suggested and taught by student unions in some colleges in Ireland. They copied this from American colleges and want it spread and made mandatory in all colleges in Ireland.

    It is not good enough to simply act and wait for someone to object. You would have to ask your partner for permission to kiss them, for permission to touch them, for permission to undress them etc. They would have to provide a clear yes before any step otherwise in their eyes consent was not given.

    This sort of censent is what is being pushed for yet it is not what the majority of the population follows. Almost 100% of my sexual partners would of violated this form of consent with me.


  • #56
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Well I'm not sure if I agree with that. Why don't both people go with what feels ok for both of them? I've been in situations where I've kissed strangers who just leaned in for kisses, I've been in situations where I've pulled back/ moved my head and let them kiss my cheek because I didn't feel comfortable.

    I would be of the opinion I suppose that when either party says No, then that's when you stop. I know I'd get a bit "wtf" if at every step he was asking for permission. I know myself when I want to stop. It's up to them then to stop when they're told no.

    Should it get more complicated than that?


  • #57
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Feminists would have had little role in the cases. It's not like they take soundings from a feminist expert.

    Feminist lobbying and campaigning has influenced much rape and consent law reform all over the world.

    Most recently in India:
    Bowing to pressure from women activists, the government has decided to restore the term rape in criminal law that states only men can be booked for committing the offence against women.

    In the UK:
    Feminist activism and rape law reform in England and Wales

    Reforming the law on rape has played a key role in these feminist campaigns partly due to the symbolic power of the criminal law, and most recently because of a government receptive to demands for change.

    No better example of the above than the issuing of last year's new prosecution guidelines regarding consent in the UK:
    Campaigners hail DPP's tough new rape guidelines as 'huge step forward'

    Radical changes to the way sex offences are investigated have been hailed as a “huge step forward” by campaigners.

    New guidance to be issued to all police forces and prosecutors will require rape suspects to convince the authorities that a woman consented to sex.

    Police and prosecutors must now put a greater burden of responsibility on rape suspects to demonstrate how the complainant had consented “with full capacity and freedom to do so”, according to the new guidance.


  • #58
    Ozymandius2011
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,733 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    This is a legal minefield that has the legal profession and their proxies in the NGOs salivating.

    Personally I think consent is where someone says or signals that they want to have sex.

    I think what we should not do is repeat the mistakes of the Obama administration on consent in universities. Under Title IX, US universities are supposed rely on a preponderence of evidence rather than the presumption of innocence. I read an article by George Will recently about a case in Colorado where a student was expelled on suspicion of rape, despite the alleged victim saying there was no rape. The reason? Her friend saw a hickie on her neck and jumped to conclusions.

    I am very concerned at how our law defines consensual relationships between underage teenage peers as "statutory rape", as if it was forcible. I am concerned that the underage fathers are going to be unable to provide for their child due to unemployment resulting from such convictions, and that their offspring will carry a stain on the family reputation that could repeat the injustice to the next generation. Its also very wrong that the law only criminalises the boy even if the girl was consenting equally (in a notional sense of "consent").


  • #59
    Irish Halo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭Irish Halo


    If you’re still struggling with consent just imagine instead of initiating sex you’re making them a cup of tea.


  • #60
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    brickmauser wrote: »
    There is a school of thought among ultra feminists that the sexual act is an act of violence and by its nature coercive.
    So all sex is rape.
    I sh*t you not!

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm referring to... it's ludicrous!

    I'm genuinely curious what the feminist's view is of a non binary sexual encounter - if such a thing can truly exist?

    Would it be like that scene from the movie Mr and Mrs Smith... where both parties beat the crap out of each other before eventually making love? (looks like that could be fun, if you let them win a couple of rounds) :pac:

    More realistically feminist sex would perhaps be like those wildlife docs where the much larger and more aggressive black widow female mates with the smaller weaker male, and then just eats him afterwards... :P


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  • #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    brickmauser wrote: »
    I've never been in a situation where we are both naked and I am just about to put my penis inside her when she says "No."

    Never? I wonder if that is unusual. I have had a few occasions where the partner I was with decided that the sex she wanted to have with me in that moment was of the non-penetrative kind and she happily communicated that with me and we happily explored enjoyable alternatives.

    I would be quite surprised if I was the unusual one in that.
    brickmauser wrote: »
    What is consent?

    I would hate to try and define that myself. Whatever you come up with - unless it was a novel length - would have some exception someone will take you up on.

    But a few people do try. And this particular example has a naked woman being drawn on which might also appeal to some people :)

    But interestingly she starts the video by pointing out that a large number of text books on human sexuality _also_ lack a section on consent. Which you would think might be in there.
    brickmauser wrote: »
    As a man I find I have to take the lead. Women do NOT make the first move or make any moves in my experience.

    Again your experience is entirely different to mine.


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