Hostage situation in French church

NIMAN · 26-07-2016 06:43PM

The fact that one of the killers today was electronically tagged and known as a suspect leaves a lot of questions to be answered.

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 07:10PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

False dichotomy.

Opinion polls are placing Alain Juppé as most likely to become the next President. He's been the most popular right-wing politician in France for decades, and intends to contest the nomination.

Things can change fast.

No-one was considering Brexit very seriously until the result of the vote.
No-one was considering Trump a very serious contender at the Republican primary until it became obvious he had become unstoppable.

Rightly or wrongly, a majority of the population is seriously fed-up with the political establishment which has been leading the West since WW2 and promoting liberal and globalist ideas for most social and economic matters in the past few decades regardless of the party in charge (it started at different times depending on the countries).

3 types of insecurity feelings are now crystallising:
- financial and social insecurity has been growing for decades (see average unemployment rates in the Western world since the 70s as an indicator: constantly rising)
- cultural insecurity has been rowing in the past 10-15 years (more immigration and more multiculturalism has made many "locals" unsafe about their own cultural identity)
- and now actual physical insecurity in the past 2 or 3 years, rapidly rising in the past few months

Rjd2 · 26-07-2016 07:15PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Things can change fast.

No-one was considering Brexit very seriously until the result of the vote.
No-one was considering Trump a very serious contender at the Republican primary until it became obvious he had become unstoppable.

Rightly or wrongly, a majority of the population is seriously fed-up with the political establishment which has been leading the West since WW2 and promoting liberal and globalist ideas for most social and economic matters in the past few decades regardless of the party in charge (it started at different times depending on the countries).

3 types of insecurity feelings are now crystallising:
- financial and social insecurity has been growing for decades (see average unemployment rates in the Western world since the 70s as an indicator: constantly rising)
- cultural insecurity has been rowing in the past 10-15 years (more immigration and more multiculturalism has made many "locals" unsafe about their own cultural identity)
- and now actual physical insecurity in the past 2 or 3 years, rapidly rising in the past few months

The French have a slightly different sort of election which hurts Le Pen hugely. I wouldn't bet Le Pen with stolen money.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/23/opinions/shields-le-pen-election/

It will be Juppe or Nicolas Sarkozy who will win.

Widdershins · 26-07-2016 07:19PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I spent 4 days in Budapest last April and saw just one Middle-Eastern person on the streets. He had been walking in front of me before was stopped by police. I had double feeling about it, but they certainly have it under control.

I'm reminded of the other poster who's never seen a burqa worn in Ireland . Funny how timing influences our view of a situation .I guess you have to be there at the time .They have seen ugliness though . I hope you're right about it being under control there.

jmayo · 26-07-2016 07:20PM

France is crying out for a leader.
So is Germany, except they have this long sad habit of sticking until the bitter end with the ones they got however bad.

Britain needs a leader to guide them on some form of path after Brexit.
Instead they have gotten May who it appears is more interested in trying to screw future rivals.

And don't get me started on what the US looks like doing.

What is going to happen in France ?
Something has to give.

One thing that I want to watch is the reaction of muslim leaders, in France particularly.
They have to now stand up for once and show that fundamentalists do not speak in their name.
Their silence will only copper fasten the idea in some people's heads that they are all the enemy.

dav3 · 26-07-2016 07:28PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Yep. My friends in Hungary are sick and tired of it and I totally understand why their country called a halt to mass immigration. They have a good grasp of history there too.

We can't really take the Hungarian's word for it, their perception of what their muslim population is, is way off. Maybe they're not that bright, or maybe they're easily influenced by right wing populism, although the two usually do go hand in hand.

Similar to some people on here, see more than one middle eastern or dark skinned person in their town or village on the same day = we're being overrun.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/03/daily-chart-15

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2016/03/blogs/graphic-detail/20160326_woc936_1.png

RobertKK · 26-07-2016 07:31PM

Fr Jacques Hamel wrote last month the following:
"A time to be considerate of others, whoever they are. May we hear in those moments God's invitation to take care of this world to make it, where we live, warmer, more human, more fraternal"

Widdershins · 26-07-2016 07:32PM

dav3 wrote: »

We can't really take the Hungarian's word for it, their perception of what their muslim population is, is way off. Maybe they're not that bright, or maybe they're easily influenced by right wing populism, although the two usually do go hand in hand.

