The Dole

Dohnjoe

starshine1234 wrote: »

Governments need to wake up and start forcing corporations to pay tax. The alternative is the failure of our societies.

Not as simple as that. If governments ramp up tax on corporations, said corps can simply move to other countries - which can mean a loss of jobs, business and investment in the country

Most governments would gladly have major corporations paying zero % tax but there would be a massive outcry

Taxation does need to be fair, but people also need to understand the reality that these large businesses can go elsewhere.. which has a very definite negative impact on our economy

The government appears unwilling to. The government is more interested in providing favours to its friends.
Ordinary people need to take control of politics.

We have quite a functional and progressive system compared to the past and many developing countries in the world

Mr. teddywinkles

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not as simple as that. If governments ramp up tax on corporations, said corps can simply move to other countries - which can mean a loss of jobs, business and investment in the country

Most governments would gladly have major corporations paying zero % tax but there would be a massive outcry

Taxation does need to be fair, but people also need to understand the reality that these large businesses can go elsewhere.. which has a very definite negative impact on our economy



We have quite a functional and progressive system compared to the past and many developing countries in the world

Say from a hypothetical point of view taxes were hiked up across Europe and all these corporations decided to move. If the arse fell out if the European economy and unemployment was rampant who'd buy these corporations services and products. See they need us as much as we need them.

Dohnjoe

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Say from a hypothetical point of view taxes were hiked up across Europe and all these corporations decided to move. If the arse fell out if the European economy and unemployment was rampant who'd buy these corporations services and products. See they need us as much as we need them.

That's a hypothetical conclusion.

Reality is different.

Tony EH

Yours is a hypothetical conclusion too.

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

Yours is a hypothetical conclusion too.

Theorising that all corporations and large companies were to leave Europe due to tax hikes, and that the European economy were to collapse in such a scenario, leaving us unable to afford such goods and services - is such an extreme hypothetical situation, that basing a conclusion on it is largely pointless and a non-argument

Large companies have left Ireland in the past, and it generally has negative effects for our economy

Bass Reeves

It is always very well to advacote that companies pay more tax. However tax competations between countries countries is rampant. IMO sucessive governments( who claim they did not know) and the revenue did a sweetheart deal Apple. There may be other US companies involved. I had this debate with a lads last week my point was that Apple had profits of 200 billion it had not paid tax on that it was waithing to repatriate to the US when favourable tax laws were available.

The nub of the matter is that Apple and other companies were avoiding pay any coporate tax. However small nations ( and even large one) find it hard to take on such coporations when they arrive at a scale that employs thousands of workers in a few locations. Should the Irish government appeal the ruling the answer is yes. If we lose the appeal the MN cannot complain. The worse situtation would be to not appeal and Apple appeal and win an easy victory.

However the issue with Coporate tax is a woreld wide issue and needs to be dealt with at an international level. There need to be regulations with regards to levels of taxation and where they are paid

starshine1234

I've said it before.

Companies need to be publicly shamed for their greed.

Tim Cook comes across as a petulent schoolchild. He's petty, and he's childish, and he blames government for targetting him. He should be publicly ridiculed for his greedy and anti-society stance, and that ridicule should be led by politicians.

Apple should be boycotted.

There, I've said it. Simple.
Apple should be publicly boycotted, and Google too, and Facebook, until they cop on, and until they're willing to support the societies they prey on.


Let Apple take their ball home if they don't like the rules. Then ridicule them for their greed and their childishness.

I am right to say that society will fail if corporations don't have to pay taxes.

Keep on using the phrase; our societies will fail if corporations are unwilling to pay tax.


Let corporations threaten our societies. But make sure we point out that that's what they're doing. They are greedy and childish.


I really wish we had real leadership in our country, instead of weak ass quisling assholes.

Galwayguy35

starshine1234 wrote: »

I've said it before.

Companies need to be publicly shamed for their greed.

Tim Cook comes across as a petulent schoolchild. He's petty, and he's childish, and he blames government for targetting him. He should be publicly ridiculed for his greedy and anti-society stance, and that ridicule should be led by politicians.

Apple should be boycotted.

There, I've said it. Simple.
Apple should be publicly boycotted, and Google too, and Facebook, until they cop on, and until they're willing to support the societies they prey on.


Let Apple take their ball home if they don't like the rules. Then ridicule them for their greed and their childishness.

I am right to say that society will fail if corporations don't have to pay taxes.

