TV Licence Question?

GM228 · 25-09-2016 02:22PM

Discodog wrote: »

Can you link to the legislation rather than An Post's, who are new to tv enforcement. If you are correct then there would be no need for the proposed media tax.

Edit:
“television set” means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy designed primarily for the purpose of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1972/act/5/section/1/enacted/en/html#sec1

The highlighted clause ( my highlighting) clearly shows that a computer etc does not need a license as it's not it's primary purpose.

"Primary purpose" does not come into play. The definition from the 1972 Act was amended to read:-

“Television set” means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

Also your quote doesn't clearly show a computer etc dosn't require one as your quoting the wrong Act anyway.

TV Licences are issued under the Broadcasting Act 2009:-

“ television set ” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

Discodog · 25-09-2016 02:27PM

GM228 wrote: »

"Primary purpose" does not come into play. The definition from the 1972 Act was amended to read:-

Also your quote doesn't clearly show a computer etc dosn't require one as your quoting the wrong Act anyway.

TV Licences are issued under the Broadcasting Act 2009:-

What's the definition of general reception ? A TV or a device with a TV tuner. Not a computer.

GM228 · 25-09-2016 04:51PM

Discodog wrote: »

What's the definition of general reception ? A TV or a device with a TV tuner. Not a computer.

General reception isn't defined in any of the Acts, but it's in relation to the type of broadcast sent - it means a broadast which is for widespread reception, what has that got to do with a tuner? A general broadcast can be sent via the internet.

If you reveive the broadcast on a computer via a device you are reveiving the broadcast and liable to the licence.

Johnboy1951 · 25-09-2016 05:08PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

How can you receive a broadcast tv signal without a tuner?
If it's over the air or on cable, it needs to be mixed down from a carrier signal, and decoded aka tuned

If you get it from a decoder box it's still received and decided by the box. You need more than a monitor to exhibit the tv

GM228 wrote: »

General reception isn't defined in any of the Acts, but it's in relation to the type of broadcast sent - it means a broadast which is for widespread reception, what has that got to do with a tuner? A general broadcast can be sent via the internet.

If you reveive the broadcast on a computer via a device you are reveiving the broadcast and liable to the licence.

It refers to a wireless telegraphy broadcast signal, as you quoted earlier

GM228 wrote:

“Television set” means any apparatus for wireless telegraphy capable of receiving and exhibiting television programmes broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

Reception of IPTV is not required to be licenced at present.

Discodog · 25-09-2016 05:08PM

GM228 wrote: »

General reception isn't defined in any of the Acts, but it's in relation to the type of broadcast sent - it means a broadast which is for widespread reception, what has that got to do with a tuner? A general broadcast can be sent via the internet.

If you reveive the broadcast on a computer via a device you are reveiving the broadcast and liable to the licence.

I believe, based on what an Inspector told me a couple of years ago, that it means normal everyday tv. A signal produced by the broadcaster that is transmitted.

So a Sky box needs a license, Saorview box does, a dvd recorder does if it has a tuner but a computer doesn't. I remember seeing some laptops for sale that had tv tuners - referred to a media centres. They had a sticker on stating that they needed a license. Non of the other ones did.

TheChizler · 25-09-2016 06:18PM

The text has been quoted a few times, but there's a general catch all in the legislation which technically means a monitor needs a licence, the bit about whether it's use is dependent or not on some external apparatus. As people have pointed out they don't tend to prosecute when you have a monitor, and cases have been dismissed when tuners have been disabled, but you're basically betting on what they're willing to prosecute or the judge's mood on the day. Nobody can say with 100% certainty what's ok, but a basic PC monitor or projector will probably be ok.

Johnboy1951 · 25-09-2016 06:30PM

TheChizler wrote: »

The text has been quoted a few times, but there's a general catch all in the legislation which technically means a monitor needs a licence, the bit about whether it's use is dependent or not on some external apparatus. As people have pointed out they don't tend to prosecute when you have a monitor, and cases have been dismissed when tuners have been disabled, but you're basically betting on what they're willing to prosecute or the judge's mood on the day. Nobody can say with 100% certainty what's ok, but a basic PC monitor or projector will probably be ok.

No, a monitor on its own does not need a licence and there is nothing in the legislation that says it does.
A monitor (the display unit) in combination with a tuner (receive broadcast e.g STB or a USB tuner in a PC etc etc) would require a licence.
There is no ambiguity.

Discodog · 25-09-2016 06:35PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

No, a monitor on its own does not need a licence and there is nothing in the legislation that says it does.
A monitor (the display unit) in combination with a tuner (receive broadcast e.g STB or a USB tuner in a PC etc etc) would require a licence.
There is no ambiguity.

Exactly because a monitor on it's own can't receive tv signals.

