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All-Ireland motorway network.. sound familiar?

  • 25-07-2016 8:13pm
    #1
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭


    So IBEC and Northern Irelands equivalent have released the below report:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/all-ireland-motorway-cost-2894064-Jul2016/

    Basically states that by 2050 there will be approx 10 million people on this island and they want 85% of the population to be near a motorway.
    Now, I seem to remember the Atlantic corridor idea about 10 years ago..? Which more or less guaranteed a motorway from letterkenny to Rosslare.
    And yet cork and limerick is still served by that death trap of a road.
    Would it not be more beneficial just completing the Atlantic corridor and using the remaining money to invest in getting more jobs in the north west?
    Also, I wonder how much the motorist would be fleeced when it comes to the tolls that will inevitably be placed on them.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Voodoomelon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Voodoomelon


    Who designs and builds our major roads? Are they companies from outside Ireland?


  • #3
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Voodoomelon wrote: »
    Who designs and builds our major roads? Are they companies from outside Ireland?

    Not too sure actually, but wasn't the Waterford-Dublin motorway done by a Spanish group?


  • #4
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,513 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    IT would go to tender usually. Usually they're public/private partnerships.


  • #5
    CIP4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,657 ✭✭✭CIP4


    Bam and sisk do a lot of the motorways in Ireland as well as a lot of the building work. They are both big companies that operate internationally. Bam is a German company that bought out ascon years ago and that's how they got into Ireland. Sisk have headquarters in Ireland with a yearly turnover of over 1 billion euro a year Bam even more. I think some of the bigger motorways they partner up on or take sections.


  • #6
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    For everyone outside the pale it would be a blessing I think
    Motorway to Galway was finished only a few years ago, ffs..

    ?width=380&version=2891206


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  • #7
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Id agree Biko, even the Galway bypass isn't going to plan from what I'm seeing.
    A decent dual carriageway from tuam to letterkenny and get business to locate in the north west so that they have good road access to the rest of the island would be a good start.
    Then cork to limerick as it's ludicrous that the nations 2nd and 3rd largest cities are connected by a road from the middle ages..


  • #8
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    There are so many issues with transport in this country but this would go a long way to reducing the need for dominance of Dublin over the rest of the island. Get the motorways in, drop broadband cables as you go. Convenient transport will open up more regions.

    Having said that Dublin also needs more public transport even at its current size never mind that it is expanding


  • #9
    mikeecho
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Voodoomelon wrote: »
    Who designs and builds our major roads? Are they companies from outside Ireland?

    Whoever built the new flyovers on the N40, shouldn't build any more roads.

    Flooding on an incline, and lots of subsidence


  • #10
    moleyv
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭moleyv


    The NRA or whatever they call themselves have regional design offices. So they might design, they might tender it out.

    As mentioned sisk and BAM are two of the bigger players, and huge projects might be joint projects. Or subcontract bridges out to specialists etc.

    The tendering is open to all EU, so you often see foreign companies. Wasn't there an Italian company offered to pay for and build the limerick - cork motorway a couple of years ago. Not sure of the exact details but I'd happily pay a toll for that.

    You actually see a lot of NI companies doing the smaller stuff like resurfacing and realignment.


  • #11
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Never going to happen.

    You may get a Galway Dublin and a Limerick Cork motorway.
    Maybe even a Wexford Cork motorway, but the rest of thesw plans has a much chance as the other transport plans that various ministers have trotted out over the last 20 year.


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  • #12
    skywanderer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 334 ✭✭skywanderer


    I think someone in IBEC got the job of writing a report, got lazy, logged onto boards and stole my idea from two months ago.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057611075/2?


  • #13
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    IT would go to tender usually. Usually they're public/private partnerships.

    Tax payers fund it with some mention of EU funded then private company funds a tiny bit a toll is erected and money machine for government and private company reap the benefits for ever more


  • #14
    jacksie66
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


  • #15
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The report doesn't mention this but is the 100e just for people south of the border or does it include the north as well. Curious.
    If its us who are expected to fund the norths roads then I cant say id agree with it.


