Why did Gardai destroy possible burial site of Irelands longest missing child?

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Mr Collins said: “Mary was dead within an hour of going missing and never left the Cashelard hillside alive. That was my view very shortly into the investigation and, 36 years later, that view has not changed.”

He continued: “Within 48 hours I was convinced that she had died and my view was cemented when an interested party came to me and said that he knew who had killed Mary.

“He said the perpetrator had some kind of history. He wouldn’t talk after that and to this day that witness has never spoken of it again.”

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/40074/Mary-Boyle-Mystery---Retired.html

You have got to wonder why said man wasn't subsequently arrested for withholding information ?

These seem like good men.

They were fairly young at the time. Not much in the way of training and not much in the way of experience in a case like this, back in 1977, I'm guessing.

The same as many members back then.

Who knows what regrets they may have about how they themselves handled the case in hindsight.

This is pure conjecture on my part.

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

you would think so

you would also think if the two surviving retired gardai who were on the case submit reports to their former superiors naming him & why they believe it to be so that they would take their word for it too.

This case is rotten and the powers that be dont want it solved at the moment cos it will have a domino effect and also some involved are still in power and holding far too much power

But what they believe,no matter how sincere, is evidence as defined in law , probably not enough to arrest him anyway

Is withholding evidence always an offence. I thought I read one does not have to answer questions about crimes but cannot find now

oranbhoy67

jenny smith wrote: »

But what they believe,no matter how sincere, is evidence as defined in law , probably not enough to arrest him anyway

Is withholding evidence always an offence. I thought I read one does not have to answer questions about crimes but cannot find now

there was a man in Donegal appeared in court today on the same offence in relation to the assassination of ex-IRA man Denis Donaldson in Glenties here in Donegal in 2006

DonegalTech

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely if someone came forward and made a complaint then they have to question him? They would have no choice in the matter.

you would think so

you would also think if the two surviving retired gardai who were on the case submit reports to their former superiors naming him & why they believe it to be so that they would take their word for it too.

This case is rotten and the powers that be dont want it solved at the moment cos it will have a domino effect and also some involved are still in power and holding far too much power

If they continue to ignore this case, and there is no genuine action at all. Then I believe the Justice for Mary Boyle group should prepare for the next General Election, and launch a full scale campaign to highlight the role of one prominent Political Party in this case.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Surely if someone came forward and made a complaint then they have to question him? They would have no choice in the matter.

I can tell you for a fact, based on a case with which I am very familiar (not Mary Boyle, nor myself), that it appears to be quite impossible to get the Guards to question, or charge, someone who is clearly guilty of a crime. On video camera committing said crime, to be precise.

Going Forward

jenny smith wrote: »

Is withholding evidence always an offence. I thought I read one does not have to answer questions about crimes but cannot find now

It would seem to be something that is taken very seriously:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/act/24/enacted/en/print.html

Going Forward

DonegalTech wrote: »

If they continue to ignore this case, and there is no genuine action at all. Then I believe the Justice for Mary Boyle group should prepare for the next General Election, and launch a full scale campaign to highlight the role of one prominent Political Party in this case.

I wouldn't agree.

I can see the last resort nature of it, but there must be a better way.

There's an awful risk of someone totally inexperienced putting their foot in it and screwing the legal side up completely and in public.

DonegalTech

Going Forward wrote: »

DonegalTech wrote: »

If they continue to ignore this case, and there is no genuine action at all. Then I believe the Justice for Mary Boyle group should prepare for the next General Election, and launch a full scale campaign to highlight the role of one prominent Political Party in this case.

I wouldn't agree.

I can see the last resort nature of it, but there must be a better way.

There's an awful risk of someone totally inexperienced putting their foot in it and screwing the legal side up completely and in public.

This case has been buried for almost 40 years now, legal avenues are running out, as is time for a prosecution and maybe finding the wee girl. Make no mistake, this case has been successfully buried by the powers that be, I mean 40 years on and a potential suspect hasn't been questioned!!

With time running out, I would ensure the public knows what they are voting for.

Going Forward

DonegalTech wrote: »

This case has been buried for almost 40 years now, legal avenues are running out, as is time for a prosecution and maybe finding the wee girl. Make no mistake, this case has been successfully buried by the powers that be, I mean 40 years on and a potential suspect hasn't been questioned!!

With time running out, I would ensure the public knows what they are voting for.

I know.

But it IMO would be virtually impossible to run a campaign like that in public without being legally gagged the moment someone opens their mouth.

What is the story with GSOC?

What exactly was/were the complaints that were dismissed actually about?

Copies of the two ex gardas recent and a request for an explanation of what their position on the failure to arrest the at least two people who claimed to have information would surely be front page news? (In the context of the more recent 2012 legislation)

Even if their official response is no comment.

