Top floor apt with no ceiling insulation!

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 04:09PM

Right2Write wrote: »

Well that's for you to figure out. I'm merely pointing out that your proposed solution of slabbing the ceilings in the rooms is not without problems and work. Incidentally you sometimes used to see (still do?) polystyrene tiles stuck to ceilings presumably for this purpose. Not sure how effective they are. Must be better than nothing but look tacky as well.

Incidentally, how do you know there is no insulation above the ceiling and how did you measure the temperature above, if you've no access??

There are companies providing insulation solutions and that 'pump foam' but these are normally applied to wall cavities as far as I know. Probably not a good idea to do this if there are electrical cables present..

Maybe you'd need to make a series of openings so that conventional loft insulation could be laid and then reinstate but sounds messy too.

I appreciate you may be trying to help but cutting loads of holes just to put up insulation maybe an option to you but it's really messy and time consuming that way. Those tiles you mention are decorative not thermal as far as I know.

Measuring temp in the cavity or checking insulation is really easy to do. I am surprised you ask. Remove down lighters and with a light fitting removed I can scope around with an inspection camera (or even an iPhone) and also put a thermometer up there. Alternatively drill small hole and put inspection camera or thermometer up.

Now I told you my secret you might enlighten me as to how I can safely get foam up there and not risk causing a fire through the downlighters overheating or the foam damaging the exposed electrical cable housings. If you don't know the answer then it's best not to suggest solutions you don't fully understand.

Right2Write · 07-10-2016 04:16PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

If you don't know the answer then it's best not to suggest solutions you don't fully understand.

Fine, you figure it out - since you seem to know what answer you want

But I will risk one final piece of advice.

Sell next summer

and

take care next time to buy a better insulated abode.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 04:35PM

Right2Write wrote: »

Fine, you figure it out - since you seem to know what answer you want

But I will risk one final piece of advice.

Sell next summer

and

take care next time to buy a better insulated abode.

This x100

No need to be so brash with posters who are trying to help.

If you were so particular when buying, maybe you would have a properly insulated apartment.

Go get some professional advice from a home insulation company.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 04:46PM

Right2Write wrote: »

Fine, you figure it out - since you seem to know what answer you want

But I will risk one final piece of advice.

Sell next summer

and

take care next time to buy a better insulated abode.

That's actually two pieces of advice!
Real crystal ball stuff from you then! The people in prior hall would love to have had your vision and advice. Sometime things happen and you then try to fix them.

If you care to read my OP you will see the information I asked - if I had answers I would not be asking here. Overboard or not to overboard. That's where it's at.

Thanks for trying to help.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 04:51PM

hurikane wrote: »

This x100

No need to be so brash with posters who are trying to help.

If you were so particular when buying, maybe you would have a properly insulated apartment.

Go get some professional advice from a home insulation company.

I did not mean to come across harsh but his suggestions were unworkable and was not what was asked. Cut loads of holes in my ceiling to avoid reboarding with insulated board? Come on...reboarding is easier than that!

If builders would build to the regs and there was enforcement, then wise after the fact comments like yours would not be required.

It's a DIY forum...DIY gets discussed all the time. Thanks for your input.

Right2Write · 07-10-2016 07:41PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I did not mean to come across harsh but his suggestions were unworkable and was not what was asked. Cut loads of holes in my ceiling to avoid reboarding with insulated board? Come on...reboarding is easier than that!

What! You may note that I pointed out the main steps in fixing insulated plasterboard or whatever else to your ceilings. Whether you have the DIY skills or not for the various steps to do that, I know not. But regardless, I've pointed out to you the obvious potential problem - the possibility of reducing your floor to ceiling clearance below the building regs. You might get away with it if/ when you sell, you might not.

Steve · 07-10-2016 07:52PM

Right2Write wrote: »

What! You may note that I pointed out the main steps in fixing insulated plasterboard or whatever else to your ceilings. Whether you have the DIY skills or not for the various steps to do that, I know not. But regardless, I've pointed out to you the obvious potential problem - the possibility of reducing your floor to ceiling clearance below the building regs. You might get away with it if/ when you sell, you might not.

This forum is generally very helpful and offers great advice, I'm not sure how or why the animosity seems to be building but wouldn't it be better if we all tried to get along?