Keep on using the phrase; our societies will fail if corporations are unwilling to pay tax.


Let corporations threaten our societies. But make sure we point out that that's what they're doing. They are greedy and childish.


I really wish we had real leadership in our country, instead of weak ass quisling assholes.

Easy for you to say boycott Apple, they're about to build a facility in Athenry which will provide much needed jobs and the American companies employ thousands.

Should they also be boycotted?

Godge

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Say from a hypothetical point of view taxes were hiked up across Europe and all these corporations decided to move. If the arse fell out if the European economy and unemployment was rampant who'd buy these corporations services and products. See they need us as much as we need them.

In that case, the Americans, Chinese and others would benefit from the relocated investment and more of them would be in a better position to buy the goods and services. Europe would become a backwater.

Mr. teddywinkles

Godge wrote: »

In that case, the Americans, Chinese and others would benefit from the relocated investment and more of them would be in a better position to buy the goods and services. Europe would become a backwater.

So Chinese sales of good and services into Europe wouldn't be affected? Absolutely no negative affect whatsoever? That and the realisation that most countries economies are so interconnected globally now compared to years previous. I think the last crash proved this.

Tony EH

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Easy for you to say boycott Apple

Some of us have been boycotting them for years.

:pac:

Godge

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So Chinese sales of good and services into Europe wouldn't be affected? Absolutely no negative affect whatsoever? That and the realisation that most countries economies are so interconnected globally now compared to years previous. I think the last crash proved this.

Cheap Chinese substitutes would probably replace upmarket TVs and gadgets so China might gain.

The world is changing. Europe's place in the world is diminishing.

If you hike up corporation taxes all over Europe, companies would leave, the economies would suffer, living standards dropping by 5-10%. The most affected would be Europe's ordinary citizens - the companies would find markets in the economies that would be growing by 10% as a result.

na1

holly44 wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

Are you a qualified electrician?
I don't have a electrician qualification, but my third level education in applied science gives me enough knowledge to do ANY domestic electrical work.

Book smart, Street Idiot!
Just because you read about its dont mean you could do it! FFS!

I suppose you call electrician whenever you need to change the light bulb?

ressem

starshine1234 wrote: »

Tim Cook comes across as a petulent schoolchild. He's petty, and he's childish, and he blames government for targetting him. He should be publicly ridiculed for his greedy and anti-society stance, and that ridicule should be led by politicians.

The US has some extremely strict rules and punishment on corporate wrongdoing and upward responsibility. That the EU ought to copy/ improve upon, in my opinion.
Therefore there will be both real and feigned outrage at the suggestion of not paying due tax. Tim Cook is feigning outrage. He heard the equivalent at the Senate hearings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx6YINOfjaQ

Apparently the dividends that the big pile of offshore cash generate are paid to the US, with US tax rate. And Cook and the like call for a single digit tax rate for repatriating foreign earnings.

Irish and US Tax revenue allow this. Therefore they will take advantage.
In Irish Revenue, who created and sent the Section 110 legislation for approval by the Dail? Are Revenue transparent enough?
Is there a possibility of corruption or industry capture there?

I am right to say that society will fail if corporations don't have to pay taxes.

No. But a heavier burden will fall on citizens. Ireland used to have the option of imposing import taxes and luxury good taxes, but the ability to import and transport money / services around the EU has reduced this potential source of income.

Should the property of a stateless company enjoy international patent and copyright protection, or any legal protection, though?

Ragnar Lothbrok

Speedwell wrote: »

If the job needs to be done, it is a real job worth a monetary value, and the community needs to pay someone its value (job creation), or they are taking real work out of the hands of real workers who need real jobs. That means that if you are requiring someone on the dole to do that work, you are employing them. If you assign a job to someone regardless of whether they can do the job or want to, that is a bad HR practice. If the job doesn't need to be done, then you don't need to yank someone off the dole to do it.

This is as close to a perfect response to any question I've ever seen on boards. Well done Speedwell

looksee

na1 wrote: »

Are you a qualified electrician?
I don't have a electrician qualification, but my third level education in applied science gives me enough knowledge to do ANY domestic electrical work.

No, I am not. I do have several decades as a householder where some disgracefully dangerous things were done to my house by the kind of amateurs that you identify with. These amateurs were allowed to call themselves electricians but it was impossible to know how much experience or knowledge they had. A plumber caused a significant house fire in my house on one occasion by messing with electrics that he had no right to touch. An amateur bodger previously lived in my current house and we had to do a lot of rewiring and sorting of dangerous sockets and connections.

