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Should we allow Irish to die out?

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2

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    #32
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,004 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    learn_more wrote: »
    It would still be the same overall.

    We would still have sunsets and rainbows.

    And one word for snow.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #33
    jimmy blevins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 475 ✭✭jimmy blevins


    Fingalian the native language of fingal died out in the 19th century.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingallian


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    #34
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    learn_more wrote: »
    I'm more concerned with Elephants and Rhinos becoming extinct , than a language.

    Egyptian Hieroglyphs are extinct, but who could care less.

    As a matter of interest, why would the extinction of elephants and rhinos bother you?
    The rhino certainly is of no practical use to mankind,


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    #35
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    According to the United nations, one language goes extinct every fortnight. That rate is alarming but is, I feel, a consequence of an ever interconnected globalised world.

    And I also believe that unless radical changes are made to education policy, Irish will effectively be extinct before the end of this century.

    Link:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/18cnd-language.html?_r=0


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    #36
    FanadMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭FanadMan


    mzungu wrote: »
    Ah no, TG4 has had some great shows over the years. Granted most of them are from the states....but still.

    Within a week of the bloody stupid ban on The Exorcist in Ireland bring lifted, TG4 (TnG) showed it. And very soon after that, The Life of Brian (yet another ban due to the religious bias rife in the country at the time). For a channel that some people in here seem to regard as outdated/blind/republican/dead, they seem to enjoy throwing two fingers at the establishment.

    While I don't speak Irish all the time, I do speak it now and again every day. It just depends who I'm talking to. With my two closest friends, one is local and has fluent Irish....the other is English and has a few words of Irish.

    Sorry mzungu for ranting in a reply to your post but once I started typing I couldn't stop.


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    #37
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Too many threads on this topic over the years . . . . . .

    No is the answer to the original question.

    also, it shouldn't be mandatory after inter cert.

    We speak English.


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    #38
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,553 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I don't want to see Irish die out, and don't mind seeing money spent to help it survive.

    I wouldn't necessarily see it as the waste that others do, but that doesn't mean just throwing money at it - we need to be looking at other revitalisation programmes and learning from them.

    Still, I don't think that the most optimistic scenario is much more than helping it survive...it will never be anything other than a community language in a tiny number of places.


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    #39
    chopperbyrne
    Registered Users Posts: 10,973 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Don't mind it being taught in primary school, but it should be optional in secondary school.


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    #40
    The flying mouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭The flying mouse


    I hope we don't loose the Irish language, I agree its was horrible the way it was forced on us in the 70,s.You grew to just hate it, But times change and I think it be great to have it spoken more widely, Having a country bilingually be nice :-) So to answer to Op , No.


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    #41
    crummymummy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭crummymummy


    We would be irresponsible as a nation to let it die out, whether the majority support the language or not.


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    #42
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Would it? I like the diversity of languages in the world, its beautiful

    It's extremely inefficient. It's a communication system at the end of the day. They all serve the same purpose, so why not just use one?


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    #43
    Olishi4
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭Olishi4


    I don't speak fluent Irish but I know in school, it was always important to me.

    Not everything you learn in school is completely for practical purposes.


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    #44
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Olishi4 wrote: »
    I don't speak fluent Irish but I know in school, it was always important to me.

    Not everything you learn in school is completely for practical purposes.

    I did my primary and secondary education in Irish. Sat all my leaving cert subjects in Irish. Complete waste of time. A dead language in the real world. Pidgin Irish is the only type spoken outside of academics.


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    #45
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    Irish is an example of an official policy out of step with the practical realities of everyday life. It is our first Official Language yet very few people use it in everyday contact with government officials such as Tax and Social Welfare. Students spend a lot of time at it because it is one of three core compulsory subjects, other nations spend more time on practical subjects such as Maths and Science to the detriment of our students ability to compete in the modern globalised economy. More time should be spent at school by most average students in sharpening their Maths and general Communications skills and while Irish may help in the communications side of things, a modern European language at an early age would be more helpful.