Similar to some people on here, see more than one middle eastern or dark skinned person in their town or village on the same day = we're being overrun.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/03/daily-chart-15

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2016/03/blogs/graphic-detail/20160326_woc936_1.png

I'll take their word, I know them to be intelligent and fairminded and as it happens some of them have dark skin too. I also respect Hungary's decision and don't share that opinion of them. Of course I respect that you're entitled to think whatever you want of Hungary .

Rezident · 26-07-2016 07:33PM

Ladies and gentlemen: Islam.

No need to read anything else about this. Continue as normal, their hatred remains futile.

Zxclnic · 26-07-2016 07:34PM

jmayo wrote: »

France is crying out for a leader.
So is Germany, except they have this long sad habit of sticking until the bitter end with the ones they got however bad.

Britain needs a leader to guide them on some form of path after Brexit.
Instead they have gotten May who it appears is more interested in trying to screw future rivals.

And don't get me started on what the US looks like doing.

What is going to happen in France ?
Something has to give.

One thing that I want to watch is the reaction of muslim leaders, in France particularly.
They have to now stand up for once and show that fundamentalists do not speak in their name.
Their silence will only copper fasten the idea in some people's heads that they are all the enemy.

Do you mean like the examples given below:
http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/arab-and-muslim-leaders-condemn-vile-terrorist-attack-nice-860788171
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/15/nice-france-muslim-leaders-are-heartsick-and-furious.html

Spanish Eyes · 26-07-2016 07:38PM

I will say it again.

Two fit young men chose to attempt to kill those elderly people in a Church saying their prayers. And they slashed the throat of the priest?

Sorry, they are just horrible. Bstards. Easy pickings. OMG.

Next it will be babies. They have no morals or compunction. Awful.

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 07:39PM

Rjd2 wrote: »

The French have a slightly different sort of election which hurts Le Pen hugely. I wouldn't bet Le Pen with stolen money.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/23/opinions/shields-le-pen-election/

It will be Juppe or Nicolas Sarkozy who will win.

I agree the electoral system is a huge barrier (she basically needs express approval of 50% of the electorate to be elected). But many things have happened since that article was written, and more are likely to happen.

I wouldn't bed on her as the top contender but I definitely wouldn't rule her out.

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 07:44PM

jmayo wrote: »

They have to now stand up for once and show that fundamentalists do not speak in their name.
Their silence will only copper fasten the idea in some people's heads that they are all the enemy.

Established old-fashioned Muslim leaders are slowly starting to do that.

The problems is Islam has no organised clergy and many youth are not listening to these leaders anymore, but rather to self-proclaimed Imams founded by the likes of Saudi Arabia. So whatever some leaders say, they are basically only representing themselves. I think for proper communication to happen between the "muslim community" and the rest of the population, they need to organise a hierarchical clergy and clearly define what their interpretation of Islam is.

jmayo · 26-07-2016 07:50PM

Zxclnic wrote: »

Do you mean like the examples given below:
http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/arab-and-muslim-leaders-condemn-vile-terrorist-attack-nice-860788171
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/15/nice-france-muslim-leaders-are-heartsick-and-furious.html

No I want them to demand every right thinking muslim, you know the ordinary law abiding peace loving ones that a lot around seem to know and keep telling us about, in France takes to the streets this weekend in organised protests in a determined stand to show they stand with other French people and not with islamists and fundamentalists.
They had to be banned from protesting against Charlie Hebdo cartoons, but I haven't heard much about them organising any other protests in light of what has happened since.

and yes i know there is no hierarchy as such and it is harder to try a top down approach.

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 07:51PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Established old-fashioned Muslim leaders are slowly starting to do that.

The problems is Islam has no organised clergy and many youth are not listening to these leaders anymore, but rather to self-proclaimed Imams founded by the likes of Saudi Arabia. So whatever some leaders say, they are basically only representing themselves. I think for proper communication to happen between the "muslim community" and the rest of the population, they need to organise a hierarchical clergy and clearly define they interpretation of Islam.

