The Dole

Markcheese · 14-08-2016 03:33PM

kerryguy78 wrote:

Like I read yesterday it costs the state â‚¬98000 a year to keep one prisoner in max security, they have tv's play stations the finest of food and they are after ruining people's lives with their crimes

And ? They have much more freedom /liberty in swedish jails and much less recidivism...

na1 · 17-08-2016 01:40PM

Speedwell wrote: »

I started off by saying that if the job needs to be done, then it is a proper job with a market rate and should be offered to a job applicant at that rate. If nobody wants the job at the offered rate, then by definition the rate offered is not the market rate.

If you have offered a job to someone at the market rate, they are employed, not unemployed. You can't be unemployed and employed at the same time. If what you mean to propose is for people who receive benefits to be hired for a job and paid only the amount of their benefits, and the amount of benefit is less than the market compensation for the job, then you are engaging in wage theft.

There is no such thing as a "free market" in this country.
The minimal wage & the dole make this country a parasite heaven.
Make the Dole 100k for everyone, and nobody will work again. Does this mean that there are no jobs anymore because noone wants a job?

There are plenty of works (not jobs) to be done in this country, but there is a great shortage of incentive to work (or skills to do the work).
IMO the JB should be left or even increased proportional to the last salary (say 70% of the last salary for 6 month), JA should be abolished, or replaced with public service low-skilled work, with a rate of payment equat to current JA rates

na1 · 17-08-2016 02:13PM

Speedwell wrote: »

Do you have a plan to provide a supply of such low wage/skill jobs sufficient to offer one to each recipient? People with chronic issues that make them unemployable, well, to put it bluntly, make very poor employees. Without services that make them employable, this is a bad plan.

There is PLENTY of work to be done, far exceeding the numbers on the Live Register.
What a chronic issues are you talking about?
TV related obesity? Alcoholism? Drug abuse?

K-9 · 17-08-2016 02:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, I'm in full agreement. I suppose I've become more right winged as I got older because I don't like the leftie idea of giving in to criminals. People or crinimals should fear prison. I know, I already do, and I've never committed any serious crime. (Not really including having a a joint at home)

Prison should be punishment. Not simply holding them for a period of time. Hard labour, a suspension of "most" rights (they've chosen not to accept anyway), and harsh sentencing for violent crimes. And remove this whole insanity plea. It's just abused anyway. And repeat offenders who see the inside of a prison get a scale of increased punishment until they relent or are removed completely from society.

Just my opinion, and I know I'll probably get slated for saying it. If anyone wants to create a new thread, I'll join in. .

You need the carrot and the stick, plus there are loads of deeper issues along with those above. Drugs, education, poor backgrounds etc. Prison alone doesn't solve them.

Sentencing can often be a joke. I often see cases were some guy has 3 or 4 pages of a rap sheet and a judge wants to give him "one last chance". You need to give them programs to minimise the chances of re-offending as much as possible but don't throw away the responsibilities and consequences part.

na1 · 17-08-2016 02:22PM

Joe prim wrote: »

people on the dole, i.e all the forms of welfare available in a modern western state like our own, already have a job. They are consumers, boosting activity in the economy and recycling workers tax money.

that's irrelevant.
Take the money of the Dole recipients and give them back to taxpayers, and the total consumption level will stay the same. Its just a matter of WHO is spending.
The working people who earned the money, or the parasites who have no incentive to work.
You can make it even better for consumption:
The dole recipients have no obligation to spend money locally: they can spend them abroad on holidays, or on smuggled cigarettes etc.
On the opposite: if you give this money to taxpayers you can impose a contract on them to spend this "extra money" locally. I don't think any taxpayer will object.
Again, it is not the matter of supporting local businesses it is just the matter of WHO is spending the money.
I personally think that if the money are spent by those who earn them is more fair.

17-08-2016 02:26PM

K-9 wrote: »

You need the carrot and the stick, plus there are loads of deeper issues along with those above. Drugs, education, poor backgrounds etc. Prison alone doesn't solve them.