  • #16
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,630 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    eeguy wrote:
    You may get a Galway Dublin and a Limerick Cork motorway. Maybe even a Wexford Cork motorway, but the rest of thesw plans has a much chance as the other transport plans that various ministers have trotted out over the last 20 year.

    They can hardly afford to do it all at one time. It makes sense to find out where there needs to be a motorway, draw up all the plans for all those roads and pick the 10% that they can actually built right now. Sounds reasonable enough


  • #17
    ofcork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,426 ✭✭✭ofcork


    Wasnt it a turkish company gama who built the ballincollig bypass.


  • #18
    hi5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,107 ✭✭✭hi5


    Isn't there a plan for a motorway from Drogheda to Kilcullen, circling Dublin, I don't see it on that map.

    Wheres the joined up thinking when you need it?

    http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/m45/m45.html


  • #19
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    Work on the M20 must be imminent now that CCC/NRA have spent millions rebuilding the 2+1 section south of Mallow


  • #20
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    mikeecho wrote: »
    Whoever built the new flyovers on the N40, shouldn't build any more roads.

    Flooding on an incline, and lots of subsidence
    A flyover of Roscommon would be nice.


  • #21
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    Work on the M20 must be imminent now that CCC/NRA have spent millions rebuilding the 2+1 section south of Mallow

    Id be surprised if they gave the go ahead to that motorway before the end of the decade.
    Should have been built years ago.


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  • #22
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    bear1 wrote: »
    Id be surprised if they gave the go ahead to that motorway before the end of the decade.
    Should have been built years ago.

    I won't get to drive it before my driving years run out, North Cork really got screwed , what a waste building the M7 and M8 when the M7 and M20 would have done the same job cheaper.


  • #23
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Voodoomelon wrote: »
    Who designs and builds our major roads? Are they companies from outside Ireland?

    It's put to tender and usually a consortium bids for it and gets it. For example, the M17/M18 Gort-Tuam is being built by DirectRoute, which is comprised of the companies listed here: http://directroutegorttotuam.ie/aboutus.aspx
    bear1 wrote: »
    Id agree Biko, even the Galway bypass isn't going to plan from what I'm seeing.
    A decent dual carriageway from tuam to letterkenny and get business to locate in the north west so that they have good road access to the rest of the island would be a good start.
    Then cork to limerick as it's ludicrous that the nations 2nd and 3rd largest cities are connected by a road from the middle ages..

    N6 Galway City Transport Project is going to the compulsory purchase order stage next (www.n6galwaycity.ie), it's not called the bypass anymore due to the unwanted attention it attracted.

    The N17 after the M17 is built is to be built in pieces: Tuam-Claremorris, Knock-Tobercurry, Tobercurry Bypass & Tobercurry-Collooney. It will be built as a basic dual carraigeway, 2 lanes in each direction seperated by a central barrier, no hard shoulders. The Claremorris/Knock bypass may be retrofitted as well.

    The M20 is likely to be split into sections after the feasability study is completed on the Mallow Relief Road scheme this year. If it had been split into sections 5 years ago parts of it may be done by now.
    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    There are so many issues with transport in this country but this would go a long way to reducing the need for dominance of Dublin over the rest of the island. Get the motorways in, drop broadband cables as you go. Convenient transport will open up more regions.

    Having said that Dublin also needs more public transport even at its current size never mind that it is expanding

    Dublin needs Metro North & DART Underground along with expansion of the DART electrification pronto. But instead it's better to build a motorway around Enniscorthy so people from Wexford can drive to Dublin faster and create even more congestion.
    mikeecho wrote: »
    Whoever built the new flyovers on the N40, shouldn't build any more roads.

