The Dole

na1

Jayop wrote: »

The driving one is a great example.

Self driving technology and will put huge amounts of people out of work, like millions worldwide.

Taxis, Truckers, traffic wardens, Traffic police, delivery drivers, postal workers, bus drivers, Couriers.

Like this isn't pie in the sky stuff, this is technology that is just about ready to go into production and will not be prohibitively expensive. In fact, I'd say you'd probably be able to retrofit a vehicle with self driving equipment every soon for less than the cost of a years salary to the person who used to drive it.

What is wrong with some (low skilled) professions get redundant in the near future?
It is actually make young people start thinking of getting the proper skill for the nearer future.
There will be many skilled jobs required to support all the automation and to do a science/medical research.
Will there be enough trained people?
With current level of entitlement culture? I don't think so.


The country which not encourage people to constantly keep training to a high levels has no future.
In the current situation there in no point of getting educated, if the people can make the same money doing plumber/taxi driver jobs as for example the post graduates in different sciences.

starshine1234

But, as in Star Trek, people are supposed to do the jobs because they want to do the job, not because of the money.

Mr. teddywinkles

na1 wrote: »

Are you saying that the level of street crime is directly linked to the welfare levels?
I have bad news for you:
According to stats the burglary levels in the UK (and I assume in Ireland) are much higher than in the Eastern European countries with social assistance levels are next to zero

Id say there are a lot more low end jobs on average though. Manufacturing making up a lot of it.

Tony EH

hardtrier wrote: »

Would you like to be 64, having worked all your life for very little, reared a large family and sent them all to third level, made redundant at 59, stuck on the scrapheap in the middle of the countryside with no hope of getting a job with grey hair and wrinkles, listening to people with jobs calling you lazy? Answer: NO.

Ha ha...he should go to college and retrain to be software engineer blah, blah, blah... :rolleyes:

I have to laugh at some people and their attitudes to other people's employment situation in this country. They think it's a matter of ease to simply rock and roll up to the magic job tree and select whatever you want to do. Or just simply get a different role to one you've been doing for god knows how long. Bish, bash, bosh...done.

They're either very young, very naive, or simply incapable of smoke testing their basic ideas.

BaaLamb

Tony EH wrote: »

Ha ha...he should go to college and retrain to be software engineer blah, blah, blah... :rolleyes:

I have to laugh at some people and their attitudes to other people's employment situation in this country. They think it's a matter of ease to simply rock and roll up to the magic job tree and select whatever you want to do. Or just simply get a different role to one you've been doing for god knows how long. Bish, bash, bosh...done.

They're either very young, very naive, or simply incapable of smoke testing their basic ideas.

I think some people are just very lucky in that they have never encountered a situation where they are completely backed into a corner. We all know that there are people who are unemployed and taking the pee but equally there are people who are employed taking the pee. No matter where you go in life you will meet such characters. However, I think this idea that you simply head off and retrain or change career or move to Germany is all very well if everything is straight forward to work out but unfortunately for most of us there are complicating factors that prevent it being that simple.

Tony EH

BaaLamb wrote: »

I think some people are just very lucky in that they have never encountered a situation where they are completely backed into a corner. We all know that there are people who are unemployed and taking the pee but equally there are people who are employed taking the pee. No matter where you go in life you will meet such characters. However, I think this idea that you simply head off and retrain or change career or move to Germany is all very well if everything is straight forward to work out but unfortunately for most of us there are complicating factors that prevent it being that simple.

Of course. It's all too easy to point fingers and mock a certain group when you aren't part of that group. Perspective really is everything.

Plus, the grifters of any system always stand out. The vast majority of people will generally work within a given system. But there will always be people who'll chance their arm and use the loopholes that are naturally created within a functioning system. But, these people are few and far between in grand scheme of things. They just appear brighter on the radar, because their behavior is offensive to most. People like that will try to game any system, no matter what it is.

