The Dole

na1

Dick phelan wrote: »

Signed off there on Monday, start a job on monday 2 weeks, was only on it for 3 months but have to say it was pretty crap, days are boring when your not working, i really don't know how anyone could do it for years their lives must be really monotonous with zero motivation.

What about working for cash? There is no statistics, but I'd say 90% of those on the dole for years have worked for cash at least once if not regularly.

Tony EH

Dick phelan wrote: »

Signed off there on Monday, start a job on monday 2 weeks, was only on it for 3 months but have to say it was pretty crap, days are boring when your not working, i really don't know how anyone could do it for years their lives must be really monotonous with zero motivation.

There's always something to do. If you're "bored" because you've no job, you might want to rethink what it is you're doing with your free time.

Frankly, I think we spend FAR too much time in work. We piss away our lives in labour that largely benefits somebody other than ourselves in companies that would drop us like a hot snot when we're no longer wanted and then wonder what it is we've done with our life when we get to its end.

Too many people these days have a "live to work" attitude, like there is nothing else in life, and I find that incredibly sad.

na1

Tony EH wrote: »

Dick phelan wrote: »

Signed off there on Monday, start a job on monday 2 weeks, was only on it for 3 months but have to say it was pretty crap, days are boring when your not working, i really don't know how anyone could do it for years their lives must be really monotonous with zero motivation.

There's always something to do. If you're "bored" because you've no job, you might want to rethink what it is you're doing with your free time.

Frankly, I think we spend FAR too much time in work. We piss away our lives in labour that largely benefits somebody other than ourselves in companies that would drop us like a hot snot when we're no longer wanted and then wonder what it is we've done with our life when we get to its end.

Too many people these days have a "live to work" attitude, like there is nothing else in life, and I find that incredibly sad.

The work productivity has increased several times for the last century (on average, may be different for different jobs)
The last century's average working week was around 50 hours, so to produce the same amount of product one needs work less than 10-15 hours a week.
All numbers are very approximate and arguable, but the truth is that we have dramatically increased the number of professions producing unnecessary services, basically getting money/resources for nothing

laoch na mona

na1 wrote: »

How come the person who directly contribute 100-s of thousands euro into economy (even if underpaying tax) is worse than the person who draw from the state 10-s of thousands and never give back a cent?

don't unemployed people pay VAT and other indirect taxes. They also spend money which helps keep the economy going

kerryguy78 wrote: »

where will the future block layers, chippys and manual grafters come from?

Eastern Europe:)
plenty of young people work hard for lower wages than our parents got for the same job. We also have higher costs of living and if we end up unemployed we get less social welfare than anyone over 25 gets

na1

laoch na mona wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

How come the person who directly contribute 100-s of thousands euro into economy (even if underpaying tax) is worse than the person who draw from the state 10-s of thousands and never give back a cent?

don't unemployed people pay VAT and other indirect taxes. They also spend money which helps keep the economy going

the VAT and other indirect taxes are voluntary payments. No one can force you to pay VAT if you don't buy.



As for spending money, I'm repeating myself:

If you give me the part of my taxes that went to support "most vulnerable", I' will be more than happy to spend this "extra cash" locally, supporting local economy.

it is not the question whether the economy gets the money, it is the question who is spending the money - the most vulnerable, or the taxpayers.

HivemindXX

na1 wrote: »

the VAT and other indirect taxes are voluntary payments. No one can force you to pay VAT if you don't buy.

That's terribly foolish reasoning. By that logic you may as well say that income tax is voluntary as well, if you don't earn money then you don't have to pay it. In fact that is significantly less ridiculous than the suggestion you could manage to live in Ireland without ever paying VAT.

na1

HivemindXX wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

the VAT and other indirect taxes are voluntary payments. No one can force you to pay VAT if you don't buy.

That's terribly foolish reasoning. By that logic you may as well say that income tax is voluntary as well, if you don't earn money then you don't have to pay it. In fact that is significantly less ridiculous than the suggestion you could manage to live in Ireland without ever paying VAT.

You might be surprised but the food, and most necessities are subjected to zero VAT, or at least reduced rate VAT
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/food-and-drink.html
And yes you could manage to live without ever paying VAT and duties (or paying the next to none amount)

The alcohol, cigarettes & fuel- are not essentials to live

Mr. teddywinkles

laoch na mona wrote: »

don't unemployed people pay VAT and other indirect taxes. They also spend money which helps keep the economy going



Eastern Europe:)
plenty of young people work hard for lower wages than our parents got for the same job. We also have higher costs of living and if we end up unemployed we get less social welfare than anyone over 25 gets

Lets get all in from eastern Europe to work at all areas of the workforce. That way no one has to work. Sure it will be grand.

