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Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

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  • #1412
    jenny smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭jenny smith


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I don't know why she would believe Mary had a secret and that the secret was sexual abuse. It could have been anything.
    Also if there was abuse then it usually follows that the abuser would abuse other children in the area and there doesn't seem to have been any evidence of that. If there was you'd have a very good suspect.
    have you seen the film.? she says it twice. There is a suggestion the suspect interfered with children when in the UK. They have come forward it is in this thread way back


  • #1413
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    jenny smith wrote: »
    Collins is convinced and so is her sister. I do not know why they believe this
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I don't know why Collins would believe that though.
    Also her sister was 6 years old and surely wouldn't know anything about abuse at that age.
    jenny smith wrote: »
    Her sister believes it now . have you seen the doc. She says "I believe Mary had a secret" and that it was sexual abuse and that Mary was "feisty and would tell" So she was killed. Margo believes it too. It may be Margo who said she would tell or both of them

    Collins says he came to that conclusion over the years but does not say what made him believe it
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I don't know why she would believe Mary had a secret and that the secret was sexual abuse. It could have been anything.
    Also if there was abuse then it usually follows that the abuser would abuse other children in the area and there doesn't seem to have been any evidence of that. If there was you'd have a very good suspect.


    shes not 6 now

    Why do you think she would possibly believe that her twin sister was abused by this person and had a secret , add in Mary being the more feisty talkative one .. and perhaps the abuse didn't happen just that day or even that day but over a longer period.. think of the bigger picture here.. they aren't just plucking the sexual abuse theory out of thin air for no reason


  • #1414
    jenny smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭jenny smith


    Burtman wrote: »
    The panic was caused by the fact that the killer acting on impulse had abused the girl and then couldnt quiten her so killed her, the body had to be hidden as it carried the evidence of a sexual assault and that would show in an autopsy...so there was no use claiming it was an accident or anything..the resulting panic caused the culprit to hide the body out of plain view until they had time to think and gather themselves, then when the opportunity was presented it was relocated by car to a better spot ...then a cover story was used to place the girl in a location she never was...ie: on the boreen to the Cauley house...

    If the child had died accidentally then the parents were the ones in the firing line in the minute chance they would be considered to have neglected the child...which would have been highly unlikely..

    I also believe the reason for the mothers initial panic was the fact that she knew there was imminent danger in the area...she knew there was someone close at hand with the capability
    to interfere with a child and who probably had a history of previous that was being kept under wraps like it is today
    good theory but this is someone who is thouht to be a bit 'slow'


  • #1415
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    jenny smith wrote: »
    why are they so anxious to have an inquest? what can it achieve in terms of moving thing on?

    maybe it would mean some very nervous people having to testify and get their stories spot on.

    look at it from another angle - why the refusal to have one from the mother, and to go as far as to say she will put that request in her will


  • #1416
    jenny smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭jenny smith


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    maybe it would mean some very nervous people having to testify and get their stories spot on.

    look at it from another angle - why the refusal to have one from the mother, and to go as far as to say she will put that request in her will
    look at it from another angle - why the refusal to have one from the mother, and to go as far as to say she will put that request in her will
    agreed. But are people obliged to testify in an inquest?

    EDIT - I see Witnesses may be required to attend the inquest to give testimony on oath regarding the circumstances and cause of the death. When a jury is present at an inquest, it is the jury rather than the Coroner who delivers the verdict. Jury service at an inquest is obligatory and a majority verdict is used to reach a verdict. Nobody is found guilty or innocent at an inquest and no criminal or civil liability is determined.


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  • #1417
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    shes not 6 now

    Why do you think she would possibly believe that her twin sister was abused by this person and had a secret , add in Mary being the more feisty talkative one .. and perhaps the abuse didn't happen just that day or even that day but over a longer period.. think of the bigger picture here.. they aren't just plucking the sexual abuse theory out of thin air for no reason

    Maybe so but in the vast majority of abuse cases the perpetrator would have a lot more than one victim. It would be highly unusual for an abuser to only abuse one child. Plus i'd wonder why it took so long for this information to come out.
    I'm not saying it didn't occur but it's a bit strange if it only came out years later. If Collins felt the same as Mary's sister then maybe they have some clear evidence that we don't know about. Maybe it was being kept quiet for some reason.