Your agenda has been well noted, thanks.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 09:18PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I did not mean to come across harsh but his suggestions were unworkable and was not what was asked. Cut loads of holes in my ceiling to avoid reboarding with insulated board? Come on...reboarding is easier than that!

If builders would build to the regs and there was enforcement, then wise after the fact comments like yours would not be required.

It's a DIY forum...DIY gets discussed all the time. Thanks for your input.

You were buying an apartment, not a packet of crisps. Did you get an engineers report when you bought? What did it say about insulation?

Don't blame the builders or regulation enforcement, you didn't do your homework.

A fool and his money are soon parted. Hire a professional and get it sorted, don't forget to run it by the management company.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 09:27PM

Right2Write wrote: »

What! You may note that I pointed out the main steps in fixing insulated plasterboard or whatever else to your ceilings. Whether you have the DIY skills or not for the various steps to do that, I know not. But regardless, I've pointed out to you the obvious potential problem - the possibility of reducing your floor to ceiling clearance below the building regs. You might get away with it if/ when you sell, you might not.

Thanks.

The building regs have been breached all over Ireland and nobody gets called out for it. What I am attempting to here is remedy a breach of same. Your ideas on cutting holes may be lateral / helpful / creative thinking but not workable.

My internal height is 2470mm plus wooden floor of 15mm, so it will take up to 70mm retro fit board over existing board and still be within the regs. I am looking at board that's just 27mm if overboarding or 40ish if reslabbing.

I am skilled enough to install such board but most likely will get it done by a contactor to have the certs of compliance. Hope to get the grant but it's 50/50 of the construction date qualifies (from 2006 higher insulation standards were required - I got a lower standard)

Finally, we are all wiser after making a mistake. If you have never made one or never been misled or conned, then you are lucky.

moc moc a moc · 07-10-2016 09:32PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I did not mean to come across harsh

Yes you did, don't lie

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 09:43PM

hurikane wrote: »

You were buying an apartment, not a packet of crisps. Did you get an engineers report when you bought? What did it say about insulation?

Don't blame the builders or regulation enforcement, you didn't do your homework.

A fool and his money are soon parted. Hire a professional and get it sorted, don't forget to run it by the management company.

Are you trolling here? One has more consumer protection if buying crisps in Ireland than property.

All over Ireland very wise and certainly not foolish people were conned into buying homes that were built to a poor standard or not to the regs at all. Lots of these defects would never be visible to an engineer engaged prior to purchase. I had my survey done, like many others. Like others, I have a construction guarantee that is worthless – Homebond that is.

I have drawings that state there is insulation –it's not there. You have to go to court to get a remedy for this and all the companies are bust, insolvent, in NAMA etc. Home run for everybody bar purchaser who if we follow your way of thinking, should hang their heads in shame for trusting the regulation of construction in Ireland. Oh to be as wise as you!

Where have you been living since 2008? Have you heard of Priory Hall, Longboat Quay? There are loads more too – maybe not as bad but just watch. What about pyrite – would your crystal ball show that up pre-purchase?

I hope you are never one of the victims of this shoddy work or lack of enforcement. How could you live with the shame? Heaven forbid somebody may dare call you a fool for being duped by the professionals and regulators.

Insulating my ceiling is nothing to do with the OMC. Thanks for your input though.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 11:42PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Are you trolling here? One has more consumer protection if buying crisps in Ireland than property.

All over Ireland very wise and certainly not foolish people were conned into buying homes that were built to a poor standard or not to the regs at all. Lots of these defects would never be visible to an engineer engaged prior to purchase. I had my survey done, like many others. Like others, I have a construction guarantee that is worthless – Homebond that is.

I have drawings that state there is insulation –it's not there. You have to go to court to get a remedy for this and all the companies are bust, insolvent, in NAMA etc. Home run for everybody bar purchaser who if we follow your way of thinking, should hang their heads in shame for trusting the regulation of construction in Ireland. Oh to be as wise as you!

Where have you been living since 2008? Have you heard of Priory Hall, Longboat Quay? There are loads more too – maybe not as bad but just watch. What about pyrite – would your crystal ball show that up pre-purchase?

