Top floor apt with no ceiling insulation!

Kaisr Sose · 06-10-2016 11:32PM #1

There is no insulation in the void above my ceiling. I find it very hard to heat the apt – especially on a cold windy day. I have put a thermometer in the ceiling void and the temp is only a few degree below the 'interior' space. I assume this is because I am heating the void. Hard to believe it was specified like this. It's an exposed and elevated site so insulation should be better than average - not less.

I am considering insulated plaster board (27mm) over the existing plaster board. Is this recommended?

I moved in in 2007, but construction on the slab/ building cores started in 2006. Would this qualify for the SEAI grant ?

Steve · 06-10-2016 11:42PM

Have you access to the void?

Are you renting or an owner?

Is it foil backed board on top?

If you own, best bet would be go up there and lay insulation on top, provided there is a moisture barrier.

Kaisr Sose · 06-10-2016 11:55PM

I own it. Plaster is foil backed. I assume there is a moisture barrier in the roof - but there had been lots of issues with leaks. It's nowhere near a perfect build as they did not seal the outer 100% and there has been issues with interstitial condensation. Shocking really! My apt not too bad but leaks heat!

There is no access to the void without cutting the ceiling. All that's up there is the steel beams of the modular units, to which the ceiling joists are suspended from. Above that is the concert roof slab.

Pretty shocking that people think it's acceptable not to insulate above a living space.

GreenFolder2 · 06-10-2016 11:56PM

How old is it?

Steve · 06-10-2016 11:58PM

Foil backed = moisture barrier.

I'd cut a hole / install a hatch (unless security is an issue) and lay 400mm over the whole lot.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 12:01AM

Steve wrote: »

Foil backed = moisture barrier.

I'd cut a hole / install a hatch (unless security is an issue) and lay 400mm over the whole lot.

You might want to run this by the management company beforehand.

Steve · 07-10-2016 12:05AM

hurikane wrote: »

You might want to run this by the management company beforehand.

Why?

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 12:06AM

I had thought about that but it's a large space to fill that way. It would also require lots of holes to do it. Not workable unless you know a trick ?

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 12:07AM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

How old is it?

In OP - 2007

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 12:10AM

Steve wrote: »

Why?

Totally agree. They don't pay my heating bill. It's my space I am trying to protect here.
I would like the OMC to pay for this as the insulation should be in the roof void which falls under their remit. They will plead no money and still for time. The MUD Act is no use for things like this or possibly at all as the remedy is Circuit Court. Nobody wins except the legal people.

Steve · 07-10-2016 12:12AM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I had thought about that but it's a large space to fill that way. It would also require lots of holes to do it. Not workable unless you know a trick ?

Sorry, no tricks I know about.

There's a guy I know that I worked with years ago who is doing insulation of houses for a living now, pm me if you would like more info and I can put you in touch.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 12:14AM

Steve wrote: »

Why?

The OP would be making structural changes.
The area above the OPs apartment would fall under the management of the management company.

Steve · 07-10-2016 12:20AM

hurikane wrote: »

The OP would be making structural changes.
The area above the OPs apartment would fall under the management of the management company.

Removing plasterboard and laying insulation is not structural

Are you suggesting that the owners of the lower floors fork out to insulate the top floor? not gonna happen.

Don't forget, the apartment owners own the management company.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 12:30AM

hurikane wrote: »

The OP would be making structural changes.
The area above the OPs apartment would fall under the management of the management company.

Adding insulation that should be there is not a structural change - nor is adding more insulation if it's needed. I can't take another years of wearing a coat in my own home. I am healthy outdoor type and believe coats are best worn outside. :rolleyes:

Adding insulated plaster board on the interior facing side of the ceiling is nothing the OMC needs to worry about. They have enough to do dealing with potential fire safety and general breaches of building code in the building itself than worrying about me insulating the interior of my apt when the insulation should be there anyway.

No offence, I actually know apt living and OMC rights and wrongs very well – it's information on insulation I posted looking for.

Metric Tensor · 07-10-2016 12:34AM

If it was built in 2006 there should be insulation to the roof - if it's a flat roof there may be insulation on top of the concrete slab or decking.

Whether there is or not you're still cold. I wonder if air leakage might be as big a problem as insulation - it's worth looking around the edges of your ceiling void for poor construction details that are allowing the heated air to escape.

N.B. You will have vents in your apartment too. These are required and should not under any circumstances be closed but if there's undesigned air gaps and details they are well worth addressing.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 12:38AM

Steve wrote: »

Removing plasterboard and laying insulation is not structural

Are you suggesting that the owners of the lower floors fork out to insulate the top floor? not gonna happen.

Don't forget, the apartment owners own the management company.