It's easy to look at people on social welfare and get pissed off, when you have to get up each morning and trek into work. But, it's bitter and, frankly, stupid to apply blanket labels to such a large group of very diverse people. It's also equally stupid to assume that these people are there for fun, or are having some sort of cushy existence, while poor old johnny punchclock is going out each morning to work. 99.99% of people know where they want to be though and it is on the dole.

In addition, the scenario of simply just changing career mid stream is pure fantasy. You generally don't/can't do it and most people that have work in various roles probably found themselves in those roles. I, myself, have worked at numerous different things, but I certainly have had a good bit of fortune along the way in getting those roles. But, one just doesn't switch professions like switching broadband provider. It simply isn't realistic. It takes a LOT of consideration and a LOT of work and even then, often it doesn't work out.

Likewise, the idea that one just simply ups sticks and moves to another country at the drop of the hat is for the birds too. There are a huge number of factors to consider before you even make the first move on a matter like that. That sort of thing is easier when somebody is 24, but it's not the same story at 44, or even 34, for that matter. You cannot just hit the eject button on a life/family built up in one country and head off to somewhere in Europe, as if it was like moving to Offaly. Jesus, there's a whole new language to learn for a start. :pac:

Godge

hardtrier wrote: »

Would you like to be 64, having worked all your life for very little, reared a large family and sent them all to third level, made redundant at 59, stuck on the scrapheap in the middle of the countryside with no hope of getting a job with grey hair and wrinkles, listening to people with jobs calling you lazy? Answer: NO.

No, I wouldn't but I have made choices to make sure I didn't end up in that position.

I have worked in the public sector and in the private sector, worked for myself for a while, educated myself, chosen to live in a city, paid off most of my mortgage and avoided speculative investments that had the potential to ruin it all.

End result is good, but all because of choices I made.

Everyone makes choices, if you choose not to live in a city, you take a risk that if your job goes, you are screwed, you take a risk that if you get ill, health services will not be nearby, you choose that sending your kids to college will be more expensive etc. etc.

Sure luck plays a part but good choices and bad choices are the main influence.

learn_more

Godge wrote: »

No, I wouldn't but I have made choices to make sure I didn't end up in that position.

I have worked in the public sector and in the private sector, worked for myself for a while, educated myself, chosen to live in a city, paid off most of my mortgage and avoided speculative investments that had the potential to ruin it all.

End result is good, but all because of choices I made.

Everyone makes choices, if you choose not to live in a city, you take a risk that if your job goes, you are screwed, you take a risk that if you get ill, health services will not be nearby, you choose that sending your kids to college will be more expensive etc. etc.

Sure luck plays a part but good choices and bad choices are the main influence.

Sounds to me you made those decisions because it suited you, not because you are so wise to move to the city etc. Were you in tears the day you left the country? I doubt it. Now your just bragging about your position your in. Everyone should move to the city following your logic. That's obviously ridiculous.

Tony EH

Choices are also determined by the opportunities that come a persons way.

Without the opportunity to exercise a choice, there isn't any choice.

Godge

learn_more wrote: »

Sounds to me you made those decisions because it suited you, not because you are so wise to move to the city etc. Were you in tears the day you left the country? I doubt it. Now your just bragging about your position your in. Everyone should move to the city following your logic. That's obviously ridiculous.

Tony EH wrote: »

Choices are also determined by the opportunities that come a persons way.

Without the opportunity to exercise a choice, there isn't any choice.

Some trends can be clearly seen.

Property was overpriced from the mid 2000s in Ireland, city living is the way the world is going and rural life cannot be subsidised for ever.

You work for the opportunity to make a choice. If you don't work for the opportunity, you don't get the choice. I have made some wrong choices as well but in general it hasn't gone too badly.

starshine1234

starshine1234 wrote: »

Yes, automation will lead to massive social unrest.

no... not what I said. I said that automation would lead to unrest arising to unemployment and other factors.... however, you skipped over where I pointed out that automation isn't an absolute improvement. Many industries have returned to human workers, because of the costs involved and the growing movement for an avoidance of technology in every area of society. A lot of people out there do not want technology to take over.

