Hostage situation in French church

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 02:41PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Amazing they know so much about the attackers in a matter of hours. Let me guess, they brought their ID's with them on a suicide mission.

Not sure what you are trying to say?

One of them was wearing an electronic monitoring tag and had a police file. It means surveillance failed, but it obviously made it pretty easy to identify him and get his criminal history instantly.

Skylinehead · 26-07-2016 02:41PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What about when people criticize the Westboro Baptist Church? Why is that ok? It's a religion, right?

You can criticize a groups actions no bother. It's blanket statements like "all x are y" that cause a problem. Of course, there's also subgroups. ISIS are Sunni Muslims, so statements that denigrate all Muslims, such as the Shia, are no different to statements that denigrate all Christians when it's just the WBC.

Butters1979 · 26-07-2016 02:41PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Entirely irrelevant though. Sectarianism, racism, equally bad. You can't justify it by saying "it's not racism".

But you can accuse someone of racism even though it's incorrect? That's ok is it?

And I'd argue racisms is far worse. 'Religious sectarianism' to be exact can have an argument. If you don't like a certain religion because what it preaches it is reasonable.

beach_walker · 26-07-2016 02:42PM

HensVassal wrote: »

Amazing they know so much about the attackers in a matter of hours. Let me guess, they brought their ID's with them on a suicide mission.

So you're of the false-flag opinion on the matter then?

Saipanne · 26-07-2016 02:43PM

More likely to choke on a peanut, guys. By comparison, ISIS are a bothersome fly. Statistically speaking, of course.

enricoh · 26-07-2016 02:44PM

So you take these guys fleeing a war into your country, house them n give them welfare at huge cost and in return they do they're best to wreck the place - kill a few and scare all the tourists away n have the locals afraid to go for a pint or a meal
Sounds idyllic

RustyNut · 26-07-2016 02:46PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

But you can accuse someone of racism even though it's incorrect? That's ok is it?

And I'd argue racisms is far worse. 'Religious sectarianism' to be exact can have an argument. If you don't like a certain religion because what it preaches it is reasonable.

Yea cos a little 'Religious sectarianism' never caused any problems here or in europe. :rolleyes:

dissed doc · 26-07-2016 02:47PM

Musketeer4 wrote: »

I can bet my bottom dollar that the gunman was male and in his 20s.

When it's confirmed, my point is proven.
Someone here compared my proposal to internment. I guess it is not far off the mark but extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

I don't see why this demographic cannot be retained in the refugee camps within their countries of origin while letting women, the young and the old to flee. It takes the pressure off the refugee camps to allow the women and children to leave and it also ensures that the high risk demographic are kept under control. It is safer for the women and the young/elderly too because there is a phenomenal propensity for sexual crimes amongst middle eastern men.

I think the countries neighbouring ISIS controlled lands have a lot to answer for with regard to not keeping tight borders and preventing the outflow of dangerous individuals. If needs be I think gateway countries such as turkey should be making the borders a no-go zone. High fences, walls and I think even extensive minefields should be considered in hot spots if the situation calls for it.

I am not so sure - I think you will find that the gunman was a mentally ill loner inspired by far-right groups because goddammit that is the framework of all social policy in the German constitution and there is no fighting in the war room!!

As an aside - will violence and Islam become a topic of criticism, as much paedophilia and Catholicism? Or was the latter just an agenda.

Inherent to Islam is Jihad. These attacks are jihad.

Where is Peter Sutherland? Where is Ali Selim?

Bob24 · 26-07-2016 02:47PM

One man arrested by the police in relation with the attack. No details yet on what he is suspected of.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 26-07-2016 02:50PM

RobertKK wrote: »

In Nigeria and some middle eastern countries this has been a common situation, attack on Catholic Churches including blowing them up.

Probably one reason the police are making sure there are no explosive devices in the church.

The Vatican is a target according to ISIS, they have airport security to get into Vatican City. The problem is the ordinary churches elsewhere are unable to provide a high level of security.