    Perhaps we should look at what the Welsh are doing with their Language? Do all Welsh residents have to study Welsh at all Primary and Secondary Schools in the Principality? Is the study of Welsh concentrated in Welsh speaking areas?

    A similar thing happens in Scotland where only the native speakers or people wanting to work in areas with a significant native speaking population have to learn the Scots Gaelic language.

    In Ireland everybody has to learn 14 yrs of Irish yet only 1% are native speakers.


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    #46
    jimmy blevins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 475 ✭✭jimmy blevins


    We could just copy Wales or NI but that would be far too easy and probably be opposed by the unions and quangos anyway.


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    #47
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    doolox wrote: »
    Irish is an example of an official policy out of step with the practical realities of everyday life. It is our first Official Language yet very few people use it in everyday contact with government officials such as Tax and Social Welfare. Students spend a lot of time at it because it is one of three core compulsory subjects, other nations spend more time on practical subjects such as Maths and Science to the detriment of our students ability to compete in the modern globalised economy. More time should be spent at school by most average students in sharpening their Maths and general Communications skills and while Irish may help in the communications side of things, a modern European language at an early age would be more helpful.

    Perhaps we should look at what the Welsh are doing with their Language? Do all Welsh residents have to study Welsh at all Primary and Secondary Schools in the Principality? Is the study of Welsh concentrated in Welsh speaking areas?

    A similar thing happens in Scotland where only the native speakers or people wanting to work in areas with a significant native speaking population have to learn the Scots Gaelic language.

    In Ireland everybody has to learn 14 yrs of Irish yet only 1% are native speakers.

    It's something I mention whenever this topic comes up. The question isn't should we be teaching Irish to kids but rather can we? After nearly a hundred years of compulsory Irish most people can't speak it. Most students end up learning phrases and sentences off by rote for the oral exams. Unless we can change the syllabus to insure that after 14 years of daily lessons our kids can speak it then we might as well give up. We're flushing time and money down the toilet.


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    #48
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    FIrst year secondary,every one gets a form ,
    Do you wish to study irish.Its voluntary .sign here .
    yes,no.

    OR maybe consider studying a subject that has some relevance to real life in 2016.
    And that may help you get a job.
    french,german,science, computer coding .chemistry .I went to class,s in irish i put zero effort in irish.
    it had no effect on my life.
    I put effort into real subjects, history,chemistry,english etc
    irish is great if you are going to work in tg4, or as an irish teacher.
    maybe 1 per cent of jobs in the real world.


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    #49
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    It's extremely inefficient. It's a communication system at the end of the day. They all serve the same purpose, so why not just use one?

    Its more than that. Its a huge part of human culture. Food is just fuel for the body after all, why don't we all just eat some kind of blended mush that includes all the calories and fat and nutrients we need for the day instead of eating creating a variety of complex dishes and foods we like... Diversity is something that should be valued.


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    #50
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Its more than that. Its a huge part of human culture. Food is just fuel for the body after all, why don't we all just eat some kind of blended mush that includes all the calories and fat and nutrients we need for the day instead of eating creating a variety of complex dishes and foods we like... Diversity is something that should be valued.

    It's a problem when most of the world's populaton cannot understand each other.


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    #51
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    It's a problem when most of the world's populaton cannot understand each other.

    Fair enough. Im sure some kind of real time voice translator will be created in the future though, doesn't seem that outlandish to me. And seems like a more ethical route to pursue than killing off all world languages but one.


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    #52
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    riclad wrote: »
    it had no effect on my life.
    I put effort into real subjects, history,chemistry,english etc
    And you've used both history and chemistry since leaving school? Obviously the English was a bit of a waste of time.


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    #53
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Irish will never die out,
    there,ll be x per cent of people who speak irish,
    people in the gaeltacht .Teachers .
    Like theres people who play the fiddle ,write poetry etc
    meanwhile ordinary students can study chemistry ,coding,english,history etc
    eg it will be studied by people who really want to study it.


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    #54
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Considering the Dail has a very high percentage of Irish speakers, I don't forsee anything changing for the next generation atleast.

