Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

Sillycave · 28-07-2016 04:22PM

Looking for advice on how to increase pr and bf in the herd
Currently milking around 26.5 litres/day @ 3.25 pr & 3.45 bf with Lact 4.66
Been doing this for most of the month but feel there is solids been left behind easily and want to rectify
Cows currently on good quality aftergrass and approx. 4kg 18% nut
Herd is He with high fr cross

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 04:27PM

Sillycave wrote: »

Looking for advice on how to increase pr and bf in the herd
Currently milking around 26.5 litres/day @ 3.25 pr & 3.45 bf with Lact 4.66
Been doing this for most of the month but feel there is solids been left behind easily and want to rectify
Cows currently on good quality aftergrass and approx. 4kg 18% nut
Herd is He with high fr cross

What's your od figures for milk ,fat and protein ??.there poor solids considering your feeding well and on aftergrass ,it may be as simple as genetics are only capable of those figures your lactose is also low I reckon ,what's in that 18% nut ??.lack of energy content could also explain it

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 04:29PM

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Teagasc monitor farm in wexford doing
17.15 litres @ 4.65bf 3.85pr and kgms 1.5.
Cross bred herd no meal.

Mind me asking what way your %'s breakdown?
You have a lot of litres with 0.75 kg of meal.
No flies on your grass management.

4 grass guys in journal this week whilst also have high solid % have poor ltr production .

jack o shea · 28-07-2016 04:30PM

Might be the wrong thread here lads but any of ye have a Belmac topper or know anything About them!? Seem reasonably priced towards abbey a and major.

yewtree · 28-07-2016 04:47PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

4 grass guys in journal this week whilst also have high solid % have poor ltr production .

I don't think it matters that much-litres/cow. What's important is profit, Lads with high & lower yielding cows running successful businesses.
Don't think we should focus entirely on yeild/cow.
Speaking from my own perspective where there are significant drawing and repayments its much more important to maintain a margin over total costs.

blackdog1 · 28-07-2016 04:54PM

mahoney_j wrote:

What's your od figures for milk ,fat and protein ??.there poor solids considering your feeding well and on aftergrass ,it may be as simple as genetics are only capable of those figures your lactose is also low I reckon ,what's in that 18% nut ??.lack of energy content could also explain it

+1 on the lactose problem. Cows not getting enough energy. Find out what's in your nut exactly and let us know.

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 05:06PM

yewtree wrote: »

I don't think it matters that much-litres/cow. What's important is profit, Lads with high & lower yielding cows running successful businesses.
Don't think we should focus entirely on yeild/cow.
Speaking from my own perspective where there are significant drawing and repayments its much more important to maintain a margin over total costs.

Fully agree on profit ,but on low price cycles like we're currently on v high solid % deliever a smaller price over base .litres with decent % are cruical or else ur cheque will be very small I'll still have cows milking 17/18 litres or more in November with fats near 5 snd p over 4

pedigree 6 · 28-07-2016 05:28PM

yewtree wrote: »

I don't think it matters that much-litres/cow. What's important is profit, Lads with high & lower yielding cows running successful businesses.
Don't think we should focus entirely on yeild/cow.
Speaking from my own perspective where there are significant drawing and repayments its much more important to maintain a margin over total costs.

Well it kind of is down to how much yield per cow. In that it's now down to ms/cow and which cow can deliver the most amount of ms on the least amount of meal or can convert the meal most efficiently into ms and still calve on time every year. At the end of the day it's profit per cow with no hassle cows, whatever the colour they are.

yewtree · 28-07-2016 05:45PM

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Well it kind of is down to how much yield per cow. In that it's now down to ms/cow and which cow can deliver the most amount of ms on the least amount of meal or can convert the meal most efficiently into ms and still calve on time every year. At the end of the day it's profit per cow with no hassle cows, whatever the colour they are.

My point is that it's not a great indicator of farm profitability. There was a poster on here on oad with low milk litres/cow and it wasn't holding his business back.

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 06:33PM

yewtree wrote: »

My point is that it's not a great indicator of farm profitability. There was a poster on here on oad with low milk litres/cow and it wasn't holding his business back.