Steve012

Can't get a job withou experience, can't experience withou a job, dat's why me get d labour.

laoch na mona

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Lets get all in from eastern Europe to work at all areas of the workforce. That way no one has to work. Sure it will be grand.

it's a change of pace from irish people immigrating to work at least Seriously though their will always be manual labourers and trades people, immigration won't effect that

oscarBravo

Steve012 wrote: »

Can't get a job withou experience, can't experience withou a job, dat's why me get d labour.

Isn't that what Jobbridge is for?

Yes, yes, I know some companies have taken the piss with it, but I know of a number of people who have gone from unemployed to a highly successful career path through Jobbridge.

everybodyhas1

Pecker31 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, I come from a small town and see the same old people getting the dole every week, I would say 20% of them can't work due to disability or otherwise and the others are useless s**ts who want to do nothing but screw taxpayers.

They should be made work maybe 1/2 days a week for the council or whoever to make amends for the free money they are getting. It would be no harm and might stop a lot of the leeching.

**Rant Over** Phew!

Working is definitly good for a persons mental health. Some people have extreemly low self esteem. It becomes debilitating. No matter what they come from, this mind set is their downfall over and over. They do not believe in themselves. They world of employment becomes as unattainable an forigen as visiting mars. Things are never ever black and white.

Godge

laoch na mona wrote: »

don't unemployed people pay VAT and other indirect taxes. They also spend money which helps keep the economy going

That is a bit of an urban myth.

VAT on essential items is 0%.

"The Zero rate of VAT applies to the supply of most foodstuffs, such as bread, butter, cheese, cereals, condiments, flour, fruit, herbs, meat, milk, pasta, pastes, sauces, soup, spices, sugar, and vegetables (fresh or frozen). This list is by no means exhaustive."

Childrens' clothing and footwear are also zero-rated. Books and newspapers are at a reduced rate of 9%.

A lot more goods are rated at the standard rate (12.5%). When it comes to food, these include chocolate, sweets, soft drinks etc. - it actually makes the sugar tax concept strange.

It is only luxury goods - which are VAT-rated at 23%.

The urban myth generally arises from the following misunderstanding.

Assume a person earning 100k pays 40k in income tax. Out of the remaining 60k he buys a mixed range of goods, some at 0%, some at 12%, others at 23%, paying about 15% of this in VAT. That works out at 9k. However, when you relate that back to his original income of 100k, he is only paying 9% in VAT, entirely due to the fact that he is also paying 40k in income tax.

Assume a person with a family on 25k social welfare payments. They pay no income tax and buy a range of mixed goods. As they can afford less luxury goods, they pay about 12% in VAT out of the 25k. This 12% is compared to the 9% paid by the higher income and a narrative emerges that poorer people pay more of their income in VAT.

It simply isn't true because it is comparing apples with oranges. The higher income earner only pays a smaller percentage of his gross income because a huge big chunk of that gross income is taken by income tax. Of course, the stupid maths doesn't stop the populist bleating class of politician like RBB or the Smurf from shouting the mistruth from the rooftop.

ressem

Godge wrote: »

That is a bit of an urban myth.

VAT on essential items is 0%.

...

The urban myth generally arises from the following misunderstanding.

Urban myth, misunderstanding, mistruth?
The original statement was that the unemployed currently pay back through tax a (small) proportion of what they are gifted by society.


Let's see...
Adult clothing, electricity, heating fuel, spectacles (not all have medical cards), home appliances. Essentials that are charged at the standard rate except the bits that can be picked up second hand.

Is it efficient, or a way of doing things that can't be improved? Hell no.

Irish and UK society hasn't got out of it's tendency to dump people on the margins, leaving them idle or without prospects other than emigration, for destructive reasons.
We couldn't have people on social welfare opening a shop in an empty town, because that might compete with a fictional non-existent unsustainable commercial replacement.
(alternative is replacing SW with minimum income guarantee)

Have you seen the Panorama program "Living with cuts in Austerity town", where the provision of public servants is deemed so expensive that volunteers such as police volunteers are required to keep the building open?

Godge

ressem wrote: »

Urban myth, misunderstanding, mistruth?
The original statement was that the unemployed currently pay back through tax a (small) proportion of what they are gifted by society.


Let's see...
Adult clothing, electricity, heating fuel, spectacles (not all have medical cards), home appliances. Essentials that are charged at the standard rate except the bits that can be picked up second hand.

Is it efficient, or a way of doing things that can't be improved? Hell no.

Irish and UK society hasn't got out of it's tendency to dump people on the margins, leaving them idle or without prospects other than emigration, for destructive reasons.
We couldn't have people on social welfare opening a shop in an empty town, because that might compete with a fictional non-existent unsustainable commercial replacement.
(alternative is replacing SW with minimum income guarantee)

Have you seen the Panorama program "Living with cuts in Austerity town", where the provision of public servants is deemed so expensive that volunteers such as police volunteers are required to keep the building open?

That wasn't the original statement. There is this urban myth going round on social media that the unemployed and low paid pay more tax because of VAT.