  • #1418
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    jenny smith wrote: »
    agreed. But are people obliged to testify in an inquest?

    EDIT - I see Witnesses may be required to attend the inquest to give testimony on oath regarding the circumstances and cause of the death. When a jury is present at an inquest, it is the jury rather than the Coroner who delivers the verdict. Jury service at an inquest is obligatory and a majority verdict is used to reach a verdict. Nobody is found guilty or innocent at an inquest and no criminal or civil liability is determined.

    An inquest surely only determines the cause of death.
    As nobody knows the cause due to a body never being found then it is hard to see the point in one.


  • #1419
    jenny smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭jenny smith


    tayto lover wrote: »
    An inquest surely only determines the cause of death.
    As nobody knows the cause due to a body never being found then it is hard to see the point in one.
    I tend to agree even though
    it says"Witnesses may be required to attend the inquest to give testimony on oath regarding the circumstances and cause of the death."

    There is also the possibility of adjournment as there is an ongoing investigation

    But as orahbhoy67 says it may put pressure on people - although if they have closed ranks till now they could brazen it out. If one says they do not know something and no one can show evidence they do know, I cannot see them breaking


  • #1420
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Maybe so but in the vast majority of abuse cases the perpetrator would have a lot more than one victim. It would be highly unusual for an abuser to only abuse one child. Plus i'd wonder why it took so long for this information to come out.
    I'm not saying it didn't occur but it's a bit strange if it only came out years later. If Collins felt the same as Mary's sister then maybe they have some clear evidence that we don't know about. Maybe it was being kept quiet for some reason.

    maybe said abuser wasnt only abusing one child . and it all took so long to come out because any other child involved had to grow up and learn that what was being done was wrong and have the bravery to come forward.. and maybe thats is how these people are so certain that abuse was a factor


  • #1421
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Was it not somewhere in the yard or on the lane that the dog kept going back to? I was of the opinion it was. I could be wrong.

    I think that postman has suspicions about the whole thing himself.

    It was "down the lane, near the house" was the quote. I doubt he meant right under the lane. The general area the dog kept bringing them to should be excavated, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't, it's a basic thing to overlook and is easily sorted It may even have been deliberately overlooked and ignored and downplayed at the time, if some of the conspiracy theories are true. Again this seems to be the one thing that bothers the postman most, after this new documentary surfaced. He would be well able to identify the position today, and the area surrounding it could easily be professionally excavated. I'm also pretty sure by the tone, the postman would have a lot more to share in private. It's the one thing that has come to the surface as a direct result of the recent re-publicity that is easy to check out, and doesn't involve a mess of politics and family fueding. Small details / leads like this can sometimes help a lot if they are followed up. Again, it should be properly and professionally eliminated and not ignored / brushed off.


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  • #1422
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    maybe said abuser wasnt only abusing one child . and it all took so long to come out because any other child involved had to grow up and learn that what was being done was wrong and have the bravery to come forward.. and maybe thats is how these people are so certain that abuse was a factor

    But if he was abusing others surely one of them would have made a complaint to the Garda at some stage and he could then have been arrested and questioned. That doesn't seem to have happened. I wonder why?


  • #1423
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »
    It was "down the lane, near the house" was the quote. I doubt he meant right under the lane. The general area the dog kept bringing them to should be excavated, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't, it's a basic thing to overlook and is easily sorted It may even have been deliberately overlooked and ignored and downplayed at the time, if some of the conspiracy theories are true. Again this seems to be the one thing that bothers the postman most, after this new documentary surfaced. He would be well able to identify the position today, and the area surrounding it could easily be professionally excavated. I'm also pretty sure by the tone, the postman would have a lot more to share in private. It's the one thing that has come to the surface as a direct result of the recent re-publicity that is easy to check out, and doesn't involve a mess of politics and family fueding. Small details / leads like this can sometimes help a lot if they are followed up. Again, it should be properly and professionally eliminated and not ignored / brushed off.