There was an oxford professor on Channel 4 that said that these ISIS terrorists don't listen to them. They listen only to the ISIS Imams on social media channels. These are not really the Saudi imams that you are talking about. Saudi does have radical imams but I read that they are in prison.

gw80 · 26-07-2016 07:51PM

dav3 wrote: »

We can't really take the Hungarian's word for it, their perception of what their muslim population is, is way off. Maybe they're not that bright, or maybe they're easily influenced by right wing populism, although the two usually do go hand in hand.

Similar to some people on here, see more than one middle eastern or dark skinned person in their town or village on the same day = we're being overrun.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/03/daily-chart-15

http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2016/03/blogs/graphic-detail/20160326_woc936_1.png

You are obsessed with "dark skin", in nearly every post you mention it, usually multiple times,
Not once on any of these types of threads have I read anybody say anything remotely close to anything like "I hate them because they are dark skinned"
It is you who keep referencing the colour of people's skin, you must be a closet racist yourself or its an underhanded way of calling other posters on here racists,

There are lots of brown skinned people in Europe, like the Spanish, where's all the hate for them, if it's just brown people everybody hates, there is none, it's the culture people dislike, they just happen to be brown,

26-07-2016 07:53PM

Thank god more people don't go to church or this could have been much worse

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 07:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Thank god more people don't go to church or this could have been much worse

oxymoron?

AlekSmart · 26-07-2016 07:55PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

That's it?
They're not at all bothered about us killing them and intervening in their countries?
All they are concerned with is destroying our way of life?

For a significant proportion of modern Islam,that statement is 100% correct.

This proportion,through the activities of it's many senior Clerics.who tend to provide the Oxygen of hatred upon which their supporters thrive,provide more than enough justification for a strong and very clear response,which luckily for Ireland,merely entails keeping Islamic immigration to a,very strictly vetted,minimum.

If blind adherence to the "Word of Allah"is prioritized,over and above,a desire to respect,integrate and assimilate into Western European culture,then these adherents need to be pointed in a different direction altogether.

Ireland has nothing to offer any collection of aggressive,disturbed,violent proponents of a form of long outated religious nonsense...Nothing.

It really is a very simple message..."Accept our culture,with all of it's many failings,integrate into and become part of our New Ireland",but if you want to retain your belief in elements of a religious structure which demonizes and threatens non-muslims,then pass on by...:(

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 07:56PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

These are not really the Saudi imams that you are talking about. Saudi does have radical imams but I read that they are in prison.

To my knowledge the Saudis are not that much sending imams. They are more funding mosques and picking local Imams for these mosques which follow their ideology.

26-07-2016 08:00PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Things can change fast.

No-one was considering Brexit very seriously until the result of the vote.
No-one was considering Trump a very serious contender at the Republican primary until it became obvious he had become unstoppable.

Ah now, people were certainly taking Brexit seriously prior to the result.

As it happens, the polls were wrong about Brexit, but that doesn't turn Probability Theory on its head. The French opinion polls show a strong sentiment in favour of Alain Juppé, and against Sarkozy and Le Pen.

This corresponds to most people's experiences of French politics. Juppé is a very popular politician, as well as being unambiguously right wing. This is a very rare thing in French politics, especially for a former PM; the last man to fit that bill was Jacques Chirac.

If Juppe gets the nomination, he will be the next French President. Mark my words. Feel free to requote this post in 2017 and force me to eat my hat if I am wrong. Juppé to win, Le Pen to end her career in disappointment, just like her father.

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 08:01PM

Bob24 wrote: »

To my knowledge the Saudis are not that much sending imams. They are more funding mosques and picking local Imams for these mosques which follow their ideology.

Possible. But saudi funded ideology is conservative but not about violence against the west and the arab governments. They go out of their way to preach against that especially after 911. The threat comes from the radical imams that have no ties to any state funded mosques.

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 08:04PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

For a significant proportion of modern Islam,that statement is 100% correct.

(

I cannot fathom how it can be correct?
You are suggesting that they are not concerned one iota that we are killing them, they are not fazed at all and all that they are concerned with is destroying our way of life?

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 08:07PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Possible. But saudi funded ideology is conservative but not about violence against the west and the arab governments. They go out of their way to preach against that especially after 911. The threat comes from the radical imams that have no ties to any state funded mosques.

I think it is a mix of both.

Wahhabism is not exactly very tolerant. And once you believe in an ideology basically telling you everything about the country you live in is wrong and goes against god's will, you are more easily transitioned to the violent stage.

