Define Consent?

brickmauser

When I am on a date with a woman there are non verbal signals I pick up on that tell me she wants to kiss me so I just kiss her. If she wants to have sex it is never explicitly mentioned it is just implied when we decide to go to hers or mine. Once we arrive we might listen to some music or watch a movie or have a drink and then kiss and go up to the bedroom or simply skip that and get straight to the sex.

At no point do I ever ask "Do you want to have sex?" and she says "Yes."

I've never been in a situation where we are both naked and I am just about to put my penis inside her when she says "No."

So am I guilty of rape?
If we met in a nightclub and we are both drunk and we have sex am I a rapist?

The majority of men must be rapists so?

What is consent?

Many women are so shy you might have been talking all night they make no move at all or give you no non verbal cues so I would just go for the kiss and then the sex is on. I've often gone back to a woman's place and mid conversation took her in my arms and went from there.

As a man I find I have to take the lead. Women do NOT make the first move or make any moves in my experience.

Does that make me a rapist?

HellSquirrel

When it's clear she wants sex too, it's not rape.

If you're often in a position where it's hard to tell you might have a problem.

HellSquirrel

Yeah, that's normal. So you don't go from "hey, I wonder if she likes me" to putting your penis in her without several intervening steps.

It's not rocket science.

brickmauser

But if you escalate without consent that's sexual assault?

When I escalate I put my hands on her tits or her arse or her pussy. If she doesn't remove my hands I go further and start undressing her.

If a woman doesn't say stop or pull my hands away she could claim in court she was too scared to say stop.

That puts a man in an impossible position

Alf Stewart.

Whenever a Sheila tells me to flip her over the pool table, and phuck her sideways is usually sign enough for me.

brickmauser

Trump has been skinned alive for saying he kisses women and then grabs them by the pussy but the crude reality is that what men do. If you don't make that sexual move you will be just kissing all night and when you call her again she won't answer.

You risk being accused of sexual assault.

HellSquirrel

Trump has been skinned alive for saying he kisses women and then grabs them by the pussy but the crude reality is that what men do. If you don't make that sexual move you will be just kissing all night and when you call her again she won't answer.

You risk being accused of sexual assault.

It's a problem when you can't see the difference between;

Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab ’em by the p****. You can do anything.

and a normal night out ending in sex that both people want. Here's a hint; you don't just kiss someone because they're beautiful and you've just met them. And you really don't grab them by the pussy to signal your interest. There's a sensible mean in all this.

HellSquirrel

Just to be clear, women, don't grab men by the penis as a greeting either.

I'd hate to appear biased.

sbsquarepants

brickmauser wrote: »

If a woman doesn't say stop or pull my hands away she could claim in court she was too scared to say stop.

That puts a man in an impossible position

There will always be liars in the world - she could implicitly say yes, ask for sex, beg even and then the next day claim she said no all along. It's impossible to protect against these things - you could get her to sign a consent form but if she really wanted to she could just then claim duress.

The simple (and fairly obvious I have to say) way out of this is to only have sex with people who are very obviously interested.
There are plenty of women out there, there's no need to coerce, convince or try push the limits so you can claim some grey area "consent" to proceed.

If in doubt, leave it out!:D

The odds of you coming up against a pathological liar intent on ruining your life for no good reason are quite slim, so I wouldn't stress it too much.

brickmauser

HellSquirrel wrote: »

It's a problem when you can't see the difference between;

Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Bush: Whatever you want.

Trump: Grab ’em by the p****. You can do anything.

and a normal night out ending in sex that both people want. Here's a hint; you don't just kiss someone because they're beautiful and you've just met them. And you really don't grab them by the pussy to signal your interest. There's a sensible mean in all this.

I've been in situations where I just met a woman and kissed her and we had sex right away.
It happens.

I mean once I was on my way home from work and this girl at the top of the bus turned and looked back at me and smiled. She got off at the next stop and I just thought go for it so I got off too and struck up a conversation. I must have been talking to her for 30 secs and we kissed and she lived 100 yards away and we had sex at her house.

racso1975

brickmauser wrote: »

I've been in situations where I just met a woman and kissed her and we had sex right away.
It happens.

Brothel?

sbsquarepants

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Just to be clear, women, don't grab men by the penis as a greeting either.