    I can't see anyone burying a body on a lane itself. Too easy to be seen or someone to come on you.
    I'm going with the car theory.


  • #1424
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    tayto lover wrote: »
    But if he was abusing others surely one of them would have made a complaint to the Garda at some stage and he could then have been arrested and questioned. That doesn't seem to have happened. I wonder why?

    There have been lots of fairly high profile cases in the last few years which resulted from complaints about abuse decades before.
    Nothing unusual about that it seems.


  • #1425
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    There have been lots of fairly high profile cases in the last few years which resulted from complaints about abuse decades before.
    Nothing unusual about that it seems.

    That's my point though.
    Why has nobody come forward to accuse anyone in this case?


  • #1426
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    tayto lover wrote: »
    That's my point though.
    Why has nobody come forward to accuse anyone in this case?

    Maybe
    1. there was no abuse
    or
    2. they are not yet prepared to do so


  • #1427
    Giacomo McGubbin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Giacomo McGubbin


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I can't see anyone burying a body on a lane itself. Too easy to be seen or someone to come on you.
    I'm going with the car theory.

    ???

    No one claims something must be specifically buried on the the lane itself. No one. The postman said "down the lane near the house". That area is surrounded by trees and bushes. He did not say "on the lane". I still find it very suspicious that the area repeatedly identified by the original tracker dog at the time of the disappearance was not pursued then or now, as is the Postman it seems. It's almost being deliberately avoided at this stage, which makes it even more suspicious. Hopefully someone reading this thread will have the sense to pursue the Postman's hint and get the further information and full story from him, and the location.


  • #1428
    Anjali Kuomo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭Anjali Kuomo


    Bryan McMahon was in Finner Camp, which is about half way between Ballyshannon and Bundoran (not Fermanagh), only 5 or 6 miles from Cashelard. He knew Cashelard very well as he had lived there. He actually knew the Gallagher family. He didn't have a car but if it was believed that Mary "never left the hillside" then a car wasn't necessary. I also read that he was connected to anonymous letters received by the Gardai in 1977. I don't know if that story was ever established as being true....as far as I know it appeared in a newspaper only once. I also read that he was recognised by some people as the man who had pointed out the Gallagher home to them. Also, isn't it true that a file was sent to the DPP following his release from custody? Nobody but the Gardai know at this stage what that file contains. As in all investigations, not all information is in the public domain. As I said in my first post, I felt it was outrageous that the arrest of this man for questioning was described in the documentary as "an attempt by the Gardai to frame an innocent man".


  • #1429
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    tayto lover wrote: »
    But if he was abusing others surely one of them would have made a complaint to the Garda at some stage and he could then have been arrested and questioned. That doesn't seem to have happened. I wonder why?

    we are all wondering why


  • #1430
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    we are all wondering why

    Do you know if there were others?
    Has there been any talk or rumours going around about the same suspect?


  • #1431
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Anjali Kuomo wrote: »
    Bryan McMahon was in Finner Camp, which is about half way between Ballyshannon and Bundoran (not Fermanagh), only 5 or 6 miles from Cashelard. He knew Cashelard very well as he had lived there. He actually knew the Gallagher family. He didn't have a car but if it was believed that Mary "never left the hillside" then a car wasn't necessary. I also read that he was connected to anonymous letters received by the Gardai in 1977. I don't know if that story was ever established as being true....as far as I know it appeared in a newspaper only once. I also read that he was recognised by some people as the man who had pointed out the Gallagher home to them. Also, isn't it true that a file was sent to the DPP following his release from custody? Nobody but the Gardai know at this stage what that file contains. As in all investigations, not all information is in the public domain. As I said in my first post, I felt it was outrageous that the arrest of this man for questioning was described in the documentary as "an attempt by the Gardai to frame an innocent man".

    and you feel that because of a lot of things which you have read which you have no links for ?? .. Finner camp to cashelard would be a 2 and a half hour walk. so 5 hours in total there and back not including the time there and yet no one spotted him ?

    he was indeed brought up in a foster home in cashelard by a woman who abused him over a long course of time and as stated he had just got a state payment for said abuse when he was arrested for his initial crime which in itself was a very dubious conviction imo


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  • #1432
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Do you know if there were others?
    Has there been any talk or rumours going around about the same suspect?