Their "inability" to investigate this case would be a very public advertisement of how toothless they actually are.

And of great public interest.

We've already noted how limited their remit is, turn that back on them and the ones who limited their remit, those in power.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I can tell you for a fact, based on a case with which I am very familiar (not Mary Boyle, nor myself), that it appears to be quite impossible to get the Guards to question, or charge, someone who is clearly guilty of a crime. On video camera committing said crime, to be precise.

Have you made a complaint to the Ombudsman? Surely that would help.

Giacomo McGubbin

It doesn't matter how corrupt and cosy some politicians and some senior gardai are, you are never ever going to get that situation changed, nor admitted to, under any circumstances. It's not in their interests. The main thing here is to force the authorities to act, and the only thing that will force them to act, is some obvious physical evidence that can't be denied or covered up, or a proper legal and authentic confession, you have to push from the right end and not waste time and energy pushing the wrong end by trying to clean up and solve a rotten system beyond repair. Unfortunately, neither of these two things (physical evidence or confession) is likely either. So, even though if might be a longshot, professionally and legally excavating the area identified by the original tracker dog, has the best chance of anything recently learned so far, and the easiest to get on with, and is worth eliminating. It will also have the effect of keeping the publicity going, and it will help raise a lot of fresh questions. It's one of the easiest and best next tactical moves. For that reason people will attempt to block and ignore it, but it will be hard to stop it.

oranbhoy67

just to clarify I emailed the leading Detective on the case 2 days ago.. still no reply

Esel

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

there was a man in Donegal appeared in court today on the same offence in relation to the assassination of ex-IRA man Denis Donaldson in Glenties here in Donegal in 2006

In this case, presumably the DPP is of the opinion that the charge can be proven. As it is sub judice, probably better not to discuss that particular case further.

In Mary's case, it is valid (to say the least) for questions to be asked as to why this potential witness either was not interviewed further or, if they were, why they did not make a statement.

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

just to clarify I emailed the leading Detective on the case 2 days ago.. still no reply

Listen, a solicitor needs to be contacted on this.

This was said before by another poster first.

Don't go in with all guns blazing!

First consultation is sometimes free.

If not €50 or so.

Ask them if they think that GSOC has the power to intervene in light of the ex garda's written reports and the 2012 withholding of information legislation.

They'll say yes or no.

Either way you should get them, even if they say no, to write to GSOC, or write a letter to GSOC for you asking them to intervene.

Any written response you get from GSOC, you are free to publish anywhere.

It is yours to do with as you want.

You'll probably need the new original ex gardai reports to offer as evidence they're real and a copy of them to give the solicitors.

Actually, on second thoughts, Anne's solicitor should be doing all this.

Is he?

Why is the complaint GSOC dismissed not in the public arena, they are a public body.

Did he submit a complaint that was outside their remit, not that that should preclude it from being made public, see my previous post.

Was there a complaint made to GSOC????

Going Forward

By the way, don't expect any state assistanc



"Yesterday, the Irish Examiner first attempted to put queries about this matter to the Fine Gael press office, but we were directed to the Department of Finance.

The Department of Finance said as this was a health matter, they could not comment.

A Department of Health spokesman said he could not speak for Mr Noonan and referred us back to the Department of Finance, but also suggested we speak to the Department of Children."

Different scenario, same story.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/michael-noonan-didnt-want-to-know-about-sex-abuse-claims-382178.html

oranbhoy67

Going Forward wrote: »

Listen, a solicitor needs to be contacted on this.

Don't go in with all guns blazing!

First consultation is sometimes free.

If not €50 or so.

Ask them if they think that GSOC has the power to intervene in light of the ex garda's written reports and the 2012 withholding of information legislation.

They'll say yes or no.

Either way you should get them, even if they say no, to write to GSOC, or write a letter to GSOC for you asking them to intervene.

Any written response you get from GSOC, you are free to publish anywhere.

It is yours to do with as you want.

You'll probably need the new original ex gardai reports to offer as evidence they're real and a copy of them to give the solicitors.

Actually, on second thoughts, Anne's solicitor should be doing all this.

Is he?

Why is the complaint GSOC dismissed not in the public arena, they are a public body.

Did he submit a complaint that was outside their remit, not that that should preclude it from being made public, see my previous post.

Was there a complaint made to GSOC????

Im almost certain that Ann already has a complaint in with GSOC

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Im almost certain that Ann already has a complaint in with GSOC

She has, a spurious and stupid complaint in my opinion.


https://www.google.ie/search?site=&source=hp&ei=daOaV8O0LaGMgAaFlqDIDA&q=gsoc+mary+boyle&oq=&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.41l3.0.0.0.4611.1.1.0.1.1.0.468.468.4-1.1.0....0...1c..64.mobile-gws-hp..0.1.74.3.Jd7yYB3gHyg


Complaining about not being told about the last "search".

