Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

Going Forward

Gemma O'Doherty
@gemmaod1

The politician whom ex senior gardai claim ordered a cover-up in the #MaryBoyle case has been attempting to silence people about the case
6:45 am - 29 Jul 2016

All a bit cryptic..........

jenny smith

Jadaol wrote: »

please stay away from joe duffy. He is not a good option for having a rational constructive discussion. I'm not sure what i can say on the internet without insulting the man so i'll leave it there

well then any of the rte reps. no point saying they are not interested if no one contacts them. gemma said she was not interested in them airing her doc.so why would they chase 'her' story

I do not like Duffy much but

He is not a good option for having a rational constructive discussion

is not really true and issues raised sometimes do get results. It would be interesting to see what response would be made to anyone wanting to talk about Mary Boyle.

Going Forward

jenny smith wrote: »

well then any of the rte reps. no point saying they are not interested if no one contacts them. gemma said she was not interested in them airing her doc.so why would they chase 'her' story

I do not like Duffy much butis not really true and issues raised sometimes do get results. It would be interesting to see what response would be made to anyone wanting to talk about Mary Boyle.

This is far too complex and far too legally charged for that type of entertainment show.

You just couldn't have randomers ringing in saying what they feel, which is the usual format.

But the odd time, it's obvious that RTE dictates the content, particularly when ex gardai are interviewed.

Many contributors have acknowledged not even having been listening to the show immediately prior to Liveliine inviting them on to comment and then proceed to thank Joe for contacting them.

Point is, they do "set pieces" from time to time, this could be done for this.

So, if Martin Collins was willing to go on it and talk as he did, well....

It's one of the most popular shows in the country.

It would take a lot of work to organise, and a big ask from Collins to participate (especially if hes feeling burned after his documentary appearance) but who knows, if no one asks either him or Joe Duffy you never find out.

Duffy might well have had an interest in the case over the years.

For OB it be worth him contacting the research team on the show only if he had the go ahead from Martin Collins.

That may or not be forthcoming.

Jadaol

jenny smith wrote: »

well then any of the rte reps. no point saying they are not interested if no one contacts them. gemma said she was not interested in them airing her doc.so why would they chase 'her' story

I do not like Duffy much but is not really true and issues raised sometimes do get results. It would be interesting to see what response would be made to anyone wanting to talk about Mary Boyle.

I get where you are coming from and i do think it's a good idea to approach someone in rte who might listen. I know the show can get results for some by highlighting an issue but he also has a habit of making a show of people through his own obnoxious-ness if that's a word. I can only ever recall it serving to name and shame companies/operators, what rte would class interfering in an ongoing police investigation would be a no-no likewise any politician can duck for cover using this line also

I think going forward's idea about making a proper approach to gsoc even if it's just to get a knock back should be done, and then i don't know. It'll require some inspired thinking to think what to do as well..................

Unfortunately, we don't have investigative journalism in this country. Most of what passes for it is ringing up different tds to find out who's bitching about who in the dail and all that nonsense. And then the other side of it is 'crime' reporting which focuses on 'gangland' killers that nobody cares about apart from the people who have to live through it day in day out.

It's a tough one. Really the only thing i could think that would work is if there was some notable international focus. Anybody know anyone working in cnn or fox news???

jenny smith

Going Forward wrote: »

This is far too complex and far too legally charged for that type of entertainment show.

You just couldn't have randomers ringing in saying what they feel, which is the usual format.

But the odd time, it's obvious that RTE dictates the content, particularly when ex gardai are interviewed.

Many contributors have acknowledged not even having been listening to the show immediately prior to Liveliine inviting them on to comment and then proceed to thank Joe for contacting them.

Point is, they do "set pieces" from time to time, this could be done for this.

So, if Martin Collins was willing to go on it and talk as he did, well....

It's one of the most popular shows in the country.

It would take a lot of work to organise, and a big ask from Collins to participate (especially if hes feeling burned after his documentary appearance) but who knows, if no one asks either him or Joe Duffy you never find out.

Duffy might well have had an interest in the case over the years.

For OB it be worth him contacting the research team on the show only if he had the go ahead from Martin Collins.

That may or not be forthcoming.

I disagree. They covered many issues like sexual abuse etc. it is not any more entertainment than gemma on local radios

They could easily set up a time delay and should have one anyway

jenny smith

Jadaol wrote: »

I get where you are coming from and i do think it's a good idea to approach someone in rte who might listen. I know the show can get results for some by highlighting an issue but he also has a habit of making a show of people through his own obnoxious-ness if that's a word. I can only ever recall it serving to name and shame companies/operators, what rte would class interfering in an ongoing police investigation would be a no-no likewise any politician can duck for cover using this line also

I think going forward's idea about making a proper approach to gsoc even if it's just to get a knock back should be done, and then i don't know. It'll require some inspired thinking to think what to do as well..................