TheChizler · 25-09-2016 06:47PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

The text has been quoted a few times, but there's a general catch all in the legislation which technically means a monitor needs a licence, the bit about whether it's use is dependent or not on some external apparatus. As people have pointed out they don't tend to prosecute when you have a monitor, and cases have been dismissed when tuners have been disabled, but you're basically betting on what they're willing to prosecute or the judge's mood on the day. Nobody can say with 100% certainty what's ok, but a basic PC monitor or projector will probably be ok.

No, a monitor on its own does not need a licence and there is nothing in the legislation that says it does.
A monitor (the display unit) in combination with a tuner (receive broadcast e.g STB or a USB tuner in a PC etc etc) would require a licence.
There is no ambiguity.

I know, but this is the part of legislation I'm referring to:

whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it

It is capable of receiving and displaying a television signal if some sort of set top box converts the television signal into a signal format the monitor can process. I'm not in favour of this applying, I just don't see how this quote doesn't technically catch any sort of monitor or projector. Tvs these days are just PC monitors with integrated set top boxes.

The legislation is deliberately vague and open. That said you're likely to get away with it.

Discodog · 25-09-2016 06:51PM

TheChizler wrote: »

I know, but this is the part of legislation I'm referring to:

It is capable of receiving and displaying a television signal if some sort of set top box converts the television signal into a signal format the monitor can process. I'm not in favour of this applying, I just don't see how this quote doesn't technically catch any sort of monitor or projector. Tvs these days are just PC monitors with integrated set top boxes.

The legislation is deliberately vague and open. That said you're likely to get away with it.

Where does that quote come from ? It would mean that an aerial or dish would need a license when I know that it doesn't.

TheChizler · 25-09-2016 06:58PM

Discodog wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

I know, but this is the part of legislation I'm referring to:

It is capable of receiving and displaying a television signal if some sort of set top box converts the television signal into a signal format the monitor can process. I'm not in favour of this applying, I just don't see how this quote doesn't technically catch any sort of monitor or projector. Tvs these days are just PC monitors with integrated set top boxes.

The legislation is deliberately vague and open. That said you're likely to get away with it.

Where does that quote come from ? It would mean that an aerial or dish would need a license when I know that it doesn't.

Broadcasting act. It's been quoted above somewhere. Very technically yes; by referring to the law alone it would (and the law is deliberately vague and ridiculous; technically a piece of coax would need a licence since you could receive and display a signal if you added a tv). In practice no, but I'm only referring to legislation.

Discodog · 25-09-2016 07:32PM

Maybe they would be better explaining who doesn't need a license rather than focusing on your name in the paper :pac:

GM228 · 26-09-2016 04:12AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It refers to a wireless telegraphy broadcast signal, as you quoted earlier

That's incorrect, TV Licences are issued under the Broadcasting Act 2009 (Section 143) as I already stated, not the Wireless Telegraphy Acts, infact neither "wireless" or "telegraphy" come into play or are even mentioned for a TV licence or a broadcast in the 2009 Act.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Reception of IPTV is not required to be licenced at present.

Also incorrect, if you make yourself familiar with the 2009 Act you will see IPTV does require a TV licence, it is specifically mentioned as a valid electronic communications network which is transmitted for a broadcast service.

Any laptop, PC, monitor etc with a display size of more than 160 cm2, capable of displaying television channels distributed by a broadcast network (e.g. cable, satellite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) using a television tuner card or related device require a licence.

Discodog · 26-09-2016 08:03AM

GM228 wrote: »

That's incorrect, TV Licences are issued under the Broadcasting Act 2009 (Section 143) as I already stated, not the Wireless Telegraphy Acts, infact neither "wireless" or "telegraphy" come into play or are even mentioned for a TV licence or a broadcast in the 2009 Act.

Also incorrect, if you make yourself familiar with the 2009 Act you will see IPTV does require a TV licence, it is specifically mentioned as a valid electronic communications network which is transmitted for a broadcast service.

Any laptop, PC, monitor etc with a display size of more than 160 cm2, capable of displaying television channels distributed by a broadcast network (e.g. cable, satellite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) using a television tuner card or related device require a licence.

So you are really saying that every single tablet, laptop & pc in the State requires a TV License. Expect a long queue at your local Post Office :rolleyes:

If you have a television set at your business premises it is your legal obligation to have a valid TV Licence. There is no requirement to have a TV Licence for each set as one TV Licence covers all TV sets at a single premises.

http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/Personal+Customers/More+from+An+Post/TV+Licence/TV+Licence+home

No mention of computers.

Discodog · 26-09-2016 08:17AM

I suggested earlier than, not unexpectedly, An Post have got it wrong.

