How do Pro Life campaigners want women who have abortions punished?

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:26PM

eviltwin wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

Unless she's pregnant because of rape or abuse, unless the child is dead or definitely dying, or unless the mother is dying then why not have a punishment for abortion

What kind of punishment would be appropriate in your opinion?

I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence.

Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:28PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

Unless she's pregnant because of rape or abuse, unless the child is dead or definitely dying, or unless the mother is dying then why not have a punishment for abortion

1. What kind of punishment? Life sentence or death?

2. Are you going to pay for the vast prisons plus the wardens police and soldiers needed to detain thousands and thousands of women and their friends and family who has helped them murder their babies?

3. Don't you think it would be a better idea to let women make their choice and butt out?

Don't be dramatic no one wants to kill anyone.

It's all good for them to be free to choose but it's not only themselves that's involved here it's not a bad tooth they are having removed.

eviltwin · 05-09-2016 10:29PM

PucaMama wrote: »

I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence.

Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.

So if a woman takes pills herself or a friend helps her you think they should go to prison?

Widdershins · 05-09-2016 10:30PM

PucaMama wrote: »

In your opinion. Mine is only an opinion too. In reality do I think they would be punished. Not a chance.

Mine, and the UN Human Rights Committee’s.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:30PM

eviltwin wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence.

Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.

So if a woman takes pills herself or a friend helps her you think they should go to prison?

Those pills are illegal. Like I could get in trouble like that for importing medications. It's not that difficult to understand.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:32PM

Widdershins wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

In your opinion. Mine is only an opinion too. In reality do I think they would be punished. Not a chance.

Mine, and the UN Human Rights Committee s.

It's still an opinion and not everyone's

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 10:41PM

PucaMama wrote: »

I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence.

Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.

If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it.

Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby?

Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal?

Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts.
We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done.

If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year.

We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 10:45PM

PucaMama wrote: »

Don't be dramatic no one wants to kill anyone.

It's all good for them to be free to choose but it's not only themselves that's involved here it's not a bad tooth they are having removed.

You wouldn't execute them so you think they should be put in vast prisons then? Thousands have abortions every year so over decades that works out as a vast prison population decade upon decade.

Are you sure you have thought this true?

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 10:48PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think that they do.

I think they want the woman just not to have the abortion in the first place

Hence no need for punishment.

Simples

How do you deter abortions without making it illegal and throw people in jail?

No punishment? Why would people obey the law then??????

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 05-09-2016 10:48PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

You wouldn't execute them so you think they should be put in vast prisons then? Thousands have abortions every year so over decades that works out as a vast prison population decade upon decade.

Are you sure you have thought this true?

Hasn't she clearly said she doesn't? Believe me I see the point you're making and its merit, but this is getting pretty similar to the people who just keep going 'pregnancy is magic and babies are fun and you want to kill the babies and the jews and the slaves'

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:49PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence.

Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.

If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it.

Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby?

Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal?

Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts.
We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done.

If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year.

We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!

Where do you draw the line with abortion

Decent Skin · 05-09-2016 10:53PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it.

Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby?

Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal?

Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts.
We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done.

If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year.

We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!

I'd rein it in a bit if I wanted to get a hearing - "accessory to murder" and "murder" are 2 different things, with completely different sentences. Only the murderer would get life (and maybe whoever contracted the "hit man") but you're exaggerating the scenario to the point that any reasonable person would lose whatever point you might have in there that's worthy of discussion.

Just an opinion mind. I tend to lose respect for an argument when it goes OTT.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 10:53PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think that they do.

I think they want the woman just not to have the abortion in the first place

Hence no need for punishment.

Simples

How do you deter abortions without making it illegal and throw people in jail?

No punishment? Why would people obey the law then??????