You can always find excuses for peoples behvaior. While prison alone doesn't solve them, this is no reason to make prison into a summer camp for them to improve their crinimal "skills". We already have avenues of learning for the poor, for travellers, for the abused, etc. All of these avenues are available for them before they commit crimes.... the thing we are missing is motivation.

IF they fear prison time, then, there will be motivation for them to avail of these other services to provide them with alternatives.

Sentencing can often be a joke. I often see cases were some guy has 3 or 4 pages of a rap sheet and a judge wants to give him "one last chance". You need to give them programs to minimise the chances of re-offending as much as possible but don't throw away the responsibilities and consequences part.

Agreed...and you need to provide them an incentive to reform... which would be the ability to return to mainstream society. As things stand, that option isn't really there. But there still needs to be a definite stick. They've done prison time and easily survived.... what is there to fear?

17-08-2016 02:40PM

na1 wrote: »

I personally think that if the money are spent by those who earn them is more fair.

Not going to happen. If it's not the dole, it will be some other group. Probably theyll just decide the travellers needs more benefits or some other rubbish.

Just get used to the idea that the tax you pay is not yours. It's "everyone's". But individuals are not part of everyone. Society has a greater demand of your tax than you do... and "society" has decided that the weakest members of society should be encouraged to stay weak... rather than seek to improve their opportunities towards self-improvement.

I'd suggest forgetting the word fair... it doesnt apply to anyone except those that are "weak", "abused", or "disadvantaged".

na1 · 17-08-2016 03:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

na1;100707121

society should be encouraged to stay weak... rather than seek to improve their opportunities towards self-improvement.

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" ( ) Margaret Thatcher

17-08-2016 03:07PM

na1 wrote: »

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.

why edit my post? You deleted words....

If you're going to quote me, quote me. Don't alter it to suit yourself.

na1 · 17-08-2016 03:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

I think it is opposite:
The "weakest members of society" is the significant part of the population which has a voting power to resign any politic who will try to change the system.
It'll eventually lead to "parasitocracy" - the new type of the social order, where parasites has the voting majority so can rule the government decisions, while not making contributions towards the budged.

why edit my post? You deleted words....

If you're going to quote me, quote me. Don't alter it to suit yourself.

I left only the part of the post I was answering. Otherwise my answer would be confusing.

starshine1234 · 17-08-2016 03:41PM

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?

There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.

In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

Jayop · 17-08-2016 03:46PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?

There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.

In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

17-08-2016 04:30PM

na1 wrote: »

I left only the part of the post I was answering. Otherwise my answer would be confusing.

You changed the sentence.

i.e. I wrote.. and "society" has decided that the weakest members of society should be encouraged to stay weak

Your quote of me is " society should be encouraged to stay weak."

You changed the meaning and put it as a quotation. Write your own sentences. Don't edit mine. :mad:

na1 · 17-08-2016 04:35PM

Good point, I meant to leave the whole sentence, just missed the begin by mistake.
Without the begin it wouldn't make any sense anyway.

17-08-2016 04:38PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?

What punishment? The expectation that the unemployed capable of working, should be working? You actually see that as a punishment....

There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

Aren't there? You're members of Europe with free movement and certain shared rights.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Withdrawal of benefits is not a punishment.

Why can't our society support everyone?

Where would the money come from? Seriously, I'd love an answer. How do you expect Ireland with a minor economy to do things that major nations are also incapable of doing?

Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?

Who is hating the poor, and in what way? Clarify.

If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.

seriously? Are you really this naive?

In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's a discussion board. Why are you here for?

17-08-2016 04:42PM

Jayop wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

I don't get this attitude. It's like you're stuck in Amber. Change your skills! Modernize your education! Become employable. Jeez. There is no age limit on going to University, and many incentives for mature students, nevermind all the workshops for more practical skillsets.

Jayop · 17-08-2016 04:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get this attitude. It's like you're stuck in Amber. Change your skills! Modernize your education! Become employable. Jeez. There is no age limit on going to University, and many incentives for mature students, nevermind all the workshops for more practical skillsets.

Some people are simply not cut out for 3rd level education. Some people are quite simply not capabale of upskilling to the standard that will be required in the future to earn a meaningful living.