Unfortunately, we don't have investigative journalism in this country. Most of what passes for it is ringing up different tds to find out who's bitching about who in the dail and all that nonsense. And then the other side of it is 'crime' reporting which focuses on 'gangland' killers that nobody cares about apart from the people who have to live through it day in day out.

It's a tough one. Really the only thing i could think that would work is if there was some notable international focus. Anybody know anyone working in cnn or fox news???

think going forward's idea about making a proper approach to gsoc even

should have been done before gemma's doc. No point accusing the gardai of not investigating if an attempt to complain them to an independent ombudsman was not made

I saw a few posts back - i think someone posted a link to a book- the gardai in the original investigation used alsatians as it would take too long to bring dogs from the dog unit in Dublin

Surely they could have brought the dogs from Dublin after the alsatian search.Use the alsatians as they had them in case they found anything and then bring in the Dublin garda dogs

It would take a lot of work to organise, and a big ask from Collins to participate (especially if hes feeling burned after his documentary appearance)

why is he feeling burned. He made claims them denied them so if he is burned he burned himself

oranbhoy67

An ex gardai diver -who has since wrote a book which included a few paragraphs about Mary- speaks in todays Donegal news

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

Have any of you contacted RTE or say asked Joe Duffy if you can speak about it. Gemma says on one interview she was not particularly interested in having the doc on RTE as she wanted control. Paraphrashing now - so words to that effect

Joe Duffy , Vincent Browne , Miriam O Callaghan and all the rest are asked daily to bring attention to the case , and they never do

Yeah Gemma told me that from the start and tbh im not too happy with it , she cant complain now of lack of attention from mainstream media when RTE and others asked to co-operate with her investigations, we can complain though .. it feels at times like we are in a constant tug of war between arguing politicians & arguing Journalists when you would hope they could all come together and try and find a solution to this case

oranbhoy67

tayto lover wrote: »

If I was in your position i would have been up there asking questions and finding out if more digs were planned. As Mary is your relative they would hardly mind you being there. You might have found out a bit more.

ive been down already & I'll be down again.. i have a 10 day holiday coming up and after that it is all systems go , the problem I have is I don't drive or id be down there every day possible

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

An ex gardai diver -who has since wrote a book which included a few paragraphs about Mary- speaks in todays Donegal news

Mr Lavery believes if there had of been search groups at the time of Mary' dissappearance the case may have progressed
Had of been?

Approx 30 mins into doc Margo says a mini bus of people came to search and when they came backthey were asked "any news" and some of them said "we're not going up there any more" MARGO:"Its easy seen what happened... they all know what happened that wee girl"

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

Mr Lavery believes if there had of been search groups at the time of Mary' dissappearance the case may have progressed
Had of been?

Approx 30 mins into doc Margo says a mini bus of people came to search and when they came backthey were asked "any news" and some of them said "we're not going up there any more" MARGO:"Its easy seen what happened... they all know what happened that wee girl"

My take was that he meant an organised search team set up already for such circumstances, there certainly was hundreds searching for Mary right away, just doesn't seem to be very organised

In his book the diver said that he couldnt search the middle of the lakes as he had no boat so he had to be towed from men on the shore as he dived
that and talk of their DIY wet suits , doesnt paint a very professional picture of what happened in the aftermath

Going Forward

jenny smith wrote: »

Mr Lavery believes if there had of been search groups at the time of Mary' dissappearance the case may have progressed
Had of been?

Approx 30 mins into doc Margo says a mini bus of people came to search and when they came backthey were asked "any news" and some of them said "we're not going up there any more" MARGO:"Its easy seen what happened... they all know what happened that wee girl"

Had of been?

I thought there had been groups of people all over the place, and members of the public attending incident room briefings,

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

My take was that he meant an organised search team set up already for such circumstances, there certainly was hundreds searching for Mary right away, just doesn't seem to be very organised

In his book the diver said that he couldnt search the middle of the lakes as he had no boat so he had to be towed from men on the shore as he dived
that and talk of their DIY wet suits , doesnt paint a very professional picture of what happened in the aftermath

Ireland probably did not have a proper underwater search team -not sure of term-then

He also says mistakes were made at the start. i would say that is true of a lot of investigations in fairness.

Did they ever search the middle of the lakes? Collins says all lakes were searched

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Joe Duffy , Vincent Browne , Miriam O Callaghan and all the rest are asked daily to bring attention to the case , and they never do

How is this being done?

How are they being asked to cover it and who is asking them?

Has someone actually spoken to them personally, asking them?

If they have they've done very well to get on a phone and end up speaking to the ones you've mentioned.

You'd usually have to wade through a sea of researchers who may or may not be having a good day and may or may not be on work experience.