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 10:55PM

PucaMama wrote: »

Where do you draw the line with abortion

If a woman wants an abortion at any time or whatever reason that's her business.

eviltwin · 05-09-2016 10:56PM

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

Do you really think your idea of punishment by jail is going to encourage anyone or just makes things worse ?

martian1980 · 05-09-2016 10:57PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it.

Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby?

Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal?

Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts.
We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done.

If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year.

We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!

Fantastic. On post 442 we get to the shrill point of this piece of hyperbole. This hypothesis is entirely rubbish however - experience tells us that this would be more akin to infanticide where the courts almost never impose a custodial sentence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act

Another attempt to paint people with reservations about abortion as nutters fails.

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 10:58PM

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

If she doesn't want the baby and tells you to stick your support what then? Thousands of women are doing that every year. You want to force them to give birth? That is the implication of your view.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 11:00PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

If she doesn't want the baby and tells you to stick your support what then? Thousands of women are doing that every year. You want to force them to give birth? That is the implication of your view.

If someone doesn't want support for their mental health issues they can be treated for their own good. These women are in crisis and should be shown there's more than abortion out there.

Donald Trump · 05-09-2016 11:00PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

How do you deter abortions without making it illegal and throw people in jail?

No punishment? Why would people obey the law then??????

Well obviously there has to be some deterrent. Are we talking about deterrents now as your original post seemed to be coming at it from a "punishment" angle.

Having to have a deterrent doesn't mean that people want to see other people getting a particular punishment.

As for any crime (crime being used in the sense of something that is against the law...whether you think it should be or not), the punishment should be linked to both fairness related to the actual badness of the crime, with maybe some allowance for mitigating circumstances, and also it's effectiveness as a deterrent.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 11:01PM

eviltwin wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

Do you really think your idea of punishment by jail is going to encourage anyone or just makes things worse ?

Again. I havnt said send the women to jail.

eviltwin · 05-09-2016 11:01PM

PucaMama wrote: »

If someone doesn't want support for their mental health issues they can be treated for their own good. These women are in crisis and should be shown there's more than abortion out there.

How insulting. Women who have abortions don't have mental health issues.

Decent Skin · 05-09-2016 11:01PM

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

Not completely true. The state fills-in but is hopelessly inadequate in this area re ensuring that the father supports the child and mother; the state shouldn't have to, but should merely provide whatever support is required to ensure the father mans up.

It's not all one-sided either (although your sway towards single mothers was understandable based on your own experience) as some mothers deny the fathers ANY rights and there is feck-all a father can do, with the default position being the mother's rights ahead of the father's.

That's fine during pregnancy (as I said before, her body) but between the disparity between one wanting and one not wanting and the treatment afterwards, it's hard to believe we're so far into the concept of family and yet so sh1te at looking after the rights of the living.

rjpf1980 · 05-09-2016 11:03PM

martian1980 wrote: »

Fantastic. On post 442 we get to the shrill point of this piece of hyperbole. This hypothesis is entirely rubbish however - experience tells us that this would be more akin to infanticide where the courts almost never impose a custodial sentence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act

Another attempt to paint people with reservations about abortion as nutters fails.

Pro lifers call abortion murder. They say it constantly. They make constant comparisons between abortions and Nazi genocide.
The most extreme of these maniacs advocate shooting abortion doctors.
Clearly they want to throw anyone who has an abortion in prison.
They want to force their ultra conservative views on society.

Decent Skin · 05-09-2016 11:06PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

Pro lifers call abortion murder. They say it constantly. They make constant comparisons between abortions and Nazi genocide.
The most extreme of these maniacs advocate shooting abortion doctors.
Clearly they want to throw anyone who has an abortion in prison.

Depends on which ones you listen to. I've found common ground with 2 here, and had to put one on ignore. So as Meatloaf would say, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

If people talked instead of assuming the worst, misrepresenting or defaulting to shouting each other down we'd all be far better off.

thee glitz · 05-09-2016 11:07PM

The Specialist wrote: »

And in the case where a woman is raped, is she also lucky for this blessing?