Even if they do, there will still only be x amount of jobs for graduates and if the amount of graduates is greater than x then we'll just have loads of them out of work too. It's quite simply idiotic to look into the future and see anything other than too many people for the jobs available. So unless you propose a cull or some sort of reproduction limit being introduced that problem will not go away.

A living wage is pretty much an inevitability and it will cut out so much waste in the public sector that a few of them will end up needing it too because there won't be jobs for them either.

When healthcare becomes as simple as repairing yourself at home, all the docs and nurses will be out of work, mechanics won't be needed as much because computers and robots will be repairing out cars. All these trades will become irrelevant.

na1 · 17-08-2016 04:53PM

Jayop wrote: »

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's seems to be all about punishing people.

Why do people on this thread seek to punish people?

There aren't enough jobs for everyone.

The constant suggestions that people should be punished for not having a job are getting tedious.

Why can't our society support everyone?
Why can't the people in good jobs just accept that they are lucky to have the good jobs and stop hating poor people?
If the people in the good jobs don't want the good jobs then leave the job and claim the dole. Simple.
If people in good jobs feel hard done by then leave the job. Stop getting upset and bitter and make a positive choice to leave the job and claim the dole.

In summary, stop being judgemental of other people.
Live your own life and leave other people alone instead of constantly berating them.

It's only a matter of time before the fact that there's less jobs than people really dawns on the majority. So many jobs are going to be replaced by automation soon that pretty much anyone low skilled is going to be without work. When that happens though there will still be more than enough money to give everyone a decent standard of life. The living wage thing needs to be properly examined and looked at as a means to stop the attitude of the haves always assuming the have not's are leechers.

Meanwhile there is LOADS of work to be done which requires certain skills.
I.e. cancer/heart decease medical research, which requires billions of euro to invest. But which can really save thousands of lives (the amount of people die in this country every year from cancer and heart related deceases)
So it is a matter of choice,
Give that multi-billion SWO bill to support people who are "low skilled" to support their comfortable life without job,
OR:
give that money to medical research teams which can potentially save anyone from serious illness or death.

What would be your choice?

Jayop · 17-08-2016 04:57PM

na1 wrote: »

Meanwhile there is LOADS of work to be done which requires certain skills.
I.e. cancer/heart decease medical research, which requires billions of euro to invest. But which can really save thousands of lives (the amount of people die in this country every year from cancer and heart related deceases)
So it is a matter of choice,
Give that multi-billion SWO bill to support people who are "low skilled" to support their comfortable life without job,
OR:
give that money to medical research teams which can potentially save anyone from serious illness or death.

What would be your choice?

Well if it's a choice between cancer research to save a few thousand people in Ireland or paying people some money so they can feed their family and we dontt have tens of thousands on the streets or starving to death I'd choose the latter.

People aren't going to go away, as much as they might seem like a parasite to you, so you have a choice, let them starve or pay them a living wage which we as a society can afford.

FFS, if it's a choice between one or the other in all these things then why pick on the poor? Why not take away the arts funding, or sports funding or the state jet and put every cent into cancer research. Oh what an enlightened little state we'd be.

17-08-2016 05:00PM

Jayop wrote: »

Some people are simply not cut out for 3rd level education. Some people are quite simply not capabale of upskilling to the standard that will be required in the future to earn a meaningful living.

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.

Even if they do, there will still only be x amount of jobs for graduates and if the amount of graduates is greater than x then we'll just have loads of them out of work too. It's quite simply idiotic to look into the future and see anything other than too many people for the jobs available. So unless you propose a cull or some sort of reproduction limit being introduced that problem will not go away.

There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

Most people start working in an industry at a low wage, and then as their experience grows, their salary grows. BUT you consider that beneath the poor. To work upwards. Like the rest of us.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.

A living wage is pretty much an inevitability and it will cut out so much waste in the public sector that a few of them will end up needing it too because there won't be jobs for them either.

Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.

When healthcare becomes as simple as repairing yourself at home, all the docs and nurses will be out of work, mechanics won't be needed as much because computers and robots will be repairing out cars. All these trades will become irrelevant.