G.OD appears to have issues with RTE, and they're nothing to do with this case by the looks of it,

I'm sure TV3 can put issues they have aside and be fairly sharp about trying to get one up on RTE by showing even an edited version of the documentary.

At 82mins (?) even with no ads it would need to be condensed for TV3 to be interested.

Imagine even a whittled down version, followed by a "since this documentary was aired...." and then you have the news of the front page Probe, and then the Red VW........

And TV3 does like a bit of sensationalism.

Gemma? If you're reading this?

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

My take was that he meant an organised search team set up already for such circumstances, there certainly was hundreds searching for Mary right away, just doesn't seem to be very organised

In his book the diver said that he couldnt search the middle of the lakes as he had no boat so he had to be towed from men on the shore as he dived
that and talk of their DIY wet suits , doesnt paint a very professional picture of what happened in the aftermath

This review might be of interest

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Joe Duffy , Vincent Browne , Miriam O Callaghan and all the rest are asked daily to bring attention to the case , and they never do

Yeah Gemma told me that from the start and tbh im not too happy with it , she cant complain now of lack of attention from mainstream media when RTE and others asked to co-operate with her investigations, we can complain though .. it feels at times like we are in a constant tug of war between arguing politicians & arguing Journalists when you would hope they could all come together and try and find a solution to this case

That is good. Glad to hear you are all tryinganywayseems to be a bit of career move for gemma

Burtman

Going Forward wrote: »

Had of been?

I thought there had been groups of people all over the place, and members of the public attending incident room briefings,

I think one of the mistakes hes referring to was that members of the public were privvy to too much information insofar as they had too much access to the incident room and the word was out where searchs were going to be taking place the following day...the culprit had this info so was able to stay ahead of garda as far as knowing if the body was in a safe enough spot or whether that spot was liable for imminent searching ...

DonegalTech

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

from what I've been told the Gardai have spent the last 2 weeks "turning over" a neighbours field with a JCB and not looked particularly active, its also a field that has already been dug up in the past. You have to wonder why RTE don't have a reporting crew up for even one report and a chat with a local Garda representative

I wasn't aware of that, but my assumption is that they make the same reactionary moves every so often, just to show the case is still alive. When in reality, they maybe aren't leading a full focused and determined investigation.

tayto lover

Burtman wrote: »

I think one of the mistakes hes referring to was that members of the public were privvy to too much information insofar as they had too much access to the incident room and the word was out where searchs were going to be taking place the following day...the culprit had this info so was able to stay ahead of garda as far as knowing if the body was in a safe enough spot or whether that spot was liable for imminent searching ...

That seems to have been the case. I can't understand how ordinary members of the public were allowed access to the incident room at all????
Having said that i'm sure some of them were also privy to hearing the suspect's name bandied about too and why none of them ever approached him in later years and demanded answers is beyond me too.

DonegalTech

Mistakes most definitely were made in the beginning, within the first hour or so of the incident being reported to the Gardai and them arriving on at the scene.

Can you imagine telling a Garda NOT to enter the house to speak to the mother of the missing child, as she is just too upset? The child was still presumed alive at this stage, so upset or not, the Gardai would've wanted to get to it and get a clear picture of what happened.

- The time she was last seen would have been vital, this would have helped Gardai establish how far she could have plausibly walked on foot, which would then determine the radius of the immediate search zone from the last point she was seen alive.

- Adults and Children and every living adult within that radius would all be interviewed Immediately, have detailed statements taken regarding their last interactions and how each of them seen events unfolding from that point until the Gardai arrived on the street of the homestead.

Time and details are vital, and if a mistake was made, I believe it may have been during this initial period.

jenny smith

tayto lover wrote: »

That seems to have been the case. I can't understand how ordinary members of the public were allowed access to the incident room at all????
Having said that i'm sure some of them were also privy to hearing the suspect's name bandied about too and why none of them ever approached him in later years and demanded answers is beyond me too.

we do not know if they did or not. we have no idea what may have happened in that area in the last 39 years. probably only a tiny amount of info has ever come out

tayto lover

DonegalTech wrote: »

Mistakes most definitely were made in the beginning, within the first hour or so of the incident being reported to the Gardai and them arriving on at the scene.

Can you imagine telling a Garda NOT to enter the house to speak to the mother of the missing child, as she is just too upset? The child was still presumed alive at this stage, so upset or not, the Gardai would've wanted to get to it and get a clear picture of what happened.

- The time she was last seen would have been vital, this would have helped Gardai establish how far she could have plausibly walked on foot, which would then determine the radius of the immediate search zone from the last point she was seen alive.

- Adults and Children and every living adult within that radius would all be interviewed Immediately, have detailed statements taken regarding their last interactions and how each of them seen events unfolding from that point until the Gardai arrived on the street of the homestead.

Time and details are vital, and if a mistake was made, I believe it may have been during this initial period.