She's not the garda contact, she/her solicitor should be complaining about why she's not a garda contact, instead of complaining about not being informed about something.

What's going to come back from GSOC on that complaint?

It's inadmissible because Gardai informed their point of contact.

That's why I said ages ago that there's nothing to be gained from submitting a series of nuisance complaints to GSOC.

They need to be asked to intervene or explain why they cannot instigate an investigation into some part of the case.

Not harangued.

Esel

Going Forward wrote: »

By the way, don't expect any state assistanc



"Yesterday, the Irish Examiner first attempted to put queries about this matter to the Fine Gael press office, but we were directed to the Department of Finance.

The Department of Finance said as this was a health matter, they could not comment.

A Department of Health spokesman said he could not speak for Mr Noonan and referred us back to the Department of Finance, but also suggested we speak to the Department of Children."

Different scenario, same story.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/michael-noonan-didnt-want-to-know-about-sex-abuse-claims-382178.html

HTF does this help here?

Triboro

Has a signed petition been used before?
Possibility of getting several hundred or thousand signatures with the march and Donegal match in Dublin Saturday.
A petition presented to GSOC asking them to intervene may help?

Stepping Stone

Going Forward wrote: »

Listen, a solicitor needs to be contacted on this.

Don't go in with all guns blazing!

First consultation is sometimes free.

If not €50 or so.

Ask them if they think that GSOC has the power to intervene in light of the ex garda's written reports and the 2012 withholding of information legislation.

They'll say yes or no.

Either way you should get them, even if they say no, to write to GSOC, or write a letter to GSOC for you asking them to intervene.

Any written response you get from GSOC, you are free to publish anywhere.

It is yours to do with as you want.

You'll probably need the new original ex gardai reports to offer as evidence they're real and a copy of them to give the solicitors.

Actually, on second thoughts, Anne's solicitor should be doing all this.

Is he?

Why is the complaint GSOC dismissed not in the public arena, they are a public body.

Did he submit a complaint that was outside their remit, not that that should preclude it from being made public, see my previous post.

Was there a complaint made to GSOC????

I would wonder why she is using a solicitor in another jurisdiction, who may not be familiar with local laws/ customs in the Republic (do not underestimate the power of relationships on a professional level or knowledge that comes from professional chit chat).

I just feel that by acting in such a naive way (I know I keep using that word) that the family are ultimately damaging potential progress.

Oranbhoy, get legal advice yourself. You don't have to stay local to where you are but I would strongly advise you to use someone in this legal jurisdiction.

Also, I am not sure about emailing a Garda. I could be wrong but a lot of stations have a massive IT shortage, so that email might not be checked for ages. A solicitor will advise you how to contact them and the best way to get an answer.

Going Forward

Esel wrote: »

HTF does this help here?

Passing the buck.

Going Forward

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Im almost certain that Ann already has a complaint in with GSOC

We know of the current complaint, I'm wondering is that the only issue in the whole 39 year investigation that has been complained about?

People can't be complaining in documentaries etc. about garda corruption and having all doors closed in their faces if they haven't even submitted a complaint or a request to GSOC to investigate this garda corruption.

If they haven't knocked on GSOC's door they shouldn't be saying it was closed in their face.

If there was a complaint made about the investigation of the case, what was GSOC's response??

Their hands are tied because of something something?? Get it out there, show just how ineffective they are, use it to your advantage.

Show that that door has been closed.

You said you think there is a complaint in with GSOC.

Can you find out if there was apart from this current one?

DonegalTech

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

It doesn't matter how corrupt and cosy some politicians and some senior gardai are, you are never ever going to get that situation changed, nor admitted to, under any circumstances. It's not in their interests. The main thing here is to force the authorities to act, and the only thing that will force them to act, is some obvious physical evidence that can't be denied or covered up, or a proper legal and authentic confession, you have to push from the right end and not waste time and energy pushing the wrong end by trying to clean up and solve a rotten system beyond repair.

I am in favour of excavating the entire mountain if there is even a remote chance of finding the little girl or evidence.

But we are approaching the 40 year mark of her disappearance, and anytime in the past that publicity has built up, the Gardai/Government have sent a crew with a digger to the area and dug up ground for a week or so. That alone has been deemed by the powers that be to be sufficient to quell local discontent at that time.

After 39 years, we have a potential suspect that has never been questioned as a suspect. I don't suggest charging the person involved, simply question them and maybe even rule them out. This failure to question the person has reinforced the thinking that there was Political interference in the case, and the source of all Political power is General Elections, where those in power have to face the public.