I just hope this isn't just the start of attacks on churches in Europe.

They released a video last year of two of their operatives strolling around St Peter's Basilica posing as tourists. It would be the ultimate prize to these bastards.

Maybe for their protection the Vatican should introduce a rule like they have in Mecca.

FA Hayek · 26-07-2016 02:50PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Entirely irrelevant though. Sectarianism, racism, equally bad. You can't justify it by saying "it's not racism".

Of course its relevant. One can choose not to be a Muslim (well in the West anyway, not so lucky to choose in the Middle East). You cannot choose your race.

Bubbaclaus · 26-07-2016 02:51PM

Saipanne wrote: »

Yeah, just like you dodging your little "disposal" argument earlier.

What did I dodge? I stood by it at the time and stand buy it now. We were discussing a separate issue now however so you should move on.

The King of Moo · 26-07-2016 02:51PM

[QUOTE=enricoh;100477536]So you take these guys fleeing a war into your country, house them n give them welfare at huge cost and in return they do they're best to wreck the place - kill a few and scare all the tourists away n have the locals afraid to go for a pint or a meal
Sounds idyllic[/QUOTE]

Except when they're born in your country and want to flee to go to the war.

Which is a problem which needs deep investigation of course, but why are so many people going on about refugees when the one attacker who's been identified is French?

Bubbaclaus · 26-07-2016 02:54PM

FalconGirl wrote: »

The bleeding heart liberals are going to get people killed.

Pretty distressing situation when refusing to blame and punish 1.6 billion muslims for the actions of a small number of radicals makes you a 'bleeding heart liberal'

Samaris · 26-07-2016 02:55PM

dissed doc wrote: »

I am not so sure - I think you will find that the gunman was a mentally ill loner inspired by far-right groups because goddammit that is the framework of all social policy in the German constitution and there is no fighting in the war room!!

Look, much as the left-wing people in here have reasonable points, the right-wing people also have reasonable points. But I think we both know that there are legitimate ISIS attacks (as this one appears to be), and there are mentally ill people like Somboly who was indeed somewhat influenced by Breivik (or so it appears), and also had a specific plan of vengeance against those he felt were bullying him. That -he- was Muslim is actually completely irrelevant.

You do your arguments a disservice by choosing poor examples. You may as well try to link in the awful attack in Japan as link in Somboly, because he was not a Islamic jihadist. He was a very sick teenager.

Half of this whole ongoing row over many threads at this stage is the extreme opinions blasting off, a bunch of other people spending time refuting them rather than speaking from their own point of view and then people splitting into..trenches as someone put it a few days ago.

This is not helpful.

Virgil° · 26-07-2016 02:57PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

You can criticize a groups actions no bother. It's blanket statements like "all x are y" that cause a problem. Of course, there's also subgroups. ISIS are Sunni Muslims, so statements that denigrate all Muslims, such as the Shia, are no different to statements that denigrate all Christians when it's just the WBC.

I don't think I've seen many, if any, examples of people saying "All Muslims are <insert something derogatory here>" on this thread or others like it.
Certainly NOTHING close to the avalanche of replies calling denegrators of Islam(not Muslims) racists,bigots, xenophobes etc....

But here's one for you : All Muslims, by definition, follow, to a greater or lesser degree, the tenets of Islam.
Islam is at the very least a problematic set of ideas and doctrines that do not integrate fluidly with modern Western secular humanist ideals. Acts like the ones in this thread and others of its kin are becoming too common to be written off as coincidence and or politically motivated attacks, poor upbringing, bullying, lack of opportunity, mental illness. There's a common thread in most/nearly all of them. And that is Islam. This has to be talked about.

If it turns out not to be the case here then fair enough.

kowloon · 26-07-2016 02:58PM

conorhal wrote: »

Multiculturalism in Libworld:

Too much Fox News?