I'd hate to appear biased.

You've clearly never came across a hen party in full swing!
I've been mauled many times by women. Women can and do behave much worse than any men I know.
I accept it's not quite the same thing because as a man you aren't really in any danger, but to say women don't grope strangers is just nonsense.

eviltwin

brickmauser wrote: »

I've been in situations where I just met a woman and kissed her and we had sex right away.
It happens.

I mean once I was on my way home from work and this girl at the top of the bus turned and looked back at me and smiled. She got off at the next stop and I just thought go for it so I got off too and struck up a conversation. I must have been talking to her for 30 secs and we kissed and she lived 100 yards away and we had sex at her house.

Did you not put up a thread recently about falling morals in society and a need to return to old fashioned values?

eamonnq

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You've clearly never came across a hen party in full swing!
I've been mauled many times by women. Women can and do behave much worse than any men I know.
I accept it's not quite the same thing because as a man you aren't really in any danger, but to say women don't grope strangers is just nonsense.

I think it was an 'advisory' statement rather than a claim that women don't actually do it.

ThinkProgress

I would have thought this is where the big problems arise with allowing feminists to define consent...

Hard line angry feminist types don't represent your average hetro female!

Let's start with the fact that most feminists are not comfortable with the notion of physically submitting to anyone in any situation...

So they quite likely can't rap their heads around why any female would want to do that or be turned on by that in a sexual situation!

I have read some feminist commentary on hetro male/female interaction... Many consider it demeaning to the woman. (Which is really just them projecting their insecurities onto ALL other females)

Akrasia

Denisovan_ wrote: »

Has anyone claimed that to be the case?

Some of the nuttiest feminists and social justice warriors have been taking this 'rape culture' theme and running it all the way down the slippery slope to define anything that isn't explicit verbal consent (by the woman) for every stage of sexual contact, to be assault

In normal human interaction, there are non verbal signals and intention and consent are reasonably clear (as clear as this kind of thing can be, when you have to judge someone else's potential response to an advance that you are not certain of until you make it)

Because Sexual selection is a massive driver of our evolution, sexual attraction and mating rituals are complex and there are a wide variety of preferences and 'strategies' depending on the personalities of the individuals involved.

Everyone is different, there are sexually adventurous men, and women, and there are men and women who like to take things slow or don't like having any sexual contact at all.

Consent is not just about explicitly saying yes, it's about how you behave, what signals you react to and display, and whether or not you tell someone not to advance to the next stage of contact.

There are normal boundaries that go without saying. It's never appropriate to simply grope someone in a normal day to day encounter (but maybe different in an orgy situation). It's never acceptable to abuse power relationships to engage in sexual contact that is unwanted, but the other party feels that he/she cannot say no, and it is not acceptable to deliberately impair someone elses judgement with the intention of sexual contact later on (by getting someone deliberately excessively drunk or drugging them to prevent them from being able to withdraw consent later on).

These boundaries are obvious to the majority of normal people who want their sexual encounters to be positive for both parties. if anyone is seeking sexual gratification but doesn't care if the other person enjoys it or wants it, then that person is already on the danger line and may already have crossed it.

There are commercial sexual transactions, like prostitution and erotic performances which are arguably different, but only IF the sex worker is engaging in the practise out of her own free will and with informed consent is still required for any sexual act, even more so due to the commercial nature of the transaction which nullifies the normal subtleties of human courting rituals.

brickmauser

brickmauser wrote: »

At no point do I ever ask "Do you want to have sex?" and she says "Yes."

But the law does not require that consent must be expressed, it can be implied.

As for what is consent, it is permission, acquiescence, it must be informed and it must exist...but again it does not have to be expressed.

Wibbs

brickmauser wrote: »

Trump has been skinned alive for saying he kisses women and then grabs them by the pussy but the crude reality is that what men do.

The actual fcuk? :eek: Eh no. No it's not. Jesus Murphy. Has the notion of the subtleties of social and sexual interaction been entirely lost for some? On the one hand you got some nutters claiming eye rape and and on the other you have some nutters thinking a woman is a video game with buttons you press. Both seem deeply confused. Maybe it's better they don't reproduce. I've certainly found that comforting when reading "Men going their own way" stuff.