    Flooding on an incline, and lots of subsidence

    That was SIAC construction. They went into receivership before the project was finished, but I think they're floating again.
    savagethegoat wrote: »
    Work on the M20 must be imminent now that CCC/NRA have spent millions rebuilding the 2+1 section south of Mallow

    The 2+1 section rebuild is nothing more than window dressing. It was unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. Especially considering the existing road south of the Burnfort turnoff will be used as part of the actual M20 motorway. Everything south of the Burnfort turnoff to Cork will use the existing road with a parallel single carraigeway built to service properties & accesses along the route.
    bear1 wrote: »
    Id be surprised if they gave the go ahead to that motorway before the end of the decade.
    Should have been built years ago.

    The M20 will be built as soon as Fianna Fail get into power, in my opinion. With a Corkman in charge, it will be a big vote getter in the area, it's importance is completely underestimated by the current group of geniuses. It's the key to the future of the economy of North Cork, and the current shower have no intention whatsoever of building it. They won't even build the ready to go Macroom bypass, ready to go Dunkettle interchange, or build the road with the highest return on investment in the whole country, the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy motorway (which is partially funded by Europe).


  • #24
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    "The 2+1 section rebuild is nothing more than window dressing. It was unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. Especially considering the existing road south of the Burnfort turnoff will be used as part of the actual M20 motorway. Everything south of the Burnfort turnoff to Cork will use the existing road with a parallel single carraigeway built to service properties & accesses along the route".


    I think you are incorrect there. From memory, the Motorway was intended to use the existing route to just short of Rathduff (in the vicinity of the Railway bridge) and will then use a new alignment via the vicinity of Oliver's Cross East of Mallow.

    I agree it's a huge waste of money rebuilding the discredited 2+1 section. However the latest proposal talks of an uprated N20, so you might be close to the eventual truth, minus the parallel road which would be unnecessary if it was not a motorway


  • #25
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    The issue with the Galway "bypass" is the flyover everyone is pissing themselves over.
    I read that only recently the Councillors realised the issue of the M6 roundabout before Ballybrit.
    Can you imagine the nightmare it will be at that roundabout coming from the M6 is there wouldn't a flyover??
    I hope you're right though


  • #26
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..?
    Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #27
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..?
    Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...

    yes we do, the current road is unsafe in places and isn't suitable to be widened so a new alignment is needed north of Rathduff.

    Why would you think a motorway from the 2nd to the 3rd City is less important than the road to Ringaskiddy?


  • #28
    bear1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,844 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..?
    Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...

    If they can build a motorway from Limerick to Galway or Waterford to Kilkenny then why not Cork to Limerick?
    The road is a death trap and it should be built.
    Build the bypasses anyway.
    Before the Galway to Dublin motorway was opened the built the Loughrea bypass which is still useful today even with the motorway 10km away so I don't see that as a valid point.


  • #29
    moleyv
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭moleyv


    Markcheese wrote:
    Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..? Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...


    I take it you don't use the road. There needs to be teleportation from charleville past buttevant.

    A 1 hour 20 min journey for me can easily have an hour added due to traffic.


  • #30
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    Buttevant has been a huge pothole for well over a year now... Mallow and Charleville are big bottlenecks too.

    Just one life saved by building the M20 would make it worthwhile


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  • #31
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Weren't the CPOs already done for the M20? They should start work on the bypasses for small towns at the very least.

    Another issue is a lack of a proper North Ring Road in Cork - did anything happen there? I remember seeing plans.


  • #32
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    "The 2+1 section rebuild is nothing more than window dressing. It was unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. Especially considering the existing road south of the Burnfort turnoff will be used as part of the actual M20 motorway. Everything south of the Burnfort turnoff to Cork will use the existing road with a parallel single carraigeway built to service properties & accesses along the route".


    I think you are incorrect there. From memory, the Motorway was intended to use the existing route to just short of Rathduff (in the vicinity of the Railway bridge) and will then use a new alignment via the vicinity of Oliver's Cross East of Mallow.