Good point and not disagreeing but will oad with no other income or say a 4 k a year herd with circa 400 kg solids pay the bills including drawings and wages and allow for farm investement .do Tegasc push this low input non/no meal system that's so common in New Zealand because they think we're incapable of breeding and feeding efficiently a higher yielding higher solids cow ????

rangler1 · 28-07-2016 06:45PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Good point and not disagreeing but will oad with no other income or say a 4 k a year herd with circa 400 kg solids pay the bills including drawings and wages and allow for farm investement .do Tegasc push this low input non/no meal system that's so common in New Zealand because they think we're incapable of breeding and feeding efficiently a higher yielding higher solids cow ????

It's their job to make farmers aware of all their options, I doubt if they care too much which option farmers take....why would they

Panch18 · 28-07-2016 06:51PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Good point and not disagreeing but will oad with no other income or say a 4 k a year herd with circa 400 kg solids pay the bills including drawings and wages and allow for farm investement .do Tegasc push this low input non/no meal system that's so common in New Zealand because they think we're incapable of breeding and feeding efficiently a higher yielding higher solids cow ????

Surely the OAD gang have a better chance than most of taking drawing and wages - this year more than any

With the price of milk being so low there is now reward for sending milk in - the reward is in cutting costs and there is no doubt that OAD has a lower cost base - it needs to

I think your argument is more valid in a high milk price environment where it can be argued that OAD is leaving profit behind by having a low milk supply

Just my thoughts - not doing OAD though

pedigree 6 · 28-07-2016 06:56PM

yewtree wrote: »

My point is that it's not a great indicator of farm profitability. There was a poster on here on oad with low milk litres/cow and it wasn't holding his business back.

I'm still milking, Mahoney's still milking.
We all know our business and how to make money or at least we should.
Different strokes for different folks.
Look here I like to breed a square fr/hol that can walk on roadways and doesn't go lame, calves in Feb and March every year, cull any cows outside this time and fatten.
5 cows culled this year due to this and averaged 1200 in Mart. Produce a nice square Freudian bull calf and sell in Mart averaged 150.
Produce 1700 gallons at average 3.8f 3.5pr on 1 t meal.
Buy your stockbulls as calves and put the feet up at breeding watching out for repeats and either ai then or get another bull if in trouble (hasn't happened yet touch wood). Get your square bull where you know the herd manager you knows the best cows which don't go lame calve on time and good fat and protein.

Look we are all at this game long enough and know how to get the best deals on inputs and only spend when necessary.
You know what suits yourself.

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 07:16PM

Panch18 wrote: »

Surely the OAD gang have a better chance than most of taking drawing and wages - this year more than any

With the price of milk being so low there is now reward for sending milk in - the reward is in cutting costs and there is no doubt that OAD has a lower cost base - it needs to

I think your argument is more valid in a high milk price environment where it can be argued that OAD is leaving profit behind by having a low milk supply

Just my thoughts - not doing OAD though

My question though will it generate enough income though ,the higher solids% produced will only generate a couple of cent over base .lower costs and all .

whelan2 · 28-07-2016 07:38PM

Take the poster earlier with the low solids what is he leaving behind ?

pedigree 6 · 28-07-2016 07:51PM

Sillycave wrote: »

Looking for advice on how to increase pr and bf in the herd
Currently milking around 26.5 litres/day @ 3.25 pr & 3.45 bf with Lact 4.66
Been doing this for most of the month but feel there is solids been left behind easily and want to rectify
Cows currently on good quality aftergrass and approx. 4kg 18% nut
Herd is He with high fr cross

When did they calve?
What is worming programme like?
What is milk urea if processor test?
What was bf and pr like this time last year?
Is dung soft or watery looking?
Is bf and pr going up or down?

OverRide · 28-07-2016 08:10PM

whelan2 wrote: »

Take the poster earlier with the low solids what is he leaving behind ?

