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Off Topic Thread 3.0

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  • #1052
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    This is a pretty good read on Hickey.
    http://www.independent.ie/life/pat-hickey-the-teflon-man-of-sport-34958282.html


  • #1053
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I have to say I struggle to give a damn about the Olympics. If there's a more crooked international event in world sport I'm not aware of it. Between the doping and the corruption the whole thing just seems a total shambles to me.

    Depends on the sport for me molloy. The likes of weightlifting etc, just eastern bloc countries on roids, no interest at all. I've never really liked boxing, either.

    On the other hand, sports like hockey, beach volleyball (and not just the women's...), the men's pole jump final etc, have been good viewing.

    If the sport isn't prone to drug use for success or dodgy umpiring, it's generally ok.

    Suppose as well it depends on how each country is going. Ireland not going great, if you're British this is a great 2 weeks of sport, total moral booster after Brexit.


  • #1054
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Suppose as well it depends on how each country is going. Ireland not going great, if you're British this is a great 2 weeks of sport, total moral booster after Brexit.

    I don't know about that. Mo Farrah has a lot of question marks over him, cycling in general has questions hanging over it. GB have done well in some new sports though, their swimming team have had their most successful games, I think, and their gymnastics teams have done fantastically.


  • #1055
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I don't know about that. Mo Farrah has a lot of question marks over him, cycling in general has questions hanging over it. GB have done well in some new sports though, their swimming team have had their most successful games, I think, and their gymnastics teams have done fantastically.

    AFAIK there is only insinuation with Mo Farah, by association. Nothing concrete at all.

    As for cycling the velodrome viewing has been fairly enthralling for me, the ridiculous keirin excepted. Sure there was the whole period round Armstrong, but in recent times cycling, especially track cycling, seems clean.

    The most boring sport is judo that I've watched. Mind-numbing.


  • #1056
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,014 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Suppose as well it depends on how each country is going. Ireland not going great, if you're British this is a great 2 weeks of sport, total moral booster after Brexit.

    I don't know about that. Mo Farrah has a lot of question marks over him, cycling in general has questions hanging over it. GB have done well in some new sports though, their swimming team have had their most successful games, I think, and their gymnastics teams have done fantastically.

    What question marks are there over the cyclists?


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  • #1057
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    AFAIK there is only insinuation with Mo Farah, by association. Nothing concrete at all.

    Farrah has worked with 3 coaches who have serious links to doping. He denied knowing Jama Adan beyond Adan once holding a stop watch at his training as a favour. This despite the fact there are multiple photos of Farrah hanging out with Adan and his family over a period of time. British Athletics said they have not been working with Adan in any capacity in 2016. The one photo that Farrah has an explanation for is from 2016, which implies he was working with Adan off his own back. Then there's the accusations about the Oregon Project and then there's the two missed doping tests from just before the 2012 Olympics, where he blamed his doorbell not working properly.

    There's no solid proof he's done anything wrong but there's a lot of questions he has no answers for.


  • #1058
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,014 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I don't know about that. Mo Farrah has a lot of question marks over him, cycling in general has questions hanging over it. GB have done well in some new sports though, their swimming team have had their most successful games, I think, and their gymnastics teams have done fantastically.

    AFAIK there is only insinuation with Mo Farah, by association. Nothing concrete at all.

    As for cycling the velodrome viewing has been fairly enthralling for me, the ridiculous keirin excepted. Sure there was the whole period round Armstrong, but in recent times cycling, especially track cycling, seems clean.

    The most boring sport is judo that I've watched. Mind-numbing.

    Agree, the track cycling has been brilliant. It has probably been the saviour of the games for me. The Atlhletics and Swimming were on too late unfortunately to really enjoy.


  • #1059
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    bilston wrote: »
    What question marks are there over the cyclists?

    Cycling in general has a bad reputation. Lizzie Armistead missed 3 tests with questionable explanations. Maybe the track cycling doesn't have the same reputation.


  • #1060
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    bilston wrote: »
    Agree, the track cycling has been brilliant. It has probably been the saviour of the games for me. The Atlhletics and Swimming were on too late unfortunately to really enjoy.

    The 6-stage event was just great especially the race where someone is eliminated after each lap.

    I'm personally hoping the women's hockey team take down the Brits tonight and secure at least silver.

    The men totally choked, leading 2-0 with 4 minutes to play vs Germany, and losing 2-3, with 2 goals in the last 48 seconds of the match.

    There's also a Kiwi in the women's pole vault final, I've always liked that event.

    I've watched no swimming, I don't mind it, but not enough to stay up to 3am...I reserve that sort of thing for rugby...