I hope you are never one of the victims of this shoddy work or lack of enforcement. How could you live with the shame? Heaven forbid somebody may dare call you a fool for being duped by the professionals and regulators.

Insulating my ceiling is nothing to do with the OMC. Thanks for your input though.

Are you trolling?

I've some magic beans, 100k. They'll sort out your insulation problems, I'll send you my bank details.

Kaisr Sose · 08-10-2016 12:02AM

Why would I troll my own thread ?

Stoner · 08-10-2016 08:53AM

Sure you can do this if you have the height. Its messy though as you'll have to skim it with plaster afterwards. And it might take some height from the space too.

If and I know it's an if you could cut a hatch. You could lay wool or spray between the joists then you could pass sheets of thermal board (not plaster backed) just foil and insulation up into the attic and lay it over the wool or spray filled timbers. This would be quick fast and effective.
The hatch would need to allow sheets up though

You could plaster the hatch up again do nobody would notice.

Under ceiling is messy

edanto · 08-10-2016 10:15AM

(1) I'm a complete amateur and know nothing about building/regs etc

(2) I know you're asking for insulation advice, but I'm a big fan of the 'fix it once' approach and to me it seems like the best long term solution is to get together with all the other top floor owners in your block, and make a costed proposal to the Management Company to fix the roof (air/water) and safely insulate the 80cm attic space using funds from the apt owners and the sinking fund. This stops your investment losing value from water damage. It might turn out to be unrealistic, but at least find out what it costs and what support you might have from your neighbours/MC.

(3) If you do put a ~30mm board all over the ceiling, what happens at the downlighters? Will you be left with 10 circular gaps in your insulation through which your warm air is venting into the damp wet space?

(4) If you do put the ~30mm board on the ceiling, would you fix 2 or 3 layers of AluBubble to the ceiling before putting up the board? This might allow you to reduce airflow through the downlighter circles so that only the wires come though a small gap in the criss crossing foil. I don't think that this is the best approach, unless you're determined to go it alone and get it done before the winter. If you do go this way, you'd need someone with more expertise to validate the material, this is just a guess on my part.

Kaisr Sose · 08-10-2016 10:42AM

Stoner wrote: »

Sure you can do this if you have the height. Its messy though as you'll have to skim it with plaster afterwards. And it might take some height from the space too.

If and I know it's an if you could cut a hatch. You could lay wool or spray between the joists then you could pass sheets of thermal board (not plaster backed) just foil and insulation up into the attic and lay it over the wool or spray filled timbers. This would be quick fast and effective.
The hatch would need to allow sheets up though

You could plaster the hatch up again do nobody would notice.

Under ceiling is messy

Thanks. Would love to go the route you outline , however the void is not on continuous space or anything near one. There is a steel frame with vertical struts too. This means nothing can be pushed or rolled across the entire expanse. The existing ceiling board is fixed directly to this steel frame all running one way-no beams at right angles. I will post some pics.
.

Alun · 08-10-2016 10:59AM

A bit extreme, but what about removing the plasterboard from the entire ceiling, attaching some light wooden joists to the steel frame and placing insulation between these, either solid, or wool held in place by a membrane or such stapled to the joists, and then replace the plasterboard?

Kaisr Sose · 08-10-2016 11:04AM

edanto wrote: »

(1) I'm a complete amateur and know nothing about building/regs etc

(2) I know you're asking for insulation advice, but I'm a big fan of the 'fix it once' approach and to me it seems like the best long term solution is to get together with all the other top floor owners in your block, and make a costed proposal to the Management Company to fix the roof (air/water) and safely insulate the 80cm attic space using funds from the apt owners and the sinking fund. This stops your investment losing value from water damage. It might turn out to be unrealistic, but at least find out what it costs and what support you might have from your neighbours/MC.

(3) If you do put a ~30mm board all over the ceiling, what happens at the downlighters? Will you be left with 10 circular gaps in your insulation through which your warm air is venting into the damp wet space?

(4) If you do put the ~30mm board on the ceiling, would you fix 2 or 3 layers of AluBubble to the ceiling before putting up the board? This might allow you to reduce airflow through the downlighter circles so that only the wires come though a small gap in the criss crossing foil. I don't think that this is the best approach, unless you're determined to go it alone and get it done before the winter. If you do go this way, you'd need someone with more expertise to validate the material, this is just a guess on my part.

