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Off Topic Thread 3.0

  • 25-06-2016 12:48pm
    #1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Zzippy


    All things non-rugby related here.


«134567334

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    The treaties that predates it are the only existing legal frameworks we have to go on. The Swiss may have voted to curtail EU immigration but they have yet to implement laws to do so. That isn't due to happen until next year. And based on the existing treaties it's contrary to their agreements with the EU. AFAIK there has been no deal done to date that will continue to allow them free access to the EU market while also allowing them limit immigration.

    They will pass their laws, they will have provisions to restrict some immigration (and won't be the first to have this provision) and they'll remain part of the market. And Britain will come to the point it needs to negotatiate with the EU and they'll be in a far stronger position to do that than Switzerland are have been while they've done it (throughout discussions regarding Croatia and Turkey).

    Britain won't reduce the amount of immigration though, I'd be shocked if they actually end up doing that unless something completely unexpected happens, they'll just gain the ability to control the source of it, which is what the people obviously want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,231 ✭✭✭✭ Venjur


    maybe the press will spend their time engaging on what happens next. Or at least ask the people to deal with their own promises. Ask Farage how on earth he's going to do anything about immigration, and ask Hannan about the new relationship and it's implications on sovereignty, the budget (NHS) and trade.

    Loughborough university did a short study and 83% of the mainstream media articles in the 4 weeks to the vote were pro leave.

    Journalistic integrity is dead in the UK, it was murdered violently a decade ago and is unlikely to seek accountability from leave. Right now it's firmly at the smug stage and if things don't go well it will be straight back to Europe's fault and probably now Scotland fault.

    Little Britain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,376 ✭✭✭✭ molloyjh


    They will pass their laws, they will have provisions to restrict some immigration (and won't be the first to have this provision) and they'll remain part of the market. And Britain will come to the point it needs to negotatiate with the EU and they'll be in a far stronger position to do that than Switzerland are have been while they've done it (throughout discussions regarding Croatia and Turkey).

    Britain won't reduce the amount of immigration though, I'd be shocked if they actually end up doing that unless something completely unexpected happens, they'll just gain the ability to control the source of it, which is what the people obviously want.

    Oh well ok, if you say so Mystic Meg.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Oh well ok, if you say so Mystic Meg.....

    There's absolutely no way that the EU would come close to allowing Switzerland to leave the single market, not given the people who hold sway in Brussels who are very fond of Switzerland for some very strange reason.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,138 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Zzippy


    Venjur wrote: »
    Loughborough university did a short study and 83% of the mainstream media articles in the 4 weeks to the vote were pro leave.

    Journalistic integrity is dead in the UK, it was murdered violently a decade ago and is unlikely to seek accountability from leave. Right now it's firmly at the smug stage and if things don't go well it will be straight back to Europe's fault and probably now Scotland fault.

    Little Britain.

    They have Rupert Murdoch, we have he who shall not be named. We have as much journalistic integrity in this country... :(


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  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    Venjur wrote: »
    Loughborough university did a short study and 83% of the mainstream media articles in the 4 weeks to the vote were pro leave.

    Journalistic integrity is dead in the UK, it was murdered violently a decade ago and is unlikely to seek accountability from leave. Right now it's firmly at the smug stage and if things don't go well it will be straight back to Europe's fault and probably now Scotland fault.

    Little Britain.

    I certainly wouldn't disagree with that, although I'd still hope the BBC would be capable of remembering who actually said what given they were often the ones asking them!

    I like Dimbleby and Question Time though so I hope his questions are directed a little bit more accurately when he's on next (tomorrow I think)


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,376 ✭✭✭✭ molloyjh


    There's absolutely no way that the EU would come close to allowing Switzerland to leave the single market, not given the people who hold sway in Brussels who are very fond of Switzerland for some very strange reason.

    And what kind of a message would that send, not just to the UK but to every other European country out there? Free trade with the free movement of people is one of the main tenants of the EU. Allow one without the other for anyone and the whole thing will collapse. Especially now that the UK has pulled out. It makes absolutely zero sense to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    And what kind of a message would that send, not just to the UK but to every other European country out there? Free trade with the free movement of people is one of the main tenants of the EU. Allow one without the other for anyone and the whole thing will collapse. Especially now that the UK has pulled out. It makes absolutely zero sense to do it.

    They actually do already allow it for someone, the village of Liechtenstein. Switzerland's mini-me.

    But the EU won't get very far sacrificing free trade to save the free movement of people. If unconditional free movement needs to be forced upon member states of the EEC then it is a doomed concept anyway, it will just take longer to die.

    The fact the concept was omitted from negotations with Turkey entirely says a lot I think. Longer term I think we'll see an alternative offered to member states (perhaps conditions in return for further subsidies) to ensure the integrity of the union.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭ swiwi_


    There's absolutely no way that the EU would come close to allowing Switzerland to leave the single market, not given the people who hold sway in Brussels who are very fond of Switzerland for some very strange reason.