All that is great in theory but they probably had to wait the guts of an hour for a solitary garda to arrive or maybe 2 of them.
That might happen in Dublin where they have plenty of men but in rural Donegal you have no chance of loads of men going to the scene..

Going Forward

tayto lover wrote: »

All that is great in theory but they probably had to wait the guts of an hour for a solitary garda to arrive or maybe 2 of them.
That might happen in Dublin where they have plenty of men but in rural Donegal you have no chance of loads of men going to the scene..

Yep.

It's hard to imagine how seriously it was taken.

Receive a call at station, child missing.

Is it all hands on deck, panic sations, or a bit of I'll send someone down to you.

Even today.

How the call is handled, is the child missing in Dublin or a rural place, at risk, not at risk, there are many factors which could slow down or speed up a proper response.

Then as mentioned the probably less than state of the art training and equipment, makes a hard job even harder.

The one thing that I would expect to be consistent is attending members on arrival at the scene getting a fairly quick idea of what actually happened.

The cover up that Collins later alluded to may have had something to do with steering them away from that initial conclusion.

It's not known what he meant when he said it wasn't a garda or political cover up.

tayto lover

Going Forward wrote: »

Yep.

It's hard to imagine how seriously it was taken.

Receive a call at station, child missing.

Is it all hands on deck, panic sations, or a bit of I'll send someone down to you.

Even today.

How the call is handled, is the child missing in Dublin or a rural place, at risk, not at risk, there are many factors which could slow down or speed up a proper response.

Then as mentioned the probably less than state of the art training and equipment, makes a hard job even harder.

The one thing that I would expect to be consistent is attending members on arrival at the scene getting a fairly quick idea of what actually happened.

The cover up that Collins later alluded to may have had something to do with steering them away from that initial conclusion.

It's not known what he meant when he said it wasn't a garda or political cover up.

Now the bit in bold is very interesting. I hadn't heard that before.

Going Forward

tayto lover wrote: »

Now the bit in bold is very interesting. I hadn't heard that before.

http://www.highlandradio.com/2016/07/13/lead-investigator-in-mary-boyle-case-says-there-was-neither-apolitical-nor-garda-cover-up/

Burtman

This case had initial difficuties due to the fact that it was something like 2.5 hours after she was last seen when AGS were notified, aslo this was treated as a missing/maybe adbucted child from the off and the possibility that the child was already dead and what they were actually dealing with was the occultation of a corpse took some more time which marred things even further..

Giacomo McGubbin

DonegalTech wrote: »

If they continue to ignore this case, and there is no genuine action at all. Then I believe the Justice for Mary Boyle group should prepare for the next General Election, and launch a full scale campaign to highlight the role of one prominent Political Party in this case.

Make it political football for the all politicians to play and have fun, all at the cases expense ? That's the surest way to make sure Mary's case goes nowhere forever.
Don't ever trust ANY politician or ANY political party with something as important as this. They are all out for one thing, nothing is what they claim it to be. The public should be able to trust and support the campaign without having to support any particular party, or take sides between mother and daughter etc. That's crucial. If not, you will loose any neutral support, which is vital.

Johnboy1951

How much corroboration has there been about the last time the child was seen and where?
Has there been any corroboration of her going towards the neighbours after her relative?
Start at the beginning; get proper details of the child's movements and corroboration of those reported movements.
From what I recall, there was little or none of the above, which gives me a rather uneasy feeling.

Giacomo McGubbin

DonegalTech wrote: »

I am in favour of excavating the entire mountain if there is even a remote chance of finding the little girl or evidence.

But we are approaching the 40 year mark of her disappearance, and anytime in the past that publicity has built up, the Gardai/Government have sent a crew with a digger to the area and dug up ground for a week or so. That alone has been deemed by the powers that be to be sufficient to quell local discontent at that time.

After 39 years, we have a potential suspect that has never been questioned as a suspect. I don't suggest charging the person involved, simply question them and maybe even rule them out. This failure to question the person has reinforced the thinking that there was Political interference in the case, and the source of all Political power is General Elections, where those in power have to face the public.

This should be a two track process, by all means pursue potential suspects in legal manner that can stick, but the search for any evidence should also continue. The very fact this location, identified by the original tracker dog, a location that is very easily professionally excavated / searched and identifiable, keeps getting constantly sidelined by everyone at every opportuinity for 40 years, seems to be very suspicious to me.

The whole aim of this is to exercise is to find Mary. The secondary aim is finding someone to jail. Like it or not, if you ever want anyone convicted, or anyone to believe the evidence found, the Gardai are going to have to be present when anything is found, or the defence and politics will be able to get it dismissed very easily.

Going Forward

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Has there been any corroboration of her going towards the neighbours after her relative?

I'd say so, Martin Collins alleges solving the case was hampered by a cover up of some sort.

Thinking out loud, what did he encounter to make him say such a thing?