Butters1979 · 26-07-2016 02:59PM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Pretty distressing situation when refusing to blame and punish 1.6 billion muslims for the actions of a small number of radicals makes you a 'bleeding heart liberal'

Punish how? Insisting they stay in their own country or safe country with a similar culture (Turkey, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Bahrain, Pakistan, Indonesia) instead of bringing them over here for free money and easy targets?

Bubbaclaus · 26-07-2016 03:03PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Punish how? Insisting they stay in their own country or safe country with a similar culture (Turkey, Egypt, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Bahrain, Pakistan, Indonesia) instead of bringing them over here for free money and easy targets?

Zidane will have to give up his Real Madrid managerial position to become manager of Saudi Arabia

Fred Swanson · 26-07-2016 03:07PM

This post has been deleted.

RobertKK · 26-07-2016 03:09PM

Fr Jacques Hamel was standing in for the parish priest who was on holidays. Fr Hamel was the deputy priest in the parish. The priest who is on holidays is returning home, and he must be of very mixed feelings, knowing it could have been him and a sense of inner relief combined with the absolute horror and maybe even guilt at what happened Fr Hamel.

fed up sick and tired · 26-07-2016 03:11PM

dav3 wrote: »

How many more times what?

How many more times do people like you have to have the distinction drawn for them ?

Butters1979 · 26-07-2016 03:12PM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Zidane will have to give up his Real Madrid managerial position to become manager of Saudi Arabia

Oh here's the holocaust guy again with bizarre tangents, ignoring the fact I'm talking about stopping future immigration to avoid making this problem worse than it already is to spout more hyperbole.

And I'll be as clear as I can. I am not talking about deporting any Muslims. I do not believe this will resolve the issue.
But I believe continuing to let a million Muslim migrants a year into Europe will continue to make it worse. I'll refer you to a previous post.

Butters1979 wrote: »

We've gone over this before. If the attackers are part of the latest wave of refugees or 2nd or 3rd or 20th generation doesn't matter. We have a huge problem already in Europe, allowing a million more in a year makes it worse. Stopping the immigration doesn't solve it, it just makes it a little less bad.

Before you accuse me of trying to throw Zidane in a concentration camp.

Skylinehead · 26-07-2016 03:15PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Of course its relevant. One can choose not to be a Muslim (well in the West anyway, not so lucky to choose in the Middle East). You cannot choose your race.

You can choose that yes, but it's hardly easy. They're indoctrinated from birth, brainwashed even.

Bubbaclaus · 26-07-2016 03:15PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Oh here's the holocaust guy again with bizarre tangents, ignoring the fact I'm talking about stopping future immigration to avoid making this problem worse than it already is to spout more hyperbole.

And I'll be as clear as I can. I am not talking about deporting any Muslims. I do not believe this will resolve the issue.
But I believe continuing to let a million Muslim migrants a year into Europe will continue to make it worse. I'll refer you to a previous post.

Before you accuse me of trying to throw Zidane in a concentration camp.

As everyone can clearly see, you responded to my post where I was referring to all muslims, not just incoming refugees.

So you are the one gone off on a tangent. Settle down.

Bubbaclaus · 26-07-2016 03:16PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

You can choose that yes, but it's hardly easy. They're indoctrinated from birth, brainwashed even.

All religions are the same in that respect.

listermint · 26-07-2016 03:18PM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

All religions are the same in that respect.

Boom, knowledge Bomb!!!

26-07-2016 03:20PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They do. There's about 1.5 million Syrian refugees in Lebanon. and almost 5 million registered as refugees in Jordan.

The fact that they're pouring into Arabic countries with liberal traditions, and fleeing countries controlled by ISIS and Wahabbis should be somewhat comforting.

listermint · 26-07-2016 03:20PM

We should be trying to extinguish religion from all facets of Governance including education outside of a 'here look this is what religion is' class.

It does nothing but legitimise the divide between humans across the planet.

The sooner starfleet gets together the better.

kowloon · 26-07-2016 03:22PM

Actually surprised that attacks on churches aren't a common thing already. Seems like the place to start if you;re looking to start a religious war.

Hostage situation in French church

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