  • #1061
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    "Everybody's on steroids" - Nathan Diaz Esq, 2016


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  • #1062
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Cycling in general has a bad reputation. Lizzie Armistead missed 3 tests with questionable explanations. Maybe the track cycling doesn't have the same reputation.

    The worst is athletics. I've seen at least 2 athletes competing, Gatlin and I forget the other, who have already been banned twice. Personally, I would ban for life after the first failed test, but if they must give a 2nd chance, OK. But failing twice is just taking the piss.

    As for Buer (or IBF, I forget which), mentioning the dodgy testing records in east africa, I would have zero tolerance there too: bad testing, country banned en masse.


  • #1063
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,014 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    bilston wrote: »
    What question marks are there over the cyclists?

    Cycling in general has a bad reputation. Lizzie Armistead missed 3 tests with questionable explanations. Maybe the track cycling doesn't have the same reputation.

    Agree the Lizzie Armistead thing was dubious.

    I haven't heard any doubts around the Track Cycling other than some suggestions that the British bikes give them an advantage. Maybe they do, but the bikes are part and parcel of it. It's like saying Leinster's backs gave them advantage back in the days of BOD and co.


  • #1064
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    As for Buer (or IBF, I forget which), mentioning the dodgy testing records in east africa, I would have zero tolerance there too: bad testing, country banned en masse.

    But then do you ban everyone who trains in dodgy countries? Because you're saying goodbye to your stars like Farah if you do that.

    I personally would, and I would require all coaches and medical staff to be licensed and ban anyone who trains with unlicensed staff. Then if someone on your training staff is found to be breaking regulations you get held out of competition without a conviction.


  • #1065
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,014 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Cycling in general has a bad reputation. Lizzie Armistead missed 3 tests with questionable explanations. Maybe the track cycling doesn't have the same reputation.

    The worst is athletics. I've seen at least 2 athletes competing, Gatlin and I forget the other, who have already been banned twice. Personally, I would ban for life after the first failed test, but if they must give a 2nd chance, OK. But failing twice is just taking the piss.

    As for Buer (or IBF, I forget which), mentioning the dodgy testing records in east africa, I would have zero tolerance there too: bad testing, country banned en masse.

    Maybe the solution is to just let the athletics take what they want. It's their bodies at the end of the day. Their problem if they destroy their bodies doing it.


  • #1066
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,014 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Cycling in general has a bad reputation. Lizzie Armistead missed 3 tests with questionable explanations. Maybe the track cycling doesn't have the same reputation.

    The worst is athletics. I've seen at least 2 athletes competing, Gatlin and I forget the other, who have already been banned twice. Personally, I would ban for life after the first failed test, but if they must give a 2nd chance, OK. But failing twice is just taking the piss.

    As for Buer (or IBF, I forget which), mentioning the dodgy testing records in east africa, I would have zero tolerance there too: bad testing, country banned en masse.

    Maybe the solution is to just let the athletics take what they want. It's their bodies at the end of the day. Their problem if they destroy their bodies doing it.


  • #1067
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    bilston wrote: »
    Maybe the solution is to just let the athletics take what they want. It's their bodies at the end of the day. Their problem if they destroy their bodies doing it.

    There's a couple of problems with that though. It means people who don't want to put their health at risk by taking unregulated medications are basically incapable of competing, and it also means that you'll have a race to the bottom of athletes basically sacrificing their health in order to win medals.


  • #1068
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    The worst is athletics. I've seen at least 2 athletes competing, Gatlin and I forget the other, who have already been banned twice. Personally, I would ban for life after the first failed test, but if they must give a 2nd chance, OK. But failing twice is just taking the piss.

    Gatlin's first failed test was for medication he was taking for his ADHD. The second one was testosterone though. Gatlin's an easy scapegoat though, there's plenty of athletes competing who are doping and seem to be able to get away with it. The public opinion seems to be that failing a test automatically makes you a cheat and also that failing a test is almost a worse crime than doping itself.


  • #1069
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    bilston wrote: »
    Agree the Lizzie Armistead thing was dubious.

    I haven't heard any doubts around the Track Cycling other than some suggestions that the British bikes give them an advantage. Maybe they do, but the bikes are part and parcel of it. It's like saying Leinster's backs gave them advantage back in the days of BOD and co.

    I personally think they should you the French judicial approach: guilty until
    proven innocent. Missing tests = guilty. They should change the emphasise to the athletes proving themselves innocent rather than the labs having to find proof. The banking of samples for 12 years is proving a good success with improvements in technology catching cheats down the line.