ThinkProgress

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I would have thought this is where the big problems arise with allowing feminists to define consent...

You'll find that much of the law on consent was defined by Judges in their 60s and 70s.

Feminists would have had little role in the cases. It's not like they take soundings from a feminist expert.

osarusan

How the f**k has the OP survived on here so long?

HensVassal

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Just to be clear, women, don't grab men by the penis as a greeting either.

I'd hate to appear biased.

Some do. Trust me.


EDIT: I just copped on that this was a directive. But I'd like to say, women, that I wouldn't mind if you did.

valoren

What is the percentage of communication that is non verbal? 93% according to research.

Assuming you are engaging in foreplay with no signs of obvious discomfort from your partner then yes, I imagine it would be ok for you and your mickey to proceed to the actual playing part

CaoimheSquee

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Let's start with the fact that most feminists are not comfortable with the notion of physically submitting to anyone in any situation...

So they quite likely can't rap their heads around why any female would want to do that or be turned on by that in a sexual situation!

Absolutely, completely and UTTERLY factually incorrect.
You are mistaken as to what a feminist is I am afraid.

Wibbs

eviltwin wrote: »

Did you not put up a thread recently about falling morals in society and a need to return to old fashioned values?

Oddly and ironically both "sides" of this kinda debate seem hellbent on going full victorian on notions of sexuality and gender. As for some slapper trying to grab my meat and two veg, my natural response is to just tell them to eff off. I don't go off to cry in my shandy about how terrible an assault I've suffered. The world is full of muppets scattered among the sound. It's the way of things. Get over yourself.

Stealthfins

I don't date women who drink or do drugs or who are under 40 it makes life much easier.

Stick with the mature sober earthy types and stay clear of the princesses....

jester77

I have a hidden cam in my bedroom, just in case this problem ever arises and I need to defend myself.

ThinkProgress

Wibbs wrote: »

and on the other you have some nutters thinking a woman is a video game with buttons you press.

Hold on now wibbs... Women DO have buttons that can be pressed... As do men.

If we didn't, men and women might rarely have sex... Such are the chances of both being "in the mood" at the same exact time! lol

Sex often does involve some persuasion and coercion... (of the gentle sort - not aggressive)

The problem is alcohol mostly... Gentle persuasion can turn into aggression quite easily - with the removal of inhibitions.

HensVassal

brickmauser wrote: »

When I am on a date with a woman there are non verbal signals I pick up on that tell me she wants to kiss me so I just kiss her. If she wants to have sex it is never explicitly mentioned it is just implied when we decide to go to hers or mine. Once we arrive we might listen to some music or watch a movie or have a drink and then kiss and go up to the bedroom or simply skip that and get straight to the sex.

At no point do I ever ask "Do you want to have sex?" and she says "Yes."

I've never been in a situation where we are both naked and I am just about to put my penis inside her when she says "No."

So am I guilty of rape?
If we met in a nightclub and we are both drunk and we have sex am I a rapist?

The majority of men must be rapists so?

What is consent?

Many women are so shy you might have been talking all night they make no move at all or give you no non verbal cues so I would just go for the kiss and then the sex is on. I've often gone back to a woman's place and mid conversation took her in my arms and went from there.

As a man I find I have to take the lead. Women do NOT make the first move or make any moves in my experience.

Does that make me a rapist?

Well when she sees you tearing open a condom wrapper that's pretty much an anouncement that you're preparing to pork her. If she doesn't pipe up with a "NO" at that point you can probably safely rest assured that you have her consent.

philstar

it can be confusing

ThinkProgress

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

Absolutely, completely and UTTERLY factually incorrect.
You are mistaken as to what a feminist is I am afraid.

I'm sorry, I've never had the pleasure of a sexual encounter with a 'feminist'... I imagine their sexual exploits being quite awkward and confusing ordeals... :P

silverharp

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I'm sorry, I've never had the pleasure of a sexual encounter with a 'feminist'... I imagine their sexual exploits being quite awkward and confusing ordeals... :P

I'd imagine its ok once you bring standard contracts along and have a solicitor present. :pac:

_Brian

The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!

Your Face

If you don't know what consent is then chances are you're a bit of a concern.

Your Face

_Brian wrote: »

The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!