Breeding

kevthegaff · 28-07-2016 08:15PM

3.42pr 4.01 fat yield just under 20 litres 1 kg 13% maize, barley nut. Even cutting back on fertilliser (don't kill me!) Have 130 acres in bales and pit. Dung is very watery, and cows s##tting like mad around the yard. Wormed all herd and fluked everything at housing. Should I go with straw, sorry have no hay. Have 40% first calvers, urea 39- 42

pedigree 6 · 28-07-2016 08:34PM

kevthegaff wrote: »

3.42pr 4.01 fat yield just under 20 litres 1 kg 13% maize, barley nut. Even cutting back on fertilliser (don't kill me!) Have 130 acres in bales and pit. Dung is very watery, and cows s##tting like mad around the yard. Wormed all herd and fluked everything at housing. Should I go with straw, sorry have no hay. Have 40% first calvers, urea 39- 42

Mine were the same a month ago.
Wormed and fluked 3 weeks after housing.
But they still didn't look quite right and dung watery in some of them.
Gave them all neoprinil pour on and milk is up and dung normal now. So must have been a problem.
Shine on them now too.

blackdog1 · 28-07-2016 08:42PM

Panch18 wrote:

Surely the OAD gang have a better chance than most of taking drawing and wages - this year more than any

Panch18 wrote:

With the price of milk being so low there is now reward for sending milk in - the reward is in cutting costs and there is no doubt that OAD has a lower cost base - it needs to

Talking about Oad is any of the spring lads gonna do this in October to December for the European scheme to reduce milk?. Would up your solids and so you wouldn't be losing that much plus cows would be in great nick for the spring.

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 08:51PM

blackdog1 wrote: »

Talking about Oad is any of the spring lads gonna do this in October to December for the European scheme to reduce milk?. Would up your solids and so you wouldn't be losing that much plus cows would be in great nick for the spring.

No current plans to do it ,no money till next Feb/March snd in all likelihood later and also scheme is likely to be over subscribed so the 14 cent could be a Lot lower or quantity paid at 14 cent lower .cheap time of year to produce milk ,solids high anyway and massive pile of surplus bales so I'm ploughing ahead as normal

yewtree · 28-07-2016 08:52PM

mahoney_j wrote: »

Good point and not disagreeing but will oad with no other income or say a 4 k a year herd with circa 400 kg solids pay the bills including drawings and wages and allow for farm investement .do Tegasc push this low input non/no meal system that's so common in New Zealand because they think we're incapable of breeding and feeding efficiently a higher yielding higher solids cow ????

I think you can provided debt structure is right and costs are kept under control and in fairness on a twice a day system you wouldn't want to be lower than 400kg ms/cow.
Maybe its the people i deal with in Teagasc I always though they promoted high grass utilization and fertile high EBI cow above all else, from reading your posts Mahoney you seem to be focused on that.
Once cows can use plenty of grass and can last in the herd they will be profitable in spring calving systems.

mahoney_j · 28-07-2016 09:02PM

yewtree wrote: »

I think you can provided debt structure is right and costs are kept under control and in fairness on a twice a day system you wouldn't want to be lower than 400kg ms/cow.
Maybe its the people i deal with in Teagasc I always though they promoted high grass utilization and fertile high EBI cow above all else, from reading your posts Mahoney you seem to be focused on that.
Once cows can use plenty of grass and can last in the herd they will be profitable in spring calving systems.

Correct that is what I focus on but also putting the Devils food (up to 1.5t meal )to maximise litres and solids produced .dont get me wrong on Tegasc ,learnt endless stuff from them ,moorepark and discussion groups but I don't follow it hook line and sinker ,certain advice from them I just find v general and lazy especially a lot of the kiwi methods .2 very different countries
On oad how many cows do U think or how many litres would u need to sufficiently pay all farm bills ,yourself a wage and develop the farm .nothing against oad ,I know 2 guys at it one with an off farm job and other in his 50s with no successor no debt and kids gone through college

kevthegaff · 28-07-2016 09:11PM

Sorry I gave pour on, v good condition but still watery dung

pedigree 6 · 28-07-2016 09:48PM

kevthegaff wrote: »

Sorry I gave pour on, v good condition but still watery dung

Pour on for stomach worms and lung worms?

kowtow · 28-07-2016 10:25PM

mahoney_j wrote:

Fully agree on profit ,but on low price cycles like we're currently on v high solid % deliever a smaller price over base .litres with decent % are cruical or else ur cheque will be very small I'll still have cows milking 17/18 litres or more in November with fats near 5 snd p over 4

I think the point is that there is a sort of reverse leverage in effect for high solids cows when prices are low, particularly if concentrates are needed... just as there is leverage working against high input cows when grain is expensive.... it's not so much bare profitability - which is what everyone is aiming for- but the rate at which things become more or less profitable for a given change in feed or milk price, or in grass utilised (for example). These things are never linear, while every farm and every model has an optimal spot.. they also have different risks when things don't go quite as planned.