Nowadays I only employ qualified electricians to do anything more complicated than wiring a plug.

Anyway this is off topic, but I think it is relevant to the extent that it shows how many 'experts' there are when it comes to what is involved in other people's jobs.

Markcheese

But how many jobs around your house and garden are waiting to be done... yeah some of the big ones you'll stretch to getting an expert in ...
But .... what about the small jobs that need doing and you'll probably get round to, eventually... they need doing

Look, if it suits everyone long term,it COULD be a good thing ... (it wouldnt be cheap anyway)

Ragnar Lothbrok

KCross wrote: »

So obviously that person didnt make a lifestyle choice to be on the dole. I'm not tarring everyone on the dole with that brush.

That person you know is interacting with the state and actively looking for a job so I would fully support that person getting the full dole.

My suggestion of sliding scale would need to allow for that somehow. I'm not a government minister with fully fleshed out plans. There are obviously caveats that have to be dealt with.

Im just putting forward something different to the current system. Of course its not perfect, nor is the current system.

One of the major requirements for someone receiving unemployment benefits is that they need to prove that they are actively seeking work. This means they have to show the Social Welfare Local Office a list of the jobs they have applied for. These need to be advertised jobs too, not just a case of sticking in the name of a random company and indicating that a phone call or personal visit was made asking about any jobs going.

Anyone can complete these forms to "prove" that they were actively seeking work, even if that may not really have been the case. So how could anyone, be they government minister or social welfare officer (or even a boards.ie contributor :eek:), determine who is genuinely seeking work and who isn't?

A sliding scale would never work, as deciding who "deserves" which level of benefit would be impossible to implement fairly and non-subjectively.

It's Victorian-era thinking that there is such a thing as the "undeserving poor", although many people on this thread seem to assume that the majority of the long term unemployed would fall into this category.

Godge

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

It's Victorian-era thinking that there is such a thing as the "undeserving poor", although many people on this thread seem to assume that the majority of the long term unemployed would fall into this category.

On the other hand, are you saying that all the poor are deserving and there is nobody playing the system?

Ragnar Lothbrok

Godge wrote: »

On the other hand, are you saying that all the poor are deserving and there is nobody playing the system?

Everyone is deserving of equal treatment, yes.

Lots of people are "playing the system" - I worked in Social Welfare Offices both here and in England - but "playing the system" is a different question to whether or not the long-term unemployed should be penalised by having reduced benefits or forced to do community service or whatever.

Also, don't forget that "playing the system" isn't confined only to benefit recipients - tax dodgers (creative accounting?), corrupt politicians, white collar crime, etc., and I would imagine that they have caused this country far more economic damage than those on benefit ever have.

Tony EH

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Also, don't forget that "playing the system" isn't confined only to benefit recipients - tax dodgers (creative accounting?), corrupt politicians, white collar crime, etc., and I would imagine that they have caused this country far more economic damage than those on benefit ever have.

To some people, the latter is perfectly fine.

na1

How come the person who directly contribute 100-s of thousands euro into economy (even if underpaying tax) is worse than the person who draw from the state 10-s of thousands and never give back a cent?

na1

looksee wrote: »

No, I am not. I do have several decades as a householder where some disgracefully dangerous things were done to my house by the kind of amateurs that you identify with. These amateurs were allowed to call themselves electricians but it was impossible to know how much experience or knowledge they had. A plumber caused a significant house fire in my house on one occasion by messing with electrics that he had no right to touch. An amateur bodger previously lived in my current house and we had to do a lot of rewiring and sorting of dangerous sockets and connections.

Nowadays I only employ qualified electricians to do anything more complicated than wiring a plug.

Anyway this is off topic, but I think it is relevant to the extent that it shows how many 'experts' there are when it comes to what is involved in other people's jobs.

So by the fact, that there are many amateurs who can do serious damage to the house (I'm not arguing with that)
you are saying that getting a proper qualification to do a domestic electrical work takes years to achieve?
That's not true. The main cause of the accidents are neglect and poor knowledge - the first is irrelevant to the years of studying, the second can be sorted by a simple training. That's not a rocket science.
BTW: the third level of education in top Irish colleges is relatively poor from my experience.

kerryguy78

I have been in full employment since I left school, I earn a very good wage but my alarm clock goes off at 4.30/5 am and don't get home until nearly 6pm. A big chunk of my wage goes in to paying people on the dole, I understand people aren't as fortunate as I was but I look around now at the 18-25yr olds on the dole and they are absolutely useless, they wouldn't know work if it slapped them across the face. As the years go by the young people are getting more useless than ever. Most young people opt for computer jobs, where will the future block layers, chippys and manual grafters come from?