Possibly not feeling so blessed in this relatively rare circumstance. Is the case of rape a good argument to condone abortion on demand?

Widdershins wrote: »

For you. In YOUR view. That's not a universal truth, it's your opinion.

It's not far out thinking.

rjpf1980 wrote: »

If the woman refuses to do so should she be strapped to a gurney until she gives birth?

No

If she tried to procure an abortion before being detained would she be tried for attempted murder?

Maybe ye.

In jurisdictions with the death penalty do you think women who have abortions should get the same punishment as other killers?

I don't believe in the death penalty.
Do you think innocent babies deserve the death penalty for being such a big inconvenience?

In short have you thought through the full implications of your beliefs on others?

I've thought about it quite a bit.

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 11:07PM

Decent Skin wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those?

Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers

Not completely true. The state fills-in but is hopelessly inadequate in this area re ensuring that the father supports the child and mother; the state shouldn't have to, but should merely provide whatever support is required to ensure the father mans up.

It's not all one-sided either (although your sway towards single mothers was understandable based on your own experience) as some mothers deny the fathers ANY rights and there is feck-all a father can do, with the default position being the mother's rights ahead of the father's.

That's fine during pregnancy (as I said before, her body) but between the disparity between one wanting and one not wanting and the treatment afterwards, it's hard to believe we're so far into the concept of family and yet so sh1te at looking after the rights of the living.

I'm not 100 percent on the rights of fathers so I won't wade in on that one much. There could be a lot more done in that area in making fathers support children not only financially but having and getting access as a parent

Widdershins · 05-09-2016 11:08PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well obviously there has to be some deterrent. Are we talking about deterrents now as your original post seemed to be coming at it from a "punishment" angle.

Having to have a deterrent doesn't mean that people want to see other people getting a particular punishment.

As for any crime (crime being used in the sense of something that is against the law...whether you think it should be or not), the punishment should be linked to both fairness related to the actual badness of the crime, with maybe some allowance for mitigating circumstances, and also it's effectiveness as a deterrent.[/QUOT

You don't think inducing a miscarriage or undergoing surgery is unpleasant enough that women still need a deterrent? You can't deter someone from this decision, it's a form of coersion and totally immoral.

Donald Trump · 05-09-2016 11:10PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well obviously there has to be some deterrent. Are we talking about deterrents now as your original post seemed to be coming at it from a "punishment" angle.

Having to have a deterrent doesn't mean that people want to see other people getting a particular punishment.

As for any crime (crime being used in the sense of something that is against the law...whether you think it should be or not), the punishment should be linked to both fairness related to the actual badness of the crime, with maybe some allowance for mitigating circumstances, and also it's effectiveness as a deterrent.[/QUOT

You don't think inducing a miscarriage or undergoing surgery is unpleasant enough that women still need a deterrent? You can't deter someone from this decision, it's a form of coersion and totally immoral.

Well you're justifying my earlier point then that so called pro-lifers aren't necessarily calling for punishments!

PucaMama · 05-09-2016 11:10PM

eviltwin wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

If someone doesn't want support for their mental health issues they can be treated for their own good. These women are in crisis and should be shown there's more than abortion out there.

How insulting. Women who have abortions don't have mental health issues.

Did I say they did or did I compare it to care given when people say they don't want it?

Decent Skin · 05-09-2016 11:11PM

PucaMama wrote: »

I'm not 100 percent on the rights of fathers so I won't wade in on that one much. There could be a lot more done in that area in making fathers support children not only financially but having and getting access as a parent

There could and should. But therein lies an issue related to the topic too; what if the man doesn't want to be a father ? Is it then a choice by the mother that she should get no support, or should she be able to "make them support a child they never wanted" ?

The whole thing is a mess.

If nature had any ethics then procreation would only be possible deliberately; "both have to flick a switch each before having sex" or something.

How do Pro Life campaigners want women who have abortions punished?

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