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 08:13PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

I cannot fathom how it can be correct?
You are suggesting that they are not concerned one iota that we are killing them, they are not fazed at all and all that they are concerned with is destroying our way of life?

One day, in Afghanistan.
Ahmed: "Allah Akbar! The Americans killed my whole family with an airstrike."
Mohammad: "What will you do, oh Ahmed?"
Ahmed: "Never mind, it's okay."

A few days later:
Mohammad: "Hey Ahmad, you hear the Irish legalized the gay marriage?"
Ahmed: "Bloody Infidels. I will make suicide bomb against them!"

Sounds ridiculous to suggest that people will shrug off a foreign entity killing them yet be prepared to sacrifice their life to kill their citizens because of something like legalization of gay marriage.

Moo Moo Land · 26-07-2016 08:15PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Things can change fast.
No-one was considering Brexit very seriously until the result of the vote.
No-one was considering Trump a very serious contender at the Republican primary until it became obvious he had become unstoppable.

Rightly or wrongly, a majority of the population is seriously fed-up with the political establishment which has been leading the West since WW2 and promoting liberal and globalist ideas for most social and economic matters in the past few decades regardless of the party in charge (it started at different times depending on the countries).

3 types of insecurity feelings are now crystallising:
- financial and social insecurity has been growing for decades (see average unemployment rates in the Western world since the 70s as an indicator: constantly rising)
- cultural insecurity has been rowing in the past 10-15 years (more immigration and more multiculturalism has made many "locals" unsafe about their own cultural identity)
- and now actual physical insecurity in the past 2 or 3 years, rapidly rising in the past few months

Yes things can change scarily fast. History shows that. 17,000,000 people were killed in 1914-1918 when a minor royal was killed in Bosnia.

Trump said he would "cut the head off" ISIS (whatever that means). It's clear now that the interests of ISIS and the Trump campaign are now perfectly aligned. Fear is always the would-be tyrant’s greatest ally. A major terror attack in the USA between now and November could make him president. And trust me, Trump is the last person the world needs to fight ISIS.

foggy_lad · 26-07-2016 08:18PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

For a significant proportion of modern Islam,that statement is 100% correct.

This proportion,through the activities of it's many senior Clerics.who tend to provide the Oxygen of hatred upon which their supporters thrive,provide more than enough justification for a strong and very clear response,which luckily for Ireland,merely entails keeping Islamic immigration to a,very strictly vetted,minimum.

If blind adherence to the "Word of Allah"is prioritized,over and above,a desire to respect,integrate and assimilate into Western European culture,then these adherents need to be pointed in a different direction altogether.

Ireland has nothing to offer any collection of aggressive,disturbed,violent proponents of a form of long outated religious nonsense...Nothing.

It really is a very simple message..."Accept our culture,with all of it's many failings,integrate into and become part of our New Ireland",but if you want to retain your belief in elements of a religious structure which demonizes and threatens non-muslims,then pass on by...:(

If only it were as simple as integrate or there is no place for you here, just like the UK and other countries where most of the initial intake of refugees and migrants happily integrated and became British etc the 2nd 3rd and subsequent generations are not as welcoming of western societies. this is due to how they have been thought in their own Muslim schools many of which are funded and ran by extremists and fundamental Islamic preachers from the middle east.

Even here we just have to look to the leader of the Mosque on Clonskeagh who although has lived in Ireland for over 20 years will never be seen talking to anyone in English.

Moo Moo Land · 26-07-2016 08:25PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Even here we just have to look to the leader of the Mosque on Clonskeagh who although has lived in Ireland for over 20 years will never be seen talking to anyone in English.

I know people in Ireland who have never talked to anyone in Irish.
Our cultural native language!

foggy_lad · 26-07-2016 08:30PM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

I know people in Ireland who have never talked to anyone in Irish.
Our cultural native language!

How many Public Figures/Priests/Rabbis etc who have been here for 20+ years do you know who refuse to speak in Public in English?

Moo Moo Land · 26-07-2016 08:31PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

How many Public Figures/Priests/Rabbis etc who have been here for 20+ years do you know who refuse to speak in Public in English?

You tell me. I have no idea. It doesn't bother me.

Hostage situation in French church

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