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence.

http://www.dccae.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/broadcasting-media/Pages/TV-Licence-FAQs.aspx#

GM228 · 26-09-2016 08:34AM

Discodog wrote: »

So you are really saying that every single tablet, laptop & pc in the State requires a TV License. Expect a long queue at your local Post Office :rolleyes:

If you have a television set at your business premises it is your legal obligation to have a valid TV Licence. There is no requirement to have a TV Licence for each set as one TV Licence covers all TV sets at a single premises.

http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/Personal+Customers/More+from+An+Post/TV+Licence/TV+Licence+home

No mention of computers.

Every single laptop, PC and tablet?

Every device with a 160cm2 or more screen meets the requirement for a licence. Obviously you only require one licence per premises, I never said otherwise.

GM228 · 26-09-2016 08:35AM

Discodog wrote: »

I suggested earlier than, not unexpectedly, An Post have got it wrong.

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence.

http://www.dccae.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/broadcasting-media/Pages/TV-Licence-FAQs.aspx#

So how have An Post got it wrong? Your quote backs up exactly what they have said!

Discodog · 26-09-2016 08:40AM

GM228 wrote: »

Every single laptop, PC and tablet?

Every device with a 160cm2 or more screen meets the requirement for a licence.

12cm x 12cm :rolleyes:

Discodog · 26-09-2016 08:45AM

GM228 wrote: »

Via Broadband for example.
As I said the legislation is simply about a device with a capability of receiving and exhibiting a TV broadcast service (not a TV broadcast signal) whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it.
If you are viewing a TV broadcast service via Broadband you satisfy the legislative requirement and you don't even have a tuner - no tuner does not necessarily mean no licence.

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence.

An Post:

I only watch TV content on a monitor, Do I need a TV Licence?
You require a TV Licence in the following circumstances:

Connecting a SKY/Virgin Media/Saorview or any type of Digital TV Receiver to your monitor
Viewing any content provided by a TV service provider over broadband (e.g. Eir TV/Vodafone TV) on your monitor

Department of Communications:

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No.

GM228 · 26-09-2016 08:55AM

Discodog wrote: »

12cm x 12cm :rolleyes:

Close, it's actually 12.65cm x 12.65cm

Discodog wrote: »

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence.

An Post:

I only watch TV content on a monitor, Do I need a TV Licence?
You require a TV Licence in the following circumstances:

Connecting a SKY/Virgin Media/Saorview or any type of Digital TV Receiver to your monitor
Viewing any content provided by a TV service provider over broadband (e.g. Eir TV/Vodafone TV) on your monitor

Department of Communications:

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No.

Perhaps you should re-read your quotes beyond the "no", both quotes agree with each other.

This is the important part:-

"No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting network using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence"

If your watching a broadcast over the internet then your computer is able to display and the no becomes "yes"!

Discodog · 26-09-2016 09:41AM

GM228 wrote: »

Close, it's actually 12.65cm x 12.65cm

Perhaps you should re-read your quotes beyond the "no", both quotes agree with each other.

This is the important part:-

"No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting network using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence"

If your watching a broadcast over the internet then your computer is able to display and the no becomes "yes"!

You forgot this bit but then again you stated earlier that there was no mention of tuners.

GM228 · 26-09-2016 09:53AM

Discodog wrote: »

You forgot this bit but then again you stated earlier that there was no mention of tuners.

I said there is no mention of tuners in the legislation, quoting websites is not a source of law or a true indication of the legal requirements, but to satisfy your quote you do know that your WIFI adaptor or ethernet port are "devices" within your computer that enable it to connect to the internet via yet another device - the modem. Therefore if your watching a TV broadcast via the Internet you are using a device to do so.

Legislation simply requires that you receive and view a broadcast, watching TV on your computer is receiving and viewing a broadcast.

I suggest you read the Broadcasting Act 2009 as already mentioned several times and you will see any electronic device which capable of receiving and displaying a broadcast is liable for the licence - weather or not that capability is dependent on another device.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/act/18/enacted/en/html

So based on the legislation:-

“ television set ” means any electronic apparatus [i.e the LAPTOP/PC] capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it [i.e the MODEM]) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus.

Is a laptop/PC an electronic aparatus? Yes.

Can it retireve and view a TV broadcast via the use of something in conjunction with it? Yes.

Johnboy1951 · 26-09-2016 01:11PM

@GM228

OK, I finally see where you are coming from. I admit I was concentrating on the hardware side of things too much.

“ broadcast ” means the transmission, relaying or distribution by electronic communications network ....

“ electronic communications network ” means using something

which permit the conveyance of signals by wire, by radio, by optical or by other electromagnetic means, and such conveyance includes the use of—

(i) satellite networks,

(ii) electricity cable systems, to the extent that they are used for the purposes of transmitting signals,

(iii) fixed terrestrial networks (both circuit-switched and packet-switched, including the Internet),

(iv) mobile terrestrial networks,

(v) networks used for either or both sound and television broadcasting, and

(vi) cable television and internet protocol television networks, ...