Jobs will be destroyed. I have already described this.

You've described a very limited scenario. The simple basis of your belief is that automation will take over everywhere replacing people in all forms of business.... And yet, your scenario doesn't take into account the very real human basis in Business or manufacturing. Forget the Umbrella corporation. Nowadays there is far more public pressure for accountability of corporations.

I'm more concerned with the patenting of Human DNA than automation. That's a much bigger risk.

For example.
An app will exist which can diagnose illness better than human doctors. But doctors will lobby the government not to allow the apps to prescribe medicines. The only way to get prescriptions will be to pay a human doctor.
What about poor people? Will they willingly die under this system if they can't afford a human doctor?
Why should doctors be protected from technology?

And whats different from the last 20 years? Poor people have generally been at the low end of things to receive care. They always have.

Already there are expert systems, like IBMs Watson, which are very good at diagnosing illness. In the near future they will be better than doctors. They will tell you what medicine you need but the government will prevent you from accessing the medicine.
Will that be accepted or will that lead to civil unrest and war?

That technology has been here for over a decade in a wide range of industries. There is still the same demand for skilled employees. If anything there is more demand, because there is the need for designers, programmers, developers, team leaders, project managers, test appliction etc.

People won't willingly die to protect doctors from technology.

That makes no sense at all. No offense intended, but is english your first language?

We see a lot of unrest because of Uber replacing taxis. What will happen when self driving cars replace lots of professional drivers?

Thats an example of unrest? Seriously?

Either the drivers are given a good standard of living for not working or else we will have massive social unrest.

Hardly. As with everything in business, they will be expected to adapt or fail and go bust...

This expectation that everyone deserves an income is not everywhere. Thankfully... business is about competition. Someone else will develop another idea or technology to close the gap in sales/services.

There is no point in talking about individual industries or individual countries. All industries will be affected, and all countries will be affected.

There's no point only because we don't have all year to talk about this. Look, it's simple. Dangerous jobs will be automated first and then the mind-boring repetitive jobs. Cash acceptance for stores or cafes are also likely to be automated.

If people wish to remain competitive in a modern society they need to upskill their ability to get jobs. Is it fair? Not really, but that's life. I'm constantly reading, and expanding my skillbase in a variety of directions because I know I will always need more in the future.... if I don't want a low end wage.

How will society work if robots are doing all of our work for us?

Probably as badly as it is now... but you haven't proven how this is likely to happen soon (and I mean soon as within the next 50 years). You just keep saying that it's going to happen. Prove it.

Either we all accept that it's great to have lots of time off, or else we have massive wars.

The difference is that I view this as an opportunity to get into something new. I'm educated as an accountant, and now I'm upskilling myself to get into artificial intelligence development.

War will happen anyway. That's got nothing to do with this topic.

TheDoc

Speedwell wrote: »

Things like database design and development of new vaccinations are also always needed, and I am sure there are out-of-work IT and medical professionals on the dole, but somehow those types of jobs never get mentioned when people start talking about jobs that those on the dole can do for free. The perception that people on the dole are always uneducated manual labourers glad to dumbly do any job assigned to them like a plow horse that doesn't care what field it plows has got to go.

At the same time though, beggers can't be choosers.

I fully know what you are getting at though. I remember a six month period out of work where I was in receipt of social welfare(I say receipt, took them six months to process my application before I saw a penny) and had numerous run in's with some workers who were on my back from nearly day one about interview stuff, job offers this and that.

The amount of times they threatened to cancel my application if I didn't go to a workshop, or go to an interview was incredible. I'm in IT with a particular skillset, and the **** I was being offered and threatened was insulting. I was taking a stance of "I have a specific career, I'm applying to specific jobs in my career, you don't worry about getting me to commute two hours to do some filing, I paid my tax, you just pay me my welfare".