Did you suggest cutting a hole and installing a hatch in the ceiling?

Metric Tensor · 07-10-2016 12:41AM

Two things:

If it's so cold you have to wear a coat it's more than just insulation that's wrong. There's draughts/air leaks somewhere.

Depending on how you install insulation and of what type you could be affecting or damaging fire safety.

hurikane · 07-10-2016 12:42AM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Adding insulation that should be there is not a structural change - nor is adding more insulation if it's needed. I can't take another years of wearing a coat in my own home. I am healthy outdoor type and believe coats are best worn outside. :rolleyes:

Adding insulated plaster board on the interior facing side of the ceiling is nothing the OMC needs to worry about. They have enough to do dealing with potential fire safety and general breaches of building code in the building itself than worrying about me insulating the interior of my apt when the insulation should be there anyway.

No offence, I actually know apt living and OMC rights and wrongs very well – it's information on insulation I posted looking for.

No offence taken or meant. I was replying to another poster who was suggesting you cut a hole in the ceiling, install a hatch and lay insulation in the void.

I'm sure that you know if you wanted to do that you'd need to consult the management company.

Steve · 07-10-2016 12:44AM

hurikane wrote: »

Did you suggest cutting a hole and installing a hatch in the ceiling?

Yes, not a structural change.
Removing joists would be structural, removing supporting walls would be structural. Removing a square of hanging foil backed gyproc is not.

What's your point there?

Steve · 07-10-2016 12:46AM

hurikane wrote: »

I'm sure that you know if you wanted to do that you'd need to consult the management company.

Again, why do you think this is so?

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 12:52AM

Metric Tensor wrote: »

If it was built in 2006 there should be insulation to the roof - if it's a flat roof there may be insulation on top of the concrete slab or decking.

Whether there is or not you're still cold. I wonder if air leakage might be as big a problem as insulation - it's worth looking around the edges of your ceiling void for poor construction details that are allowing the heated air to escape.

N.B. You will have vents in your apartment too. These are required and should not under any circumstances be closed but if there's undersigned air gaps and details they are well worth addressing.

You make good points. Homebond told me the concrete roof slab is insulated. This is wet paper bag stuff as cold air moves through this void at a rapid rate due to the many construction defects – some of which have been recorded / reported as breaches of building regs. Thus, my heat is sucked out into the 'insulated' void. Who approves insulating a void exterior face but makes no provision for insulating the interior side facing the void?

Essentially the building shell is neither substantially air tight or water tight. Some degree of breathability is normal but we are talking massive currents of exterior air getting into the interior through ducts and 'unsealed openings'. It is widely believe the wall insulation is wet in most blocks as the builders placed defective DPC in the roof capping and water is cascading downward. There are also hole in waterproof membrane on flat roof and interstitial condensation is a big issue.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 01:00AM

hurikane wrote: »

No offence taken or meant. I was replying to another poster who was suggesting you cut a hole in the ceiling, install a hatch and lay insulation in the void.

I'm sure that you know if you wanted to do that you'd need to consult the management company.

Let's not get bogged down in OMC stuff. A suggestion was made - in some cases it would be workable , but not for me. If it was workable, it would not be a structural change. Plaster board could never be regarded as structural nor would adding insulation. On the latter point, people add floor and wall acoustic insulation in apts all the time and no approval is necessary.

peter_dublin · 07-10-2016 01:48AM

To be honest OP. As a director as a Management Company you should contact them about this, 1, if your break through the ceiling into the management companies property, they own the roof space you can be in breach of your lease agreement. Next there is the issue of Fire Certificates and insurance again is you do this.

The next reason is I would expect the management company to remedy this, we have a 20 year old development and we are still uncovering and repairing building defects to this day including no insulation in 90% of the cavity walls which we had filled at the companies expense. Once insulated they should reinstate the ceiling to it's previous state.

All works should be done using insured contractors and certificates provided. Especially since you mentioned unsealed gaps and ducting's, this can be a fire risk and should be addressed which would go towards resolving your issue. Do you attend the AGM to raise your concerns / join the company board.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 09:54AM

peter_dublin wrote: »

To be honest OP. As a director as a Management Company you should contact them about this, 1, if your break through the ceiling into the management companies property, they own the roof space you can be in breach of your lease agreement. Next there is the issue of Fire Certificates and insurance again is you do this.

Good points but my initial question was about over boarding the existing ceiling. Cutting the ceiling is not an option I want to pursue.

The OMC know about this for years and have not done anything about it. To be honest, they have bigger problems. I can huff and puff but they will say no money, not priority etc.

My primary concern here is me, my apt, my heating bill, my internal environment. I am sure if I pay for the work, and have it done to building reg standard, I can purse me the OMC at a later date. Doing it the way you outline will mean many winters will pass and I will still be cold etc. Not a runner.