The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

Stealthfins

You'll have to have around 200 hundred CODA meetings behind you before a feminist will even think of a kiss lol

Feminists pfffttt...I think they're a disgrace to women

dudara

Lads, just have a contract ready to whip out along with your mickey, and a public notary to notarise. Shouldn''t slow down the rhythm at all

SEPT 23 1989

Your Face wrote: »

The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

can you let me know where these women are I could do with a cheap night out

everlast75

jester77 wrote: »

I have a hidden cam in my bedroom, just in case this problem ever arises and I need to defend myself.

while on that subject, could you tilt the camera up and to the right a little? That'd be great. Thanks

Shenshen

Has Donald Trump posted a reply yet?

_Brian

Your Face wrote: »

The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

I'd say the statistics are weighted towards the men though. Abhorrent behaviour and seriously increases the chances of a rape case resulting. Particularly that so many cases have come forward publically.

RWCNT

brickmauser wrote: »

When I escalate I put my hands on her tits or her arse or her pussy. If she doesn't remove my hands I go further and start undressing her.

I have a strange feeling this is hypothetical rather than anecdotal.

Shenshen

Your Face wrote: »

The above described behavior is not just the domain of men.

I'll take your word for it that there's women out there who will keep buying men drink until they're so plastered they'll come home with them.
But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.

Your Face

Shenshen wrote: »

I'll take your word for it that there's women out there who will keep buying men drink until they're so plastered they'll come home with them.
But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.

That's a bit naive.

sbsquarepants

silverharp wrote: »

I'd imagine its ok once you bring standard contracts along and have a solicitor present. :pac:

And don't mind hair, lots and lot's of hair:D

Dr Jakub

silverharp wrote: »

I'd imagine its ok once you bring standard contracts along and have a solicitor present. :pac:

And you have a reinforced bed...


Anyway, I've been in situations where I've been so drunk I've brought a girl home and had sex with her. Sometimes I don't even remember who initiated or if any 'consent' was given. Am I a rapist or was I raped?

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

You'll find that much of the law on consent was defined by Judges in their 60s and 70s.

Laws also change and laws on consent are being changed in the US. Only a matter of time before this starts happening here too.

Shenshen

Your Face wrote: »

That's a bit naive.

What, taking your word for it? Probably.

I've bought a guy a drink occasionally, but from what I gather on AH I'm the exception rather than the rule.

_Brian

Dr Jakub wrote: »

And you have a reinforced bed...


Anyway, I've been in situations where I've been so drunk I've brought a girl home and had sex with her. Sometimes I don't even remember who initiated or if any 'consent' was given. Am I a rapist or was I raped?

I think as time goes on this behaviour brings increased risk of a case being claimed.

NiallBoo

_Brian wrote: »

The glaring thing that isn't being talked about here is the problem when people are so drunk that they are essentially incapable of verbal communication.

There are a cohort of sleezy lads out there who set off on a night to ply copious amounts of alcohol into girls with the view of bedding them when their judgment is seriously deminished. Buying the lady doubles on the sly, drinking just mixers themselves and letting the lady get loaded up. The resultant sexual encounter is a real problem as if the girl is so drunk she hardly knows what's happening has she really the opportunity to concent ?? And as happens if the lad has been intentionally stuffing her with alcohol to get her in that state surely it's even worse!!

That's not drunk messy sex through.

That's carefully planned date-rape.

NiallBoo

Shenshen wrote: »

But I do not believe that these men are in any state then to provide any sexual pleasure to the women in question.

I don't know how an unconscious or unwilling woman could provide sexual pleasure to a man either.

But rape isn't about that, is it?

brickmauser

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I would have thought this is where the big problems arise with allowing feminists to define consent...

Hard line angry feminist types don't represent your average hetro female!

Let's start with the fact that most feminists are not comfortable with the notion of physically submitting to anyone in any situation...

So they quite likely can't rap their heads around why any female would want to do that or be turned on by that in a sexual situation!

I have read some feminist commentary on hetro male/female interaction... Many consider it demeaning to the woman. (Which is really just them projecting their insecurities onto ALL other females)

There is a school of thought among ultra feminists that the sexual act is an act of violence and by its nature coercive.
So all sex is rape.
I sh*t you not!