  • #1070
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Gatlin's first failed test was for medication he was taking for his ADHD. The second one was testosterone though. Gatlin's an easy scapegoat though, there's plenty of athletes competing who are doping and seem to be able to get away with it. The public opinion seems to be that failing a test automatically makes you a cheat and also that failing a test is almost a worse crime than doping itself.

    I think the excuses are ridiculous. I don't believe for a moment Gatlin has ADHD. He's an adult not a hyperactive kid.


  • #1071
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    But then do you ban everyone who trains in dodgy countries? Because you're saying goodbye to your stars like Farah if you do that.

    I personally would, and I would require all coaches and medical staff to be licensed and ban anyone who trains with unlicensed staff. Then if someone on your training staff is found to be breaking regulations you get held out of competition without a conviction.

    If you're receiving funding from your national organisation, GB Athletics, for example, you should be answerable to them. If you want to work with people outside the group you should have to have a very good reason and even then have the person you want to work with approved. If you can't meet these things your funding should be cut.

    The people looking after each sport, on a local and governing body basis, should be holding their athletes to higher standards.


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  • #1072
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    I think the excuses are ridiculous. I don't believe for a moment Gatlin has ADHD. He's an adult not a hyperactive kid.

    It's a common excuse used in American sports, and I think he shares coaches with some NFL athletes.

    He certainly tried his hand at making it in the NFL with my beloved Buccaneers but they are all completely solid men with absolutely no questionable morals or off-field issues, perfect role models, and so he didn't fit in.


  • #1073
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    I think the excuses are ridiculous. I don't believe for a moment Gatlin has ADHD. He's an adult not a hyperactive kid.

    I didn't realise ADHD had an age restriction.


  • #1074
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I didn't realise ADHD had an age restriction.

    Regardless of whether or not it's true, he was still taking banned substances and not disclosing them to USADA, only to come out with a reason for taking amphetamines after the fact. If you're taking medication constantly then I simply don't accept anyone could just forget about it, he's as dodgy as anyone in the sport (as if his subsequent conviction didn't prove it).


  • #1075
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I didn't realise ADHD had an age restriction.

    In my mind it's more of a kids disease. I'm not dissing ADHD...but I'm highly dubious Gatlin suffers from it...


  • #1076
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Regardless of whether or not it's true, he was still taking banned substances and not disclosing them to USADA, only to come out with a reason for taking amphetamines after the fact. If you're taking medication constantly then I simply don't accept anyone could just forget about it, he's as dodgy as anyone in the sport (as if his subsequent conviction didn't prove it).

    I'm not arguing he's not, his second failed test was pretty clear cut, I'm just saying that not all failed tests are doping/cheating and not having failed a test does not make you clean.


  • #1077
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    AFAIK there is only insinuation with Mo Farah, by association. Nothing concrete at all.

    There is quite a lot of questions about Farah and many middle distance people don't believe he is clean.

    For one he was good but not spectacular at underage levels and early 20s. He was far from a world beater. People do improve but virtually never from not the best in Europe to winning twice in the one games at world / Olympic level.

    His improvements came when he started training with coaches who are known to have coached athletes caught for doping.

    He's missed not one but two out of competition tests in really suspicious circumstances (was sleeping). This despite the fact that the testers will continually ring and knock your door for 5 - 10 hours as missing a test is considered very serious.

    I hope he is clean for the sake of the sport but if you asked me to bet something I didn't want to lose I'd say he is dirty.


  • #1078
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    I'm not arguing he's not, his second failed test was pretty clear cut, I'm just saying that not all failed tests are doping/cheating and not having failed a test does not make you clean.

    Well actually all failed tests ARE doping when they're performance enhacing drugs. He failed for a performance-enhancing substance, he was just able to come up with an excuse.

    Not having a failed test doesn't make you clean, but noone claims it does. Having a failed test for a performance enhancing substance absolutely does make you dirty.


  • #1079
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    In my mind it's more of a kids disease. I'm not dissing ADHD...but I'm highly dubious Gatlin suffers from it...

    In Medical science's mind 60% of children diagnosed with ADHD in childhood continue to suffer from it as adults. Gatlin was 18 when he failed the first test so barely an adult, even if you want to dismiss the fact adults suffer from it too.


  • #1080
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well actually all failed tests ARE doping when they're performance enhacing drugs. He failed for a performance-enhancing substance, he was just able to come up with an excuse.

    Not having a failed test doesn't make you clean, but noone claims it does. Having a failed test for a performance enhancing substance absolutely does make you dirty.

    Not all failed tests are for PEDs though, is my point. WADA have different lists for different substances. They're all banned but they're not all PEDs.


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  • #1081
    swiwi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Yeah I'm getting a bit bored, sorry TME :(

    Gatlin is a cheat for me, I won't be swayed.


This discussion has been closed.
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