I eventually got transferred to a different worker after me having to constantly hound Welfare and that lady was much more accommodating and understanding. But I still had to provide evidence and stuff of attending interviews, applying for interviews. To be honest I found the entire situation to be belittling and condescending and I hope to never have to do it ever again.

They obviously just saw me as a skilled, educated worker, and got the hooks in quickly to never let me settle. The barrage was incredible of letters, phonecalls and meetings.

And all the while I'm sitting wondering how the **** does ANYONE sponge social welfare. How? Then it became pretty clear that Welfare give up on plenty of people. they just stop hassling them because it's no use, because of the resources required, so they must just target people.

I'm actually in favour of people in receipt of dole being involved in community level projects and work. I don't think it's offensive or degrading to the skilled or educated, but if you are on the dole for a year, your clearly struggling for work and things arn't going well for you. There is the human element of you restoring some pride in doing some work and being a proper asset to the community, and the justification of the receipt of welfare after a certain point.

But as you have said, from my experience, first hand and second hand, there is a woefull inadequacy for Welfare workers to properly identify skillsets and careers, and it seems to be this massive effort to just get someone of the dole into ANYTHING ASAP, and they seem to be very happy threatening every which way. It's actually a disgrace considering the threats are basically using a persons sole income.

starshine1234

The post above illustrates exactly why I feel we need to move to a universal income model.

Ordinary people are being harrassed and haranged by Social Protection. That isn't necessary and it's unpleasant.

Social Protection is a massive bereaucracy and it could be done away with. We need to move to a less judgemental society where people are valued as people. People shouldn't be seen as economic units.

The government is clearly hate filled and refuses to legislate for a fair, equal and pleasant society. Instead we have a fractious society where minorites are encouraged to hate one another.


We need to grow up, legalise drugs, and provide universal income to all people.

starshine1234

starshine1234 wrote: »

We need to grow up, legalise drugs, and provide universal income to all people.

And yet, I've yet to hear a realistic option for financing this model. Oh, sure, you talk about increasing taxes on businesses and corporations, but this is unrealistic due to there being plenty of places (with lower costs) for businesses to move to. At the moment, Ireland offers lower taxes for corporations to set up shop here, in the hopes that this will generate higher tax (over a longer period) and reduce unemployment (therefore raises more tax from other areas).

Your suggestion seeks to target the industries that provide Irish people with Jobs, and income. How would you support anybody (never mind "universal income") when the businesses leave Ireland to go to Poland or another low cost nation with a skilled workforce>?

My problem is that the people who demand better benefits for the unemployed or the poor don't think about where the money comes from. Oh sure, they say to tax the rich, but the rich can (and will move away), they say to tax the businesses, but they can (and will move away), and then who will you tax? The middle class? But where will they get jobs if the employers have moved away?

So... if you want people to grow up, perhaps you can provide some realistic ideas for financing this utopian future?

starshine1234

I have already explained.

Taxes on companies must be increased.

If they want access to the Irish market then they must support our society by being willing to pay tax. They must not engage in constant attempts to avoid or evade tax.


Our country is setting a bad example by reducing company tax.

Why select companies to pay no tax?
Why must workers be taxed to the bone if companies are permitted to pay almost no tax?
What will happen if companies succeed in their aim of an international tax rate of <10% or thereabouts?


These low tax policies certainly have the potential to destroy our economy and our society so at the very least it is extremely reckless by our esteemed leaders. Its almost as if our esteemed leaders don't care if our society crumbles.

Enda Kenny seems more interested in getting pats on the head from Merkel and Sarkozy then he is in the welfare of Irish people. In other words, he's a despicable traitor to Ireland.


Universal income for the win, paid for by rich greedy elites.

starshine1234

starshine1234 wrote: »

I have already explained.

No. You've made basic statements. Go into far more detail here.

Taxes on companies must be increased.

If they want access to the Irish market then they must support our society by being willing to pay tax. They must not engage in constant attempts to avoid or evade tax.