Thanks for giving it some thought. There is some good information there.

Getting together with other owners is almost impossible.Most would not care to look or get involved. The OMC are well intended but have much bigger items to worry about - structural / construction and fire related. If the cost is reasonable here it should be self-financing over a few years, and I will hopefully get some refund from the OMC later.

I was incorrect to say void is 80cm, it's 30cm (bar one area where it's a higher) It is dry up there, but not cold. Temp outside last night 11deg. Living room 19deg. Void space almost 19deg. It should be a few degrees lower than that.

I could live without the downlighters – I don't use them due to them having halogen. I have always questioned having them as the holes were causing draughts. I am sure there must be some LED strip lighting I could use instead.

Options seem to be:

Full re-board
Over-board
Inject foam (subject to getting ok on its interaction with electric cabling)

Kaisr Sose · 08-10-2016 11:10AM

Alun wrote: »

A bit extreme, but what about removing the plasterboard from the entire ceiling, attaching some light wooden joists to the steel frame and placing insulation between these, either solid, or wool held in place by a membrane or such stapled to the joists, and then replace the plasterboard?

It's an option alright. Not sure about using wood (fire safety) but metal is just as workable. Food for thought!

Alun · 08-10-2016 12:02PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

It's an option alright. Not sure about using wood (fire safety) but metal is just as workable. Food for thought!

What do you think the vast majority of house ceilings are made of?

Kaisr Sose · 08-10-2016 12:43PM

Alun wrote: »

What do you think the vast majority of house ceilings are made of?

That's wonderful and great to know. Did you know that in apts there are additional considerations /regulations which prohibit the use of non-fire retardant materials in ducts and voids - of which my ceiling is one. Metal is the norm now.

On reflection, your proposed idea would be slower, and more labour intensive than putting up insulated board and offers no additional advantage to justify the attitional time. It may work in other settings but not in mine.

Stoner · 08-10-2016 03:51PM

Kaisr Sose wrote:

Thanks. Would love to go the route you outline , however the void is not on continuous space or anything near one. There is a steel frame with vertical struts too. This means nothing can be pushed or rolled across the entire expanse. The existing ceiling board is fixed directly to this steel frame all running one way-no beams at right angles. I will post some pics. .

Well I think you are on the right track.

I fitted 50mm thermal board to my place on the underside of the ceiling.

WRT to lights

Spots are a disaster for letting the cold back in I'd for for surface led lights of you so this, with very small holes to let the cables down.

My Brother in law did the same for his complete house

If at all possible a breathable spray is the way to go but your attic sounds like more of a void than an attic.

Right2Write · 08-10-2016 08:44PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Thanks.

The building regs have been breached all over Ireland and nobody gets called out for it. What I am attempting to here is remedy a breach of same. Your ideas on cutting holes may be lateral / helpful / creative thinking but not workable.

My internal height is 2470mm plus wooden floor of 15mm, so it will take up to 70mm retro fit board over existing board and still be within the regs. I am looking at board that's just 27mm if overboarding or 40ish if reslabbing.

I am skilled enough to install such board but most likely will get it done by a contactor to have the certs of compliance. Hope to get the grant but it's 50/50 of the construction date qualifies (from 2006 higher insulation standards were required - I got a lower standard)

Finally, we are all wiser after making a mistake. If you have never made one or never been misled or conned, then you are lucky.

You're quite right in that it is a disgrace that an apartment should be built/ sold without adequate insulation above it.

You're probably on the right lines with above but it will be an expensive and disruptive solution.

One thought did occur which you may already have considered: what about the sort of beads that are used in cavity wall insulation. Like these http://www.kingspanecobead.com/index.php/what-is-ecobead

Could you get a contractor to pump them into the void and spread them around evenly by a blower. Not really DIY unless you could borrow, hire or improvise equipment. But it might work in terms of filling around struts and irregular shapes etc. I don't know what the U value would be per depth and there might be an issue at the perimeter if there was no retaining boards or walls??

Kaisr Sose · 22-10-2016 10:42PM

Still have not did anything with this. As it's not cold or windy it's a comfortable 19deg in the evenings with no hearing. It won't last like this for much longer.