Very informative discussion.

Sillycave · 29-07-2016 09:34AM

mahoney_j wrote: »

What's your od figures for milk ,fat and protein ??.there poor solids considering your feeding well and on aftergrass ,it may be as simple as genetics are only capable of those figures your lactose is also low I reckon ,what's in that 18% nut ??.lack of energy content could also explain it

Forgive me but what do you mean by od figures?
Cows produce on average for last year 3.61 bf & 3.48 pr
Apologies nuts is 16% pr, Cr. Oil & Fat 3.5%, Cr. Fibre 10.5%, Cr. Ash 5.7%, Magenism 1.21% & Sodium 0.29%
Composition is GM Maize, Barley, Field Beans, Soya (Bean) Hull, Distillers dried grains from Wheat, Wheatfeed, Palm Kernal

blackdog1 wrote: »

+1 on the lactose problem. Cows not getting enough energy. Find out what's in your nut exactly and let us know.

Listed above

pedigree 6 wrote: »

When did they calve?
What is worming programme like?
What is milk urea if processor test?
What was bf and pr like this time last year?
Is dung soft or watery looking?
Is bf and pr going up or down?

Worm with Abflex during housing and nothing since
Don't test
Bf was 3.42 and pr 3.37
yes dung is soft and watery
Stay the same as last month

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Mine were the same a month ago.
Wormed and fluked 3 weeks after housing.
But they still didn't look quite right and dung watery in some of them.
Gave them all neoprinil pour on and milk is up and dung normal now. So must have been a problem.
Shine on them now too.

Does the Neoprinil have any withdrawal period?

Thanks for replies so far

jaymla627 · 29-07-2016 09:39AM

kowtow wrote: »

I think the point is that there is a sort of reverse leverage in effect for high solids cows when prices are low, particularly if concentrates are needed... just as there is leverage working against high input cows when grain is expensive.... it's not so much bare profitability - which is what everyone is aiming for- but the rate at which things become more or less profitable for a given change in feed or milk price, or in grass utilised (for example). These things are never linear, while every farm and every model has an optimal spot.. they also have different risks when things don't go quite as planned.

Very informative discussion.

Intresting crush point to be encountered by some large cross-breed herds this back-end, a nice few of these lads would of been off-loading a nice chunk of in-calf heifers for 1200-1400 euro the last few years would of given a nice injection of cash to get over the winter months , with milk price on the floor and a non-existent export market in England 700 euro will probably be their value this year if they can find buyers.....
With the reduced value of their culls simply culling late calvers/problem cows and bringing in more heifers isn't really a option, will put a nice squeeze on cashflow when combined with milk price being on the floor

pedigree 6 · 29-07-2016 10:32AM

Sillycave wrote: »

Does the Neoprinil have any withdrawal period?

No withdrawal. Ok for milking cows.
Does flies and lice and warbles as well.

blackdog1 · 29-07-2016 10:48AM

Sillycave wrote:

Forgive me but what do you mean by od figures? Cows produce on average for last year 3.61 bf & 3.48 pr Apologies nuts is 16% pr, Cr. Oil & Fat 3.5%, Cr. Fibre 10.5%, Cr. Ash 5.7%, Magenism 1.21% & Sodium 0.29% Composition is GM Maize, Barley, Field Beans, Soya (Bean) Hull, Distillers dried grains from Wheat, Wheatfeed, Palm Kernal

I'd take out the distillers, and palm kernel myself maybe the beans too. Add a bit of soya bean to bring it to 14% pr feed. Dawg will give you better advice. Maize, barley,wheat and soya hulls with a bit of soya bean if you want to up protein level in feed.

Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

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