    Why would Switzerland leave the single market? Switzerland is economically much more important to the Euro than Ireland. A lot of freight passes through those tunnels linking Europe with Italy etc, not to mention the banks. Ireland is basically a hub for multinationals to avoid tax, other than that I doubt Ireland brings much GDP to Europe. It's politically important to have Ireland involved but not at all economically.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 irishbucsfan


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Why would Switzerland leave the single market? Switzerland is economically much more important to the Euro than Ireland. A lot of freight passes through those tunnels linking Europe with Italy etc, not to mention the banks. Ireland is basically a hub for multinationals to avoid tax, other than that I doubt Ireland brings much GDP to Europe. It's politically important to have Ireland involved but not at all economically.

    The Scottish might be about to challenge Ireland as an English speaking EU backdoor. I reckon Edinburgh could be the new Dublin in the next decade.

    But as to your main point, yes exactly, there's no way that Switzerland leaves the single market so they'll come to some accomodation with them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 Felix Jones is God


    What a goal by Switzerland!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,063 ✭✭✭✭ wp_rathead


    I can't even do that in FIFA


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭ swiwi_


    With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 Felix Jones is God


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.

    I quite like my name changes, but that fecker has me beaten hands down for the nearest handle ever


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Driving from Donegal to Dublin today and while passing through Northern Ireland I realised that Ulster now exists in the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK, and both in and out of the EU.

    That's a future pub quiz tie breaker.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Anyone UK based that has broadband, Sky and BT Sports? What's the cheapest way to do it? No interest in a landline phone or any movie packages etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 Synode


    I reckon if they ran the referendum again next week, remain would win


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    Synode wrote: »
    I reckon if they ran the referendum again next week, remain would win

    I reckon if they had ran another vote at 11am Friday morning remain would have won.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 Synode


    Agreed. Not sure what the lesson there is though. Democracy shouldn't be left to the people?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,805 Swan Curry


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    With each iteration of the off-topic thread, I give a little thanks to Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience for suggesting the thread. Keep well big man.

    as we speak he's out there somewhere having meltdowns about zebo, may the greatest name in the history of the rugby forum live on in our hearts


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Synode wrote: »
    Agreed. Not sure what the lesson there is though. Democracy shouldn't be left to the people?

    Maybe the actions of the people don't necessarily reflect the will of the people. If the majority of the UK wants to leave the EU, they could hold the referendum 100 times and it wouldn't make a difference. But if an initial wakeup call is needed for the country to actually decide that, on the whole, they don't want to leave, I think it's fair enough to get another chance to say so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Maybe the actions of the people don't necessarily reflect the will of the people. If the majority of the UK wants to leave the EU, they could hold the referendum 100 times and it wouldn't make a difference. But if an initial wakeup call is needed for the country to actually decide that, on the whole, they don't want to leave, I think it's fair enough to get another chance to say so.

    There would be an absolute meltdown and, I'm quite sure, massive legal challenges to any attempt to hold another referendum.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Buer wrote: »
    There would be an absolute meltdown and, I'm quite sure, massive legal challenges to any attempt to hold another referendum.

    Probably, but this petition thing seems to be doing well.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    I don't think this referendum is legally binding though?

    They don't have to activate the article 50 thing, although the EU seem to be implying they want it to happen right now.

    Cameron stepping down puts Boris and Co in a real pickle too. The only questions that will be asked in the Tory leadership campaign now will be will you activate article 50 and when? They then have to be the one to try to negotiate a million things with the EU or be the ones to say it's just not going to work and not actually push the button.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,973 Synode


    The way things are going, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they run the referendum again


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭ DGRulz


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Probably, but this petition thing seems to be doing well.

    While a good idea, it's kind of useless. You or I could sign it right now without being in the UK. Someone said to me earlier that Scotland apparently has something like a veto so they can probably use that as a means to trigger a second Scottish referendum.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Just reading about Cornwall this morning. Receive something like £60 million a year in EU funding, resounding Leave vote from them and the next morning they want reassurance that they'll still get the EU funding. A local politician said they were told by leave campaigners that they'd still get their EU funding even if they left and now they're not so sure.

    Maybe they've never had a referendum in the UK so people aren't aware of how they work but there seems to have been some extremely misguided, at best, ridiculously stupid, at worst, decision making happening across the board.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,191 ✭✭✭ swiwi_


    Don't think this forum should be preachy given Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC. The moral high ground is barely more than a mound.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 23,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭ TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    Don't think this forum should be preachy given Ireland had 2 goes at each of the Lisbon treaties IIRC. The moral high ground is barely more than a mound.

    There was nothing wrong with having a second referendum there.

    It was obvious from the first one that most of us didn't have a clue what we were voting on. People thought their kids were going to be conscripted into an EU army and all sorts of nonsense.

    You can say if people are dumb enough to vote on something without actually finding out hard facts about the issue that they deserve what they get. Or, you could say that they deserve a second chance to make a more informed decision. If that second decision is the same as the first one then so be it.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    If the will of the people is a certain way, you can have 100 referenda, it won't change the outcome. Have 100 referenda on introducing the death penalty, for example, and you'll see it beaten every time.

    BUT, if the will of the people is unreliable, transient and easily manipulated, and if the issue is complex, I have no logical or moral opposition to several referenda being carried out.

    If one study says a drug works you don't just dust your hands and assume it will always work, you carry out follow up confirmation studies to make sure.


This discussion has been closed.
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