Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

In Kilkenny, we need to mentally deal with the loss of key players for the final better. It is still 15 on 15.

Just from a history point of view. Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 1972 beating Cork. In 1973, we suffered the losses of Eddie Keher, Kieran Purcell, Jim Treacy and Eamonn Morrissey as well as losing Frank Cummins early on. Limerick beat us. Twelve months later in 1974 we were champions again and again in 1975.

Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 2009 beating Tipperary. In 2010, we suffered the losses of Henry Shefflin, Brian Hogan and effectively, John Tennyson. Tipperary beat us. Twelve months later in 2011 we were champions again and again in 2012.

Kilkenny won the All-Ireland in 2015. In 2016, we all know about Michael Fennelly and you could possibly add Ger Aylward and James Maher. Who would genuinely bet against us in twelve months and two years time??



I agree that there are a lot of very good players coming through. Blanchfield and Kelly both did well in their baptisms. Others are very promising. The issue we face is that the vast majority of good players coming through are forwards. Natural backs are scarce. Some of the better defensive prospects coming through have either lost form or departed for other pastures. There is a challenge there. Lets not forget how well our intermediate team did this year winning the All-Ireland and scoring for fun, though they did have defensive issues too.



The other area of challenge is the whole area between minor and Under-21. As I ve mentioned on numerous occasions, the amount of players now in Kierans College where they are getting plenty of training but the vast majority are not getting matches of note. Kierans have a senior panel of over 40 players where only 18 are actually playing the key league/championship games. Lots of these should be with their local school getting match experience that would be more beneficial (there was no Kierans player involved in minor final yesterday or last year for that matter). After the historic Under-17 win last week (Without key Kierans/CBS players!), we should be favourites for Minor in 2017, but I wonder

There also seems to be a relative lack of Kilkenny representation on Fitzgibbon teams. Anyone wonder why? This is a key area of player development. Cyril Farrell mentioned several lads from the Tipp team who were stars with their third level institute. Had we any?



We lost ONE MATCH to a better team yesterday. That s all. No need for panic, but there is a need to review and ensure continuous improvement. Under-19 development squads?? Understand our Fitzgibbon representation. Review of underage structures in conjunction with the age grade changes at inter county level That ll be a tough one for every county in what was a very poorly thought out move.



In Cody s era, we didn t panic after 1999, 2004, 2010 or 2013. Lets not panic now. Congrats to Tipp for now.

Spot on hawkeye

First, congratulations to Tipp, they have been unlucky to come out on the wrong side on a few occasions. They play a nice brand of hurling and are deserving champions. From a kk point of view, I couldn't fault the effort put in. I don't think we had the same hunger as Tipp but that is understandable. I thought our touch has been a bit off all year and this continued. I also thought our tactics weren't right and we played into Tipps hands by leaving our backs so exposed. The losses of Michael Fennelly, Ger Aylward and James Maher didn't help and you would have loved to have a fully fit Richie Power. Still, we had some good days this year and hopefully there will be more to come next year.

Michael Kavanagh wrote: »

What are you talking about did the man not get an allstar last year he must have doing something right , as regards Joe Canning you get sick of hearing excuses about him.

Ye could have done with a bit of a Joe-show yesterday, considering the no-show of the forwards.

I don't even know where to start with that.... I think and hope it's a piss take...

mullinr2 wrote: »

Right lads this year is done and dusted, I'd say Cody is already thinking about next year. We need 3 new backs. Walsh, Murphy and Buckley are 100% safe. Im sorry but Holden and Pender don't inspire confidence in me and Joyce had a few good years but had a bad one this year.
If Tipp keep the same intensity for next year no one will come close to them. We need to build for maybe winning the All Ireland in 3/4 years. Tipp will win a 3 in a row.
We need to build a new team. Rob Lennon CB. Maybe move Cillian Buckley to full back. JJ worked a treat there why can't Buckley.
Luke Scanlon Midfield with Fogarty. We can't rely on Fennelly to be fit unfortunately.
TJ, Walter and Richie Hogan
Ger Alyward, Fennelly and Kevin Kelly. We need skillful players like Kelly in the team. He did well yesterday. We need to feed the ball into the full forward line much better so players like Alyward and Kelly can shine.
Have players like Alan Murphy Richie leahy, Liam Blanchfield on the bench to bring on. Eoin Larkin might retire but if not he doesn't have the legs to play a full 70 mins.
Cody needs to change things. We won't win with the same panel and style of play.

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

A key contributor to KKs problems are well documented on these websites numerous times, but the main one is the poor performance of our U-21 system. The minors are producing decent enough minors but they are lost to the game after that, and those that make U-21 have falling back in grade and class. Beaten by West Meath this year, hammered by Wexford last year. By Dublin the year before. We are a joke at U-21 level. Our poor management of players at this level means that Cody has too much to do to bring the up to senior standard which takes years. Tipp had a number of young players on yesterday who slotted in easily to senior as have Waterford, yet we make excuses for ours.