Is Internet Television covered by (iii) above?
IPTV seems to be covered by (vi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPTV
What about 'catch-up' TV?
This rapidly gets confusing.

http://www.dccae.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/broadcasting-media/Pages/TV-Licence-FAQs.aspx

Q. Do I require a TV Licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a Television Licence.

The only thing to prevent a PC from accessing IPTV is a suitable software program, such as
https://bestwinsoft.com/internet/internet-tv/iptv-player-simpletv

So all PCs fall under the licence requirement?

26-09-2016 01:20PM

GM228 wrote: »

Every device with a 160cm2 or more screen meets the requirement for a licence.

Where is the reference to 160cm2 coming from? I've never seen any TV licence legislation mention a specific size of device

GM228 · 26-09-2016 01:25PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

@GM228

OK, I finally see where you are coming from. I admit I was concentrating on the hardware side of things too much.

“ electronic communications network ” means using something

Is Internet Television covered by (iii) above?
IPTV seems to be covered by (vi).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPTV
What about 'catch-up' TV?
This rapidly gets confusing.

http://www.dccae.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/broadcasting-media/Pages/TV-Licence-FAQs.aspx

The only thing to prevent a PC from accessing IPTV is a suitable software program, such as
https://bestwinsoft.com/internet/internet-tv/iptv-player-simpletv

So all PCs fall under the licence requirement?

Internet TV (services through the public internet) are exempt.

You don't need any specfic software for IPTV, just your normal browser, Netflix and catch up TV such as the RTE Player and 3Player for example are all forms of IPTV.

GM228 · 26-09-2016 02:06PM

28064212 wrote: »

Where is the reference to 160cm2 coming from? I've never seen any TV licence legislation mention a specific size of device

The Television Licence (Exemption of Classes of Television Set) Order 2009 which was issued under S142 (3) of the Broadasting Act 2009.

Discodog · 26-09-2016 04:46PM

GM228 wrote: »

I said there is no mention of tuners in the legislation, quoting websites is not a source of law or a true indication of the legal requirements, but to satisfy your quote you do know that your WIFI adaptor or ethernet port are "devices" within your computer that enable it to connect to the internet via yet another device - the modem. Therefore if your watching a TV broadcast via the Internet you are using a device to do so.

Judge I read this on the Department website - case dismissed

But Judge he should of studied the Broadcasting Act :pac:

Whatever legalise you impart the facts are that you will not be prosecuted for no license if you possess a monitor connected to the internet. I contacted An Post to check

Oh & they admitted that their faq wording "could cause confusion"

GM228 · 26-09-2016 05:23PM

Discodog wrote: »

Judge I read this on the Department website - case dismissed

But Judge he should of studied the Broadcasting Act :pac:

Unfortunately ignorance of the law is not an excuse, I'm not sure what courts you have or have not visited but judges go by the law - as in statute or common law, not what is written on a website.

And if you did use the "I read this on the Department website Judge" defence then the judge would probably throw the book at you as it confirmed you need one as per your own quotes

Not a great defence!

Discodog wrote: »

Whatever legalise you impart the facts are that you will not be prosecuted for no license if you possess a monitor connected to the internet. I contacted An Post to check

Oh & they admitted that their faq wording "could cause confusion"

But it dosn't matter anyway I suppose if they say they won't bring a prosecution

Discodog · 26-09-2016 05:28PM

GM228 wrote: »

Unfortunately ignorance of the law is not an excuse, I'm not sure what courts you have or have not visited but judges go by the law as in statute, not what is written on a website.

And if you did use the "I read this on the Department website Judge" defence then the judge would probably throw the book at you as it confirmed you need one as per your own quotes

Not a great defence!

But it dosn't matter anyway I suppose if they say they won't bring a prosecution!

Lots & lots. I volunteered for Citizens Advice in the UK & attended Court as the scourge of the legal profession - The McKensie Friend. Irish Judges may be a different breed but I suspect that they would side with a defendant who took his information from a faq on a Dept website.

AryaStark · 26-09-2016 05:40PM

Adamzapple777 wrote: »

Thanks, but which is it?
The TV has an aerial socket I think but there is no aerial of any kind in the house so it can't receive a signal.
This is a student house and the people living there have no interest in watching RTE or any other TV channel, they won't be there long enough to warrant buying a TV Licence for a year.
They have no problem allowing a TV inspector to verify the setup if necessary.

I had this issue before and had to get the tv removed. I rented a flat that had a tv but I did not use it and it was never plugged in! The tv inspector said it didn't matter and that I still needed a tv licence. I got the landlord to remove the tv from the apartment.

TV Licence Question?

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