I am now leaning towards taking the ceiling down and putting roll insulation and finishing with standard foil back board. I would hold the insulation in place with a web of fine wire/ netting and then slab it all in place.

The links below show what I currently have- quite a mess up there (revealed with inspection camera and stills from video footage).

https://imageshack.com/i/pouBpYMdp

https://imageshack.com/i/pm7lZIxSp

Top is concrete slab - above that fresh air. Bottom is the reverse side of my ceiling. The ceiling was fitted off site and then the completed cubes were lifted in and electrics connected. Insulation should have been installed before the roof slab fitted. Corner cutting at its worst!

mickdw · 22-10-2016 11:09PM

I'd be willing to bet that the concrete slab is insulated on top with tapered insulation to create drainage slopes and roof surface installed over that.
It would appear to me that you have more of an air movement issue meaning that insulation above the void is useless to you.
Is your apartment properly separated within that void from other apartments? If the insulation above the void is not benefitting you, I'd suggest you are not at all sealed off from neighbouring apartment and could have fire issues.
The fire cert is a design document issued prior to construction with sign off by private Engineers employed by the developer so it's easy to see how this stuff came about. I am an Engineer who certifies mostly one off housing and have been doing for about 12 years.
I steered clear of commercial work in the boom as the system is so silly. If i was certifying an apartment block and told the developer I'm not having that, he would have simply said f off and got the next man in the line. It therefore was not worth being involved in. Plenty of take the money and run merchants did though.

Kaisr Sose · 22-10-2016 11:39PM

You sum it all up so well. The systemr was open to widespread abuse and was thus not fit for purpose.

I am told the concert slab is insulated but that's no use to me as my heat rises into the void. There are also massive air movement issues. Very elevated site, exposed to prevailing wind almost 100% of the time. On a cold windy night - impossible to heat the apt beyond 17/18 deg.

There are possible fire issues but they can't be fully established without extensive opening up works. I did video some panelling up there to indicate some degree of separation/protection. Who knows? Part of me wanting to strip it down is to see what's there/not there.

I know there are issues with the as built drawings v design spec, and also know that some building regs have been breached (a report was commisioned) The Mgt Co are in the process of legal action to secure funds to address those. I just can't wait anymore. I have high moisture readings in walls and ceilings, staining. And at worst, mould. I need to address these and hope I can get the Mgt Co to refund me for my work.

Any thoughts on the best way to address the insulation issue? I thought of overboarding but the board is manly fixed to steel so impossible to find these through existing ceiling.

The whole thing is a pain in the ass, f'd up, but I can't have it impact on me again this winter- it seems to get worse every year, so it's not a pleasant thought to be facing it again! I meant to address during summer but was in a cycle accident and unable to face further unheaval.

Kaisr Sose · 22-10-2016 11:48PM

Some pics showing some divider/compartmentalising.No idea if it complete/ without gaps

https://imageshack.com/i/pmSUl48ip

https://imageshack.com/i/pm78SND9p

mickdw · 23-10-2016 12:20AM

If it was mine id be inclined to seek permission to go into that void to fire seal the boundary line of the apartment assuming management company are not carryout these improvements. The boarding up there looks incomplete.
If you dont want to do that, check if you have ceiling height to spare. You will need 2.4m after any boarding.
I don't know exactly what system has been used to fix the current ceiling but it should be relatively easy to expose the location of fixings and fix new insulated slab in similar manner.
This would not be addressing issues above re fire separation and air movement but would at least hopefully improve day to day living conditions.

Kaisr Sose · 23-10-2016 08:49PM

Thanks. It's something I might have to do. Is it this photo where you think the insulation may be deficient ? It does not look right to me- lots more areas like it too!

https://imageshack.com/i/pm78SND9p

mickdw · 23-10-2016 11:36PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Thanks. It's something I might have to do. Is it this photo where you think the insulation may be deficient ? It does not look right to me- lots more areas like it too!

https://imageshack.com/i/pm78SND9p

Not insulation but would appear to be incomplete fire barrier although obviously from a photo, it's impossible to be sure - it could be packed behind and up to concrete with fire bat to make a full seal.

Top floor apt with no ceiling insulation!

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