What Irish market? Do you suggest they're here for the massive consumer market of 4.5million consumers?

The Job market? They're here for an educated workforce, and english speaking workforce, the Euro, and government incentives. All of which can be found elsewhere, although not as easily as in Ireland.

Our country is setting a bad example by reducing company tax.

ANd how would you encourage companies to invest in Ireland?

Why select companies to pay no tax?

Huh? I wasn't aware of this. No tax? Interesting. Links please.

Universal income for the win, paid for by rich greedy elites.

I cut out a chunk of your post because it wasn't related to what I asked. I asked you to explain how you would finance your idea? Drop the socialist political gibberish. Give me some realistic details.

oscarBravo

starshine1234 wrote: »

Taxes on companies must be increased.

As an owner of an SME, I hereby register my objection to your plan to increase my taxes.

Godge

starshine1234 wrote: »

Enda Kenny seems more interested in getting pats on the head from Merkel and Sarkozy then he is in the welfare of Irish people. In other words, he's a despicable traitor to Ireland.

.

2 million at work, net immigration again, if Kenny is indeed responsible, he must be congratulated by all of us.

na1

Recent story from myself:
I needed some electrical work to be done in the house, the work is relatively simple, but ESB regulations require this to be done by a certified electrician.
The thing is I couldn't find anyone (although there a quite a few electricians in the area)!
The last person I was calling said he has nearly 2 month booked in advance!
That's a joke! this is not a high skill IT or doctoral job which requires years of training, this is an ELECTRICIAN. One can train to be a domestic appliance electrician in less than a year.
No mercy to people who live on the dole for years.

looksee

na1 wrote: »

Recent story from myself:
I needed some electrical work to be done in the house, the work is relatively simple, but ESB regulations require this to be done by a certified electrician.
The thing is I couldn't find anyone (although there a quite a few electricians in the area)!
The last person I was calling said he has nearly 2 month booked in advance!
That's a joke! this is not a high skill IT or doctoral job which requires years of training, this is an ELECTRICIAN. One can train to be a domestic appliance electrician in less than a year.
No mercy to people who live on the dole for years.

It seems unlikely that a 'domestic appliance electrician' would be qualified to do work that requires a certified electrician.

It is not true that becoming an electrician can be done without years of training - there are exams and apprenticeships and certification that cannot be done without significant work and time.

But it can be started while you're unemployed rather than simply deciding everything is beyond you. Nearly any job that pays a reasonable income requires some commitment in education and time. The problem with people long-term on the dole is that they view it as too much effort, or requires too much time. Or simply its below them. Personally I suspect that many of those on JB and haven't tried to really get work, because they have a snob mentality. The jobs available (including being an electricin, fitter, joiner, etc) are all too "low" for them. It's fine for other people, or immigrants but not them. Whereas with the JB they can sit and moan that there's no jobs for what they're qualified for.

starshine1234

Many people on the dole don't complain.

They are happy with their life. They have lots of time off and lots of time to spend with their family. They have time to cook proper meals if they wish, and they have time to exercise if they wish.

Whereas people who are working often complain about long commutes and bad traffic, and about the fact they have little or no spare time. They don't have time to cook proper meals or to exercise.

Being on the dole seems to make a lot of sense. I find it difficult to criticise people for making good decisions that benefit them.

I understand the people who are working are unhappy about what might be described as 'freeloaders'.
Perhaps those workers should lobby the government to give them what they want.

na1

looksee wrote: »

na1 wrote: »

Recent story from myself:
I needed some electrical work to be done in the house, the work is relatively simple, but ESB regulations require this to be done by a certified electrician.
The thing is I couldn't find anyone (although there a quite a few electricians in the area)!
The last person I was calling said he has nearly 2 month booked in advance!
That's a joke! this is not a high skill IT or doctoral job which requires years of training, this is an ELECTRICIAN. One can train to be a domestic appliance electrician in less than a year.
No mercy to people who live on the dole for years.