The OMC can't even get as built drawings from bust developer / receiver so they don't even know what is in these voids. How can they pursue me or any owner without knowing as built spec ? Taking someone to task for installing insulation that should be there is a bit haesh. Would they not be better going after those that designed , built and signed off such a poorly, constructed and insulated structure ?

Adding ceiling insulation that meets fire safety standards/ building regs is not going to make this building less fire safe. Remember, the council issued a fire cert to a building that has potential fire safety defects in its method of construction (still trying to be fully quantified 5 yea on) that they signed off without checking.

seamus · 07-10-2016 10:00AM

hurikane wrote: »

No offence taken or meant. I was replying to another poster who was suggesting you cut a hole in the ceiling, install a hatch and lay insulation in the void.

I'm sure that you know if you wanted to do that you'd need to consult the management company.

You really wouldn't. The void above the block would be considered common area - exactly like a bin shed. The management company doesn't need to be consulted for approval before you place things in a common area.

As has been mentioned, no owner could make a structural change without consulting the management company. But there is nothing stopping them from putting an access hatch from their apartment into it, laying insulation or even floorboards and using it for storage. Provided the apartment owner makes no structural or otherwise permanent changes to the attic, and doesn't plan on storing hazardous materials, the management company does not have to be consulted.

Yes, the OP should review his leasehold agreement, but I very much doubt you're going to find anything in there prohibiting access to or use of the attic.

One thing the OP might find is that he never needs to use his heating after insulating the attic because the heat of the rest of the apartments will become trapped in his.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 10:32AM

^^this is not relevant to me. It's not attic space (Max height 80cm). Accessing is pointless as there is only plaster board and stud joist to support a person, who would have to crawl along avoiding cable and the tops of plaster board fixings. You would need to cut so many holes it would be easier to take it all down.

Adding insulated plaster board is the easiest way to do this. So as per my OP - is over boarding recommended?

No more posts on accessing the void please.

Right2Write · 07-10-2016 01:09PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Adding insulated plaster board is the easiest way to do this. So as per my OP - is over boarding recommended?

A downside might be that you will reduce the floor to ceiling height, possibly below minimum specs. You'd want to measure the current floor to ceiling and check the regulations. As best I know, it's 2.44 metres or 8ft but don't take that for certain.

This might not affect you, you might be happy if the ceilings are a little lower. But it would probably have implications if you sell at some stage.

Also adding a slab of any thickness is going to be a bit of work in itself. You'll need to identify where the joists are, cut & fix, tidy up all the joints, extend any ceiling roses and re skim etc. Insulating the space above might well be simpler!

jaykayphd · 07-10-2016 01:41PM

Apologies to the OP for high jacking their thread. I too suffer from a cold top floor apartment. Built ~ 2000. There is a massive cold attic space above the apartment and the internal walls seem to continue up into this attic space. I fear these walls are acting like chimneys drawing warm air up and allowing cold air to descend into the internal apartment walls.

Would it be possible/advisable to cut some of the plaster out of these 'attic walls' at floor level, seal the gaps at the top of the internal walls somehow and ensure a continuous layer of fiberglass insulation throughout the attic space? I should add, there is fiberglass insulation up there at the moment, but this is compartmentalized in the attic due to the plasterboard walls.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 01:58PM

jaykayphd wrote: »

Apologies to the OP for high jacking their thread..

Can I suggest you start a separate thread - it's better for both of us.

Kaisr Sose · 07-10-2016 02:02PM

Right2Write wrote: »

Insulating the space above might well be simpler!

If you can tell me how to do that when there is no access to it and where there are electrical cables, central heating pipes and downlighting...pump up foam and cover the lot? Is this not counter productive to fitting insulated board?

Right2Write · 07-10-2016 02:49PM

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

If you can tell me how to do that when there is no access to it and where there are electrical cables, central heating pipes and downlighting...pump up foam and cover the lot? Is this not counter productive to fitting insulated board?

Well that's for you to figure out. I'm merely pointing out that your proposed solution of slabbing the ceilings in the rooms is not without problems and work. Incidentally you sometimes used to see (still do?) polystyrene tiles stuck to ceilings presumably for this purpose. Not sure how effective they are. Must be better than nothing but look tacky as well.

Incidentally, how do you know there is no insulation above the ceiling and how did you measure the temperature above, if you've no access??

There are companies providing insulation solutions and that 'pump foam' but these are normally applied to wall cavities as far as I know. Probably not a good idea to do this if there are electrical cables present..

Maybe you'd need to make a series of openings so that conventional loft insulation could be laid and then reinstate but sounds messy too.

Top floor apt with no ceiling insulation!

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