    I wouldn't like to see it die out, but current education policy is actually doing the language more harm than good, by secondary school students resent as the it compulsory.

    Could the language be taught as purely spoken? whatever about speaking it, writing it is an even bigger waste of time and resources.


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    #55
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Senna wrote: »
    Considering the Dail has a very high percentage of Irish speakers, I don't forsee anything changing for the next generation atleast.

    I wouldn't like to see it die out, but current education policy is actually doing the language more harm than good, by secondary school students resent as the it compulsory.

    Could the language be taught as purely spoken? whatever about speaking it, writing it is an even bigger waste of time and resources.

    So true. The essays we had to write during the leaving cert were just mind numbingly boring


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    #56
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,018 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    wakka12 wrote: »
    So true. The essays we had to write during the leaving cert were just mind numbingly boring
    Were the English essays not boring? Or those letters to your new French penpal?


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    #57
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Were the English essays not boring? Or those letters to your new French penpal?

    Of course they were, but at least there is some justification for learning a language spoken by 80+ million people or a language YOU actually speak.


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    #58
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Were the English essays not boring? Or those letters to your new French penpal?

    English was a lot more interesting, at least we actually got to learn about some decent literature. Irish was all about your favourite hobbies and the material was just generally so generic and juvenile, felt like I was in junior infants again


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    #59
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    NO , whats the point of studying english ? its only used by billions of people all over the world in business and on the web .
    When i went to school in the 70s, you had to study at least at least 7 subjects ,
    At least chemistry is a science still used in 2016.
    i find history and geography interesting.
    I,M sure google and facebook will give you a job cos you got an A in irish .
    They dont care about your expertise in tech,coding and maths ,science
    or interest in web design ,programming
    There are milllions of websites in english, covering technology,politics
    science ,culture ,news .
    in Real life irish is useful for teacher,s , tg4 presenters .
    Maybe useful if you live in the gaeltacht .
    95 per cent of irish people speak english every day.
    Should we spend billions teaching irish so a few hundred people can work in rte and tg4 ?
    Meanwhile some pupils go to school in portacabins while they wait
    20 years to get school building funded.
    i was interested in every subject apart from irish .


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    #60
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I do think it's taught badly, and I also reckon part of that is the general malaise towards other languages in English-dominant countries. The most useful language to know in a large part of the world is English. Due to that, a lot of people with English as their first language end up monolingual, more so than countries that learn it as a second language due to necessity. I would even go out on a limb and say that if, say, French was our first language (i.e. the language that the majority speak in day-to-day life as their most known language), we'd probably be French/English fluent and maybe even have a better grasp of Irish.

    Learning a second language apparently does improve your ability to pick up other ones. I suspect that the best thing to actually help the language along in a small way is anyone that -does- have Irish, speaks it to their children from a very young age, so they pick it up naturally rather than trying to impose it once they're past the stage of naturally picking up languages. They'd do the same to their kids and it would gradually improve fluency. I appreciate this is playing the long game though :P
    riclad wrote: »
    At least chemistry is a science still used in 2016.
    i find history and geography interesting.
    I,M sure google and facebook will give you a job cos you got an A in irish .
    They dont care about your expertise in tech,coding and maths ,science
    or interest in web design ,programming
    -
    Should we spend billions teaching irish so a few hundred people can work in rte and tg4 ?
    Meanwhile some pupils go to school in portacabins while they wait
    20 years to get school building funded.
    i was interested in every subject apart from irish .

    Yeah, but we don't study subjects based on what you're interested in. And Google won't care about your ability or interest in history either, so that's a bit of a daft comparison. Also, while I may not -agree- with Irish being compulsory for teaching, why do you say "for a few hundred people to work in RTE and TG4", when you've already pointed out that it's useful, even compulsory, for teaching, which is a pretty big sector.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Any claims that the language is dead or dying are hyperbole. It's not even, depending on how you want to measure these things, an endangered language.

    A minority language, certainly, but a thriving one. Some people seem to hate it though for some reason... I suggest they dial that hatred down to a general apathy and everyone would be much happier!


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