I've said it before numerous times here. Cody needs to pick his best next best 20 players (outside of yesterday's starting 15, but including Blanchfield and Kelly) and seriously push them from November of this year. Play them in the league and Walsh cup. They need to toughen up to intercounty grade hurling and we can't wait until they are 26. Tipp have managed this as have Waterford. So what if we get relegated, we need to hot house our upcoming talent. Then join them to the remaining starting 13 from last Sunday come the league relegation play off next April. We need to find new players badly - we need new options for 3;4;5;6;9;10:13;14.
I'd like to know who's out there from the various clubs that could be brought in? Across the three grades.

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Need to freshen things up during the next league campaign, one mistake Brian Cody made this year was not bringing enough lads through during the league other than James Maher and Lennon which I was surprised about and reckoned at the time the lack of squad depth may come back to haunt us later in the year. Need at least 4 or 5 next year as we may have one or two more retirements

Id be interested on opinions on who those 4 or 5 should be.

Conor Doheny, Jason Cleere, Evan Cody and Tommy Walsh are defenders that seem to be highly rated by underage management but have had their problems at times, Luke Scanlon is a good talent at midfield, then in the forwards Sean Morrisey, John Walsh and Alan Murphy look promising. Next year is likely a year too early for Richie Leahy. Anybody else who people would like to see get a run.

Dionysis wrote: »

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

A key contributor to KKs problems are well documented on these websites numerous times, but the main one is the poor performance of our U-21 system. The minors are producing decent enough minors but they are lost to the game after that, and those that make U-21 have falling back in grade and class. Beaten by West Meath this year, hammered by Wexford last year. By Dublin the year before. We are a joke at U-21 level. Our poor management of players at this level means that Cody has too much to do to bring the up to senior standard which takes years. Tipp had a number of young players on yesterday who slotted in easily to senior as have Waterford, yet we make excuses for ours.

I've said it before numerous times here. Cody needs to pick his best next best 20 players (outside of yesterday's starting 15, but including Blanchfield and Kelly) and seriously push them from November of this year. Play them in the league and Walsh cup. They need to toughen up to intercounty grade hurling and we can't wait until they are 26. Tipp have managed this as have Waterford. So what if we get relegated, we need to hot house our upcoming talent. Then join them to the remaining starting 13 from last Sunday come the league relegation play off next April. We need to find new players badly - we need new options for 3;4;5;6;9;10:13;14.
I'd like to know who's out there from the various clubs that could be brought in? Across the three grades.

I could be wrong but wasn't this approach taken with the Intermediate team this year

Also there is a bit of a chicken and egg thing with the under 21's in that part of the reason that we are struggling at Under 21 level is that our 19 to 21 year olds have found it very hard to get on the Senior panel and are going up against players who have National League and championship seasons and have gone through full Senior team training regimes

Look with 42 minutes gone we were up by 2.as cody says always its on the day.glway should have beaten tipp.yet now tipp are the greatest thing since sliced bread.they won and deserved to win.but writing us off and tipp foe 3 in a row is crazy.

As for yesterdayy I was disapointed that jackie wasnt brought on for pender.for sure he would have been better on the day.look forward to next year supporting this wonderfull team.

Dionysis wrote: »

I've seen a lot of folks on the various threads question why Cody didn't change things, well to be fair to him, he's known for hawling lads off if they are not performing but yesterday there were two things at play 1) we were taking on water all over the field especially the forwards who were letting the ball be cleared by the Tipp backs far to easy and 2) he looked to the bench and saw what? Not much! Nothing that would perform better or even to the level of that which was already playing.

I the only one that thinks KK actually had a better bench than Tipp yesterday? For sure Jason Forde came on and made an impact, but lads like Lennon, Lester Ryan, Richie Power, JonJo Farrell, Tyrell, etc. have all had good spells for KK. It's simply astounding that Cody didn't try to make some change in defence and trust his subs a bit more.

Cant see how jackie wouls have been worse than pender on sunday.he was the only direct sub for the full back line.also I think joyce has got unfair critisicm on sunday.dont remember bonner maher doing much.

dastardly00 wrote: »

Regarding Jackie, I agree with those who have said that his legs are gone.

The only scenario I could imagine where Jackie would have been brought is if someone in our full-back line was being out-muscled from a Tipp forward.

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Powerhouse wrote: »

Anyone writing anyone else off is foolish but taking solace from being two up after the goal is naïve. The Kilkenny forwards could not score a point from play in the entire second half. If searching for reasons not to be written off I would steer clear of last Sunday.

Galway should have beaten Tipp? Well, if imagining alternative worlds is your thing Waterford should have beaten Kilkenny too. You can't have it both ways.

Kilkenny still scored 2-20 to be fair, a lot from frees but they were genuine frees. Tipp did the same as 2010 and tackled very hard in the half back line, were prepared to give frees away to stop Kilkenny running into space. With James Maher and Ger Aylward to come back, possibly a fitter Eoin Larkin and fingers crossed Michael Fennelly to come back id be confident that we will have forwards capable of winning most matches next year. Its midfield and in the backs which is the worry, where 6 of the 8 Kilkenny players were comfortably beaten by their men on Sunday.