And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

Mr. teddywinkles · 17-08-2016 05:05PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.

There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.

Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.

And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

And varying levels of intellect has nothing to do with this of course

starshine1234 · 17-08-2016 05:10PM

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

17-08-2016 05:11PM

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

And varying levels of intellect has nothing to do with this of course

huh?

17-08-2016 05:13PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

Like talking to a wall. So, yes, I feel similiar dispair for the future.

Tony EH · 17-08-2016 05:17PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

If this is the quality of dabate I despair for the future.

There aren't enough jobs now, and there won't be enough jobs in the future.

People focussing on minor details are missing the larger picture.

Artificial intelligience has the potential to replace every job.

When there are no jobs left what will the naysayers be saying?

People used to say 'I work to live, not live to work'. Clearly many posters on this thread think life is about working and nothing else. Do posters not have any imagination? Can you not imagine a better society?

What about the Star Trek universe? Nobody has to work. Would that be that desirable or not?

These dole threads are always the same. It always ends up as some bitching session for some people to blow hard about something they know little about and come up with unworkable "ideas" about what to do with "dole scum".

It's always a one size fits all approach too. A blanket "solution" that supposed to apply to hundreds of thousands of people. "They should do this, that or t'other".

And it nearly always comes across as simple bitterness.

Mr. teddywinkles · 17-08-2016 05:17PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

huh?

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

Jayop · 17-08-2016 05:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There are other options. Industry specific qualifications. Workshop level diplomas. Qualifications from other government aid organisations.

And as for being not cut out for university. My bachelor (4 year course) took me 6 years, and I still only scraped a pass. I came back 8 years later for my honors degree and was the top in my class. People change. We grow up. At least, some do.

You just won't even try. Bailing out.. and expecting others to cover your tab.

There is no requirement to stay in Ireland... or *gosh* they could start their own small business. Perhaps a webdesign/hosting company? Wouldn't make a fortune but easily more than the dole payments, and no need for formal education. Just hop on to youtube for a few weeks and get the tutorials. So difficult is life.

Most people start working in an industry at a low wage, and then as their experience grows, their salary grows. BUT you consider that beneath the poor. To work upwards. Like the rest of us.

You call it idiotic to attempt to change for the future. I call it idiotic to refuse to change based on variables that aren't even guaranteed. There is loads of work out there... and there will continue to be loads of work out there... the problem is that it is just too hard to do the work or doesn't pay enough for you. You're surrendering before the fight even begins.

Its a dangerous proposition. Why? Because it creates entitlements. And whats the problem with that? because there are no guarantees in economics or the ability to support those entitlements in the future.

And new professions will be created. It's just that the world is moving away from physical labor to more intellectual areas... Anticipate the market. Use that brain that God gave you for something better than playing COD.

I don't think I'm going to bother going on with you if you're going to make assumptions based on nothing I've ever said. I've been gainfully employed my entire life having only claimed welfare for a few weeks once when the company I worked for went into receivership. I, unlike some others, am capable of thinking about people other than myself.

Jayop · 17-08-2016 05:23PM

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

Some poor fella that left school barely able to read or write but was doing well enough for himself on the buildings or some other manual trade should now open a web hosting company. If he doesn't he's clearly sitting on his hole playing call of duty.

Easy peasy.

starshine1234 · 17-08-2016 05:24PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Like talking to a wall. So, yes, I feel similiar dispair for the future.

Are you arguing that artificial intelligence doesn't have the potential to replace jobs?

Do you advocate that people should work in jobs that have no purpose? Just to keep them happy, or perhaps just to keep you happy?

For example, we could have people moving piles of rocks from place to place. No purpose to it but it would keep the people busy.

Why should we bother forcing people to work in jobs which don't exist?

Can you address the issue please of insufficient jobs in the future and how that fact fits into your plans and worldview?

17-08-2016 05:24PM

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

You maintain that everyone has the mental capacity for the types of work you describe. Pick some random high tech profession and off you go. Sorted

There's a lot of other types of work... and web design was just one option and not particularly difficult to get into. Plenty of other IT related work or internet related work, that can yield an income.

The Dole

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