Jamsiek

starshine1234 wrote: »

I have already explained.

Taxes on companies must be increased.

If they want access to the Irish market then they must support our society by being willing to pay tax. They must not engage in constant attempts to avoid or evade tax.

Our country is setting a bad example by reducing company tax.

Why select companies to pay no tax?
Why must workers be taxed to the bone if companies are permitted to pay almost no tax?
What will happen if companies succeed in their aim of an international tax rate of <10% or thereabouts?

These low tax policies certainly have the potential to destroy our economy and our society so at the very least it is extremely reckless by our esteemed leaders. Its almost as if our esteemed leaders don't care if our society crumbles.

Enda Kenny seems more interested in getting pats on the head from Merkel and Sarkozy then he is in the welfare of Irish people. In other words, he's a despicable traitor to Ireland.

Universal income for the win, paid for by rich greedy elites.

You keep repeating this over and over again without providing any realistic way to implement it.
Klaz asked you this many times and you still repeat the same nonsense. It's annoying to read.
Even communist countries expect their people to work.

Do you really expect companies to stay in a country where nobody works and they will be taxed higher than other countries?
Can you please explain how you would convince a CEO to locate to Ireland under your ludicrous idea?

4ensic15

The Shannon river was made navigable by having the unemployed build a canal, and artificial island and a lock. The current mass of unemployed should dig a few more canals to eliminate the flooding that occurs on the Shannon.

na1

4ensic15 wrote: »

The Shannon river was made navigable by having the unemployed build a canal, and artificial island and a lock. The current mass of unemployed should dig a few more canals to eliminate the flooding that occurs on the Shannon.

They are too busy working for cash, don't bother them!

na1

It seems that the thread is going in a loop,
one say:
-the people on the dole are scroungers, who are comfortable without work.
and then the other reply:
-how could you? I am (my wife/my best friend) just a month out of work and feels humiliated by the SWO staff!

Well, the both opinions can be true, as soon as they are talking about certain particular person
To get the countrywide picture, one should get the statistical data.

IMO if the person didn't find a job within 2 years(max) - he or she WASN'T LOOKING for a job.
In the countries with less generous welfare system its hard to find the person to be looking for job for 2 years.
So this is the starting point of search.
The CSO doesn't reveal the %of people with 2+ years on the dole, they only have stats for JB vs JA (or at least I haven't find yet)
looking at the % of JA vs JB you can get rough estimate, that the majority of the people are looking for a job for 1+ years (I know that the former self employed on JA can be less than a year on the dole, but this doesn't change the picture dramatically)
What is more interesting is the % of the travellers on the dole and on disability:
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/travellers-suffer-84-unemployment-28821652.html

[font=Georgia, serif]9,973 travellers able to work but they have an 84% unemployment rate, [/font]
[font=Georgia, serif]17.5% of Irish travellers with one or more disabilities, compared to 13% in the State a[/font]

[font=Georgia, serif]So saying that the most travellers are welfare scroungers - can be considered as a true statement, or it is the hate speech/xenophobic assumption?[/font]

[font=Georgia, serif]What about % of unemployed among Nigerian or other nationals? Is it racist statistics?[/font]

Godge

Jamsiek wrote: »

You keep repeating this over and over again without providing any realistic way to implement it.
Klaz asked you this many times and you still repeat the same nonsense. It's annoying to read.
Even communist countries expect their people to work.

Do you really expect companies to stay in a country where nobody works and they will be taxed higher than other countries?
Can you please explain how you would convince a CEO to locate to Ireland under your ludicrous idea?

If universal income is to work, it depends completely on the expected number of "spongers" i.e. those that will not work once they have a minimum comfort of living standard.

If the expected number of "spongers" is very low, then UI could well work, if it is high, there won't be enough tax-paying workers to pay for it. That is why any discussion on universal income has to concentrate on a discussion about how many people are out there taking the existing dole and not making a genuine effort to find work and that is an indicator of how many would do the same for UI.

Dick phelan

Signed off there on Monday, start a job on monday 2 weeks, was only on it for 3 months but have to say it was pretty crap, days are boring when your not working, i really don't know how anyone could do it for years their lives must be really monotonous with zero motivation.