eviltwin wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » Unless she's pregnant because of rape or abuse, unless the child is dead or definitely dying, or unless the mother is dying then why not have a punishment for abortion What kind of punishment would be appropriate in your opinion?
PucaMama wrote: » Unless she's pregnant because of rape or abuse, unless the child is dead or definitely dying, or unless the mother is dying then why not have a punishment for abortion
rjpf1980 wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » Unless she's pregnant because of rape or abuse, unless the child is dead or definitely dying, or unless the mother is dying then why not have a punishment for abortion 1. What kind of punishment? Life sentence or death? 2. Are you going to pay for the vast prisons plus the wardens police and soldiers needed to detain thousands and thousands of women and their friends and family who has helped them murder their babies? 3. Don't you think it would be a better idea to let women make their choice and butt out?
PucaMama wrote: » I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence. Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1.
PucaMama wrote: » In your opinion. Mine is only an opinion too. In reality do I think they would be punished. Not a chance.
eviltwin wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence. Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1. So if a woman takes pills herself or a friend helps her you think they should go to prison?
Widdershins wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » In your opinion. Mine is only an opinion too. In reality do I think they would be punished. Not a chance. Mine, and the UN Human Rights Committee s.
PucaMama wrote: » Don't be dramatic no one wants to kill anyone. It's all good for them to be free to choose but it's not only themselves that's involved here it's not a bad tooth they are having removed.
Donald Trump wrote: » I don't think that they do. I think they want the woman just not to have the abortion in the first place Hence no need for punishment. Simples
rjpf1980 wrote: » You wouldn't execute them so you think they should be put in vast prisons then? Thousands have abortions every year so over decades that works out as a vast prison population decade upon decade. Are you sure you have thought this true?
rjpf1980 wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » I'd punish the person who performed it, if they done it here, with a sentence. Maybe some kind of course of therapy groups aimed towards preventing repeat abortions for women who have more than 1. If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it. Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby? Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal? Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts. We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done. If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year. We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!
rjpf1980 wrote: » If abortion us murder and illegal then not just the doctor but all the abortion clinic staff including the receptionists would be punished with life sentences or execution in jurisdictions that allow it. Why wouldn't the woman who wanted an abortion not be as guilty as the "executioner" of the baby? Wouldn't that be the logical follow-on from making it illegal? Absolutely baths*t of course but that's where things would go if abortion was murder before the law courts. We don't have theses cases EVER because Irish women flee to England to get it done. If the right to travel for an abortion or information on abortion had been removed 25 years ago we would be throwing women in the slammer by the thousands every year. We would not be talking about lunatic hypotheticals. It would be REALITY!
rjpf1980 wrote: » Donald Trump wrote: » I don't think that they do. I think they want the woman just not to have the abortion in the first place Hence no need for punishment. Simples How do you deter abortions without making it illegal and throw people in jail? No punishment? Why would people obey the law then??????
PucaMama wrote: » Where do you draw the line with abortion
PucaMama wrote: » By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those? Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers
rjpf1980 wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those? Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers If she doesn't want the baby and tells you to stick your support what then? Thousands of women are doing that every year. You want to force them to give birth? That is the implication of your view.
rjpf1980 wrote: » How do you deter abortions without making it illegal and throw people in jail? No punishment? Why would people obey the law then??????
eviltwin wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those? Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers Do you really think your idea of punishment by jail is going to encourage anyone or just makes things worse ?
PucaMama wrote: » If someone doesn't want support for their mental health issues they can be treated for their own good. These women are in crisis and should be shown there's more than abortion out there.
martian1980 wrote: » Fantastic. On post 442 we get to the shrill point of this piece of hyperbole. This hypothesis is entirely rubbish however - experience tells us that this would be more akin to infanticide where the courts almost never impose a custodial sentence.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act Another attempt to paint people with reservations about abortion as nutters fails.
rjpf1980 wrote: » Pro lifers call abortion murder. They say it constantly. They make constant comparisons between abortions and Nazi genocide. The most extreme of these maniacs advocate shooting abortion doctors. Clearly they want to throw anyone who has an abortion in prison.
The Specialist wrote: » And in the case where a woman is raped, is she also lucky for this blessing?
Widdershins wrote: » For you. In YOUR view. That's not a universal truth, it's your opinion.
rjpf1980 wrote: » If the woman refuses to do so should she be strapped to a gurney until she gives birth?
If she tried to procure an abortion before being detained would she be tried for attempted murder?
In jurisdictions with the death penalty do you think women who have abortions should get the same punishment as other killers?
In short have you thought through the full implications of your beliefs on others?
Decent Skin wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » By looking into the most common reasons they have the abortions and trying to tackle those? Want an abortion because you will be a single mother? No single mother in Ireland in 2016 is without support so make that support obvious and accessible and try and tackle the prejudice against single mothers Not completely true. The state fills-in but is hopelessly inadequate in this area re ensuring that the father supports the child and mother; the state shouldn't have to, but should merely provide whatever support is required to ensure the father mans up. It's not all one-sided either (although your sway towards single mothers was understandable based on your own experience) as some mothers deny the fathers ANY rights and there is feck-all a father can do, with the default position being the mother's rights ahead of the father's. That's fine during pregnancy (as I said before, her body) but between the disparity between one wanting and one not wanting and the treatment afterwards, it's hard to believe we're so far into the concept of family and yet so sh1te at looking after the rights of the living.
Donald Trump wrote: » Well obviously there has to be some deterrent. Are we talking about deterrents now as your original post seemed to be coming at it from a "punishment" angle. Having to have a deterrent doesn't mean that people want to see other people getting a particular punishment. As for any crime (crime being used in the sense of something that is against the law...whether you think it should be or not), the punishment should be linked to both fairness related to the actual badness of the crime, with maybe some allowance for mitigating circumstances, and also it's effectiveness as a deterrent.[/QUOT You don't think inducing a miscarriage or undergoing surgery is unpleasant enough that women still need a deterrent? You can't deter someone from this decision, it's a form of coersion and totally immoral.
Widdershins wrote: » Donald Trump wrote: » Well obviously there has to be some deterrent. Are we talking about deterrents now as your original post seemed to be coming at it from a "punishment" angle. Having to have a deterrent doesn't mean that people want to see other people getting a particular punishment. As for any crime (crime being used in the sense of something that is against the law...whether you think it should be or not), the punishment should be linked to both fairness related to the actual badness of the crime, with maybe some allowance for mitigating circumstances, and also it's effectiveness as a deterrent.[/QUOT You don't think inducing a miscarriage or undergoing surgery is unpleasant enough that women still need a deterrent? You can't deter someone from this decision, it's a form of coersion and totally immoral. Well you're justifying my earlier point then that so called pro-lifers aren't necessarily calling for punishments!
eviltwin wrote: » PucaMama wrote: » If someone doesn't want support for their mental health issues they can be treated for their own good. These women are in crisis and should be shown there's more than abortion out there. How insulting. Women who have abortions don't have mental health issues.
PucaMama wrote: » I'm not 100 percent on the rights of fathers so I won't wade in on that one much. There could be a lot more done in that area in making fathers support children not only financially but having and getting access as a parent