It seems unlikely that a 'domestic appliance electrician' would be qualified to do work that requires a certified electrician.

It is not true that becoming an electrician can be done without years of training - there are exams and apprenticeships and certification that cannot be done without significant work and time.

Are you a qualified electrician?
I don't have a electrician qualification, but my third level education in applied science gives me enough knowledge to do ANY domestic electrical work.

Bass Reeves

na1 wrote: »

Are you a qualified electrician?
I don't have a electrician qualification, but my third level education in applied science gives me enough knowledge to do ANY domestic electrical work.

What do you refer to as domestic electrical work. All new electrical appliances now come with plugs attached. Other than that you have changing light fittings which some people are unsure of. The law regarding domestic electrical work changed a few years ago. Now all work has to be certified. A lot of electricians have shied away from this certification as registering and certifying has become an expensive business. The ESB has finally managed to only have one certifying body previouslyRECI now ETCI.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/certification-process

Above is a breif synopsis from the ESB regarding the same. It is now illegal to carry out any electrical work that requires extending the electric in your house. For instance previously plumbers might have wired out a shower connection themselves. Or at industrial level suppliers of electrical doors or gates might cponnect them. I herad of a case where a company supplying a electrical roller dood was stopped from extending a power point from inside a wall to the outside. It required drilling a hole( which he was allowed to do) mounting his own door and it electricals but to connect the box back to the power point was an electrical contractors job.

Similarly with houses there is an opinion out there that installation of new light fittings which requires the changing of the connection point is a certifiable job

starshine1234

If that is true, and I do accept what you say, then it seems to me to be an example of incredible over-reach by the government.

How do they intend to enforce the law?
I thought un-enforceable laws were considered bad practice?

like banning smoking in houses when children are present.

Bass Reeves

starshine1234 wrote: »

If that is true, and I do accept what you say, then it seems to me to be an example of incredible over-reach by the government.

How do they intend to enforce the law?
I thought un-enforceable laws were considered bad practice?

like banning smoking in houses when children are present.

However the reaction to it is the issue. You are I may take on electrical work that other may not, changing from a pendend bulb holder in hallway to a candalabra tye fitting. Or installing an external plug point for christmas lights etc.

However for some they would prefer to get an electricain. Now here is what is happening a lot of electricain that work directly for contractors will no longer do this work as tommers as the have not registered to certify in there own name. Ergo na1 problem.

na1

Regarding the work to be done, I wouldn't bother finding an electrician, unless ESB property was involved in the process. As starshine1234 mentioned there is no way of enforcing this law in general.

You can stop the contractors to do the work, as they have to sign the invoice and this can be used as a proof in court against them. But you can't stop person making changes in his own house
(I understand that this can make his house insurance void though)

starshine1234

But the insurance company would also have to prove the fact.

I suppose that perhaps they wouldn't have to prove it in court. They can simply state their opinion and refuse to pay out on a claim.

If their customer made a complaint I wonder what would happen?

Again, I suspect nothing as insurance companies have a tendency to bully their own customers, and to fight cases using huge resources if challenged.


speaking to myself here....
(meant as a joke, not as a criticism of others)

holly44

na1 wrote: »

Are you a qualified electrician?
I don't have a electrician qualification, but my third level education in applied science gives me enough knowledge to do ANY domestic electrical work.

Book smart, Street Idiot!
Just because you read about its dont mean you could do it! FFS!

starshine1234

I've been advocating that companies need to pay more tax. Companies need to pay sufficient tax to support our societies and to ensure that our socities are viable.


The Apple case proves my point.

If corporations don't have to pay tax then who will take up the slack?
Workers?

But, in Ireland at least, many workers would already be as well off on the dole as working. Taxing them further is not viable.

Governments need to wake up and start forcing corporations to pay tax. The alternative is the failure of our societies.


Universal income for the win.


Who will stick up for our societies?
The government appears unwilling to. The government is more interested in providing favours to its friends.
Ordinary people need to take control of politics.