I think the point about Galway beating Tipp was more related to the commentary that Tipp will automatically dominate in the next few years, nobody has said that Kilkenny didnt need a bit of luck to beat Waterford

Powerhouse wrote: »

Yes, but a team almost losing a match they ultimately won does not mean anything. Kilkenny won the 2014 All Ireland title after two replays and a two point semi-final win against Limerick which almost brought them down. With a bounce of the ball the might have lost any of three games. They won the following year's All Ireland nonetheless.

Thats why I used the word automatically. What the Galway match suggests is that on a given day and under the right conditions Tipp can be beaten which is true of almost all teams. There has been some posts here that have stated that Tipp will win 3 in a row which while possible seems to be premature.

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Which they were all day the normally imperious Paul Murphy was getting taken apart for the puck outs in the first half in particular as he was right in front of me. We didn't bring any bite or aggression to our game in defence and you can say what you like about Jackie and his legs but he would have brought a physical presence which we needed he would have brought experience and leadership. This Jackie doesn't have the legs anymore thing was proven to be crap for me anyway when I was talking to one of our players last night he couldn't believe Jackie wasn't starting on Sunday. He said he was going so well over the last month. I'd heard this before the team was named but in such a roundabout way you wouldn't be sure it's true but the player told be last night said every forward that went in on him for the last few weeks got taken apart.

As another lad pointed out to me there wasn't 1 yellow card and to be honest the only incident that deserved one from our players was a challenge from Wally. We've been accused of playing "over to the edge" for years which I never thought we did but we were always very close to it which is where you need to be. We were so far from the edge on Sunday our lads wouldn't have been able to see it with binoculars. I'd say there wasn't a Tipp player in Thurles last night with a bruise. I'm not saying we should be going out to hurt opposition players but Jesus these lads need to get a bit more physical and intense with their opposite number let them know their in for a tough day when that ball comes in.

Anyway rant over.

Throughout this championship I thought Paul Murphy was blanket covering for the the other 2 f/backs. In Thurles, on one occasion, he saw one of the f/backs out of position, and he was like a hen trying to get accross to cover the danger. This prevented Paul from doing his own job in the corner up to his own high standards, and therefore for the first time in a long time, he did not have a good year.

When things started to go wrong in the full back line, the obvious moves were to bring in Lennon at full back and Jackie at left back - that is why the subs are there, to come on when others are not having a good day. All the other teams are abrasive with their tackling in this area, but Kilkenny lack this attribute now and need full backs with the Noel Hickey attitude, and let the opposition forwards know they are not going to waltz though at will.

Also, I have always thought that Joyce is a more natural full back, and could be coached like JJ to take on that task, and Lennon slotted in at centre back. I'm sure Brian Cody (he carries the can after all, and he knows himself, when he gets things right, he gets the plaudits, but if things go badly wrong he too knows the finger is pointed at him) weighted up the way things were going, and waited, and waited, for the game to swing around in Kilkenny's favour, as often happens in matches.

By the 50th minute, Kilkenny were still playing flat and the rally we usually get from the team did not materialize. Damage limitation is useless, you may as well be beaten by 50 as 1 point (2nd place is only for the losers) and you must go for broke then and throw on the subs with instructions to go in hard (with intensity as Tipp did thoroughout all of the game). We knew Tipp were going to bring intensity to the game, as that was their mantra all week to the media.

Liam Blanchfield, tried thoughout the game (he set up the goal for Kevin Kelly) even though he was obviously targeted by the Tipp backs, and TJ and Richie were bottled up or fouled before they could set up other players or make a move themselves. Blanchfield should probably have been inter-switched with Colin Fennelly during the game, as Tipp had closed down the space in front of their full back thus preventing the acres of space Colin had enjoyed the last day against Waterford. Blanchfield is good in the air, and with Colin running off his shoulder would make up a lethal duo.

Kevin Kelly is an out and out finisher, and more work needs to be done to get him free of his marker as a tight game does not suit him. With a bit of luck he could have got 2 goals instead of the 1 gift he got. He can only get better with experience, but he must bring more aggression to his game as do most of the forwards - defense begins begins with the forwards - no easy ball cleared - no time to look up to pick their spot.

However, Kilkenny of all teams know, that if they drop their intensity levels in these crucial matches, the team drifts back into a flat mode, and it is very hard to up it again. They failed in this on Sunday, but there can be no doubt the hunger and appetite will be back in no time. Tipperary were the hungrier and wanted it more, as you would expect from an excellent team which was just off the top over the past 5 years.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Speaking of the league, does anyone think the defeat to Clare was already signposting where our problems were?

Tbiggertheycome, regarding Jackie, you might right, but I can only go on what I saw this year, and anytime I saw him play, he was a yard off the pace. Now maybe that changed during the summer and he wasn't getting a look in, but I've heard many the story of the lad who is going great in training.

I think it was quite a similar loss, for years the idea was that to beat Kilkenny that you had to get the ball and run at the backs, Clare and Tipperary did the opposite and went very direct into the full forward line. Also Clare won almost every breaking ball or ball that went to ground and looked a far more hungry team. For me Lennon should have stayed in the team because the Kilkenny back line struggled under the high ball all year which is unusual for a Kilkenny team.