    I really cant spell it out any more read my previous post and join the dots and you will see where I am coming from


  • #1433
    Burtman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20 ✭Burtman


    jenny smith wrote: »
    good theory but this is someone who is thouht to be a bit 'slow'

    yeah but ive seen plenty of "slow" folks who culd buy and sell ye!


  • #1434
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Maybe
    1. there was no abuse
    or
    2. they are not yet prepared to do so

    or

    3. there has been people come forward but still the gards refuse to question this man.


  • #1435
    jenny smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 716 ✭✭✭jenny smith


    Anjali Kuomo wrote: »
    Bryan McMahon was in Finner Camp, which is about half way between Ballyshannon and Bundoran (not Fermanagh), only 5 or 6 miles from Cashelard. He knew Cashelard very well as he had lived there. He actually knew the Gallagher family. He didn't have a car but if it was believed that Mary "never left the hillside" then a car wasn't necessary. I also read that he was connected to anonymous letters received by the Gardai in 1977. I don't know if that story was ever established as being true....as far as I know it appeared in a newspaper only once. I also read that he was recognised by some people as the man who had pointed out the Gallagher home to them. Also, isn't it true that a file was sent to the DPP following his release from custody? Nobody but the Gardai know at this stage what that file contains. As in all investigations, not all information is in the public domain. As I said in my first post, I felt it was outrageous that the arrest of this man for questioning was described in the documentary as "an attempt by the Gardai to frame an innocent man".
    The DPP knows and did not charge him on its contents


  • #1436
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    or

    3. there has been people come forward but still the gards refuse to question this man.

    Surely if someone came forward and made a complaint then they have to question him? They would have no choice in the matter.


  • #1437
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Surely if someone came forward and made a complaint then they have to question him? They would have no choice in the matter.

    you would think so

    you would also think if the two surviving retired gardai who were on the case submit reports to their former superiors naming him & why they believe it to be so that they would take their word for it too.

    This case is rotten and the powers that be dont want it solved at the moment cos it will have a domino effect and also some involved are still in power and holding far too much power


  • #1438
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,307 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    you would think so

    you would also think if the two surviving retired gardai who were on the case submit reports to their former superiors naming him & why they believe it to be so that they would take their word for it too.

    This case is rotten and the powers that be dont want it solved at the moment cos it will have a domino effect and also some involved are still in power and holding far too much power

    You might need a few young politicians involved in this case to bring it up in the Dail. You might get further that way.


  • #1439
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    oranbhoy67 wrote: »
    you would think so

    you would also think if the two surviving retired gardai who were on the case submit reports to their former superiors naming him & why they believe it to be so that they would take their word for it too.

    This case is rotten and the powers that be dont want it solved at the moment cos it will have a domino effect and also some involved are still in power and holding far too much power

    Have the 2 retired gaurds actually done that?


  • #1440
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Have the 2 retired gaurds actually done that?

    yes Collins submitted a 28 page report , dont know how long Murrays was


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  • #1441
    oranbhoy67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭oranbhoy67


    Mr Collins said: “Mary was dead within an hour of going missing and never left the Cashelard hillside alive. That was my view very shortly into the investigation and, 36 years later, that view has not changed.”

    He continued: “Within 48 hours I was convinced that she had died and my view was cemented when an interested party came to me and said that he knew who had killed Mary.

    “He said the perpetrator had some kind of history. He wouldn’t talk after that and to this day that witness has never spoken of it again.”

    http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/40074/Mary-Boyle-Mystery---Retired.html

    You have got to wonder why said man wasn't subsequently arrested for withholding information ?


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