DonegalTech

Going Forward wrote: »

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

Im almost certain that Ann already has a complaint in with GSOC

We know of the current complaint, I'm wondering is that the only issue in the whole 39 year investigation that has been complained about?

People can't be complaining in documentaries etc. about garda corruption and having all doors closed in their faces if they haven't even submitted a complaint or a request to GSOC to investigate this garda corruption.

If they haven't knocked on GSOC's door they shouldn't be saying it was closed in their face.

If there was a complaint made about the investigation of the case, what was GSOC's response??

Their hands are tied because of something something?? Get it out there, show just how ineffective they are, use it to your advantage.

Show that that door has been closed.

You said you think there is a complaint in with GSOC.

Can you find out if there was apart from this current one?

I think your on to something here, I mean I think a complaint about the investigation or lack of investigation should have already been lodged. Specifically the fact that a potential suspect has never officially been questioned as a suspect.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

Have you made a complaint to the Ombudsman? Surely that would help.

It's not my case. It's someone I know very well - and the video evidence conveniently disappeared, with a denial that there were ever cameras there, despite the fact that the victim specifically requested that Gardai obtain the video evidence minutes after the crime occurred.

Going Forward wrote: »

By the way, don't expect any state assistanc



"Yesterday, the Irish Examiner first attempted to put queries about this matter to the Fine Gael press office, but we were directed to the Department of Finance.

The Department of Finance said as this was a health matter, they could not comment.

A Department of Health spokesman said he could not speak for Mr Noonan and referred us back to the Department of Finance, but also suggested we speak to the Department of Children."

Different scenario, same story.

Not surprising. Think Bridget McCole, and now the recent letter to the victims of abuse "informing" them that they might be left with hefty legal bills should they proceed with a case. Is it just my imagination, or does anyone else see a (potential) pattern emerging here?

oranbhoy67

Going Forward wrote: »

We know of the current complaint, I'm wondering is that the only issue in the whole 39 year investigation that has been complained about?

People can't be complaining in documentaries etc. about garda corruption and having all doors closed in their faces if they haven't even submitted a complaint or a request to GSOC to investigate this garda corruption.

If they haven't knocked on GSOC's door they shouldn't be saying it was closed in their face.

If there was a complaint made about the investigation of the case, what was GSOC's response??

Their hands are tied because of something something?? Get it out there, show just how ineffective they are, use it to your advantage.

Show that that door has been closed.

You said you think there is a complaint in with GSOC.

Can you find out if there was apart from this current one?

I can find out and will, I'm almost certain that their is

oranbhoy67

DonegalTech wrote: »

I am in favour of excavating the entire mountain if there is even a remote chance of finding the little girl or evidence.

But we are approaching the 40 year mark of her disappearance, and anytime in the past that publicity has built up, the Gardai/Government have sent a crew with a digger to the area and dug up ground for a week or so. That alone has been deemed by the powers that be to be sufficient to quell local discontent at that time.

After 39 years, we have a potential suspect that has never been questioned as a suspect. I don't suggest charging the person involved, simply question them and maybe even rule them out. This failure to question the person has reinforced the thinking that there was Political interference in the case, and the source of all Political power is General Elections, where those in power have to face the public.

from what I've been told the Gardai have spent the last 2 weeks "turning over" a neighbours field with a JCB and not looked particularly active, its also a field that has already been dug up in the past. You have to wonder why RTE don't have a reporting crew up for even one report and a chat with a local Garda representative

jenny smith

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

from what I've been told the Gardai have spent the last 2 weeks "turning over" a neighbours field with a JCB and not looked particularly active, its also a field that has already been dug up in the past. You have to wonder why RTE don't have a reporting crew up for even one report and a chat with a local Garda representative

Have any of you contacted RTE or say asked Joe Duffy if you can speak about it. Gemma says on one interview she was not particularly interested in having the doc on RTE as she wanted control. Paraphrashing now - so words to that effect

Jadaol

jenny smith wrote: »

Have any of you contacted RTE or say asked Joe Duffy if you can speak about it. Gemma says on one interview she was not particularly interested in having the doc on RTE as she wanted control. Paraphrashing now - so words to that effect

please stay away from joe duffy. He is not a good option for having a rational constructive discussion. I'm not sure what i can say on the internet without insulting the man so i'll leave it there

tayto lover

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

from what I've been told the Gardai have spent the last 2 weeks "turning over" a neighbours field with a JCB and not looked particularly active, its also a field that has already been dug up in the past. You have to wonder why RTE don't have a reporting crew up for even one report and a chat with a local Garda representative

If I was in your position i would have been up there asking questions and finding out if more digs were planned. As Mary is your relative they would hardly mind you being there. You might have found out a bit more.