    I agree it's a huge waste of money rebuilding the discredited 2+1 section. However the latest proposal talks of an uprated N20, so you might be close to the eventual truth, minus the parallel road which would be unnecessary if it was not a motorway

    I think they were planing on going south from the Burnfort junction but if they changed their plans after the last documents I read (which were ~2009), then you are correct. I was never sure what they were going to do with Rathduff, it sounds almost like they wanted to "Kilmacanogue" it.

    This will go ahead as motorway only, the 'N20 upgrades' are just mistaken.
    bear1 wrote: »
    The issue with the Galway "bypass" is the flyover everyone is pissing themselves over.
    I read that only recently the Councillors realised the issue of the M6 roundabout before Ballybrit.
    Can you imagine the nightmare it will be at that roundabout coming from the M6 is there wouldn't a flyover??
    I hope you're right though

    Not sure what flyover this is. Don't forget that there will be 2 tunnels on the Galway bypass too, one under the racecourse and one under a patch of limestone that can't be disturbed. Also a big viaduct over the River Corrib.
    Markcheese wrote: »
    Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..?
    Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...

    Yes we do. There's a motorway being built from Galway to Tuam, and one is nearly finished from Galway to Limerick. Add to that a motorway from Dublin to Wexford where there is a motorway to Waterford already, and there's a motorway being built a good chunk of the way from Waterford to Wexford.

    It's actually the other way around. The Dunkettle (2018 start), Macroom BP (2020 start) and M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (2020 start) are being done first. M20 planning isn't started so wouldn't be ready to go until 2020/2021 anyway.
    savagethegoat wrote: »
    yes we do, the current road is unsafe in places and isn't suitable to be widened so a new alignment is needed north of Rathduff.

    Why would you think a motorway from the 2nd to the 3rd City is less important than the road to Ringaskiddy?

    In fairness, traffic levels on the N28 between Carr's Hill and Carrigaline are ~23/24k per day. That's not sustainable for the road in existance, and needs a bad upgrade. Contrast that with traffic levels on parts of the M8/M9 which are barely 10k.
    moleyv wrote: »
    I take it you don't use the road. There needs to be teleportation from charleville past buttevant.

    A 1 hour 20 min journey for me can easily have an hour added due to traffic.

    It would be 45 minutes with the M20 in place. Now it's upto 2 hours, and that's not on a Friday evening or when there's a Munster match on.
    zilog_jones wrote: »
    Weren't the CPOs already done for the M20? They should start work on the bypasses for small towns at the very least.

    Another issue is a lack of a proper North Ring Road in Cork - did anything happen there? I remember seeing plans.

    I believe a small amount were done, but I'm not too sure. There's plans for a North Ring Road in Cork alright, split into two sections, east and west. The eastern section, from around Killeens to the M8 near Glanmire was part of the M20 scheme that was suspended in 2011 (this scheme included the full M20 mainline, an Adare BP and the North Ring Road east - was a bit big to proceed alright at the time). The western section, from the proposed M20/North Ring junction to the Poulavone roundabout in Ballincollig is still suspended.


  • #33
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Did I say leave the road as it is ??
    No , it's in need of serious upgrade, but the difference between say 500million to upgrade and bypass and 1.5 billion to build a whole new motorway could be decades of waiting ....
    (Figures pulled out to make an example i've no idea how much either would be)
    We have a fixation with motorways to everywhere ... i'd wonder how long it'd last if we had to pay economic or even french levels of tolls... sure you can use the new m20 but it'll cost 20 quid each way.. motorway to mallow,
    motorway to killarney
    Motorway to waterford
    Motorway to carrigaline/ringaskiddy
    What about skibb and bantry ,awful road too.
    And thats just cork, there's25 other counties ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #34
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Did I say leave the road as it is ??
    No , it's in need of serious upgrade, but the difference between say 500million to upgrade and bypass and 1.5 billion to build a whole new motorway could be decades of waiting ....
    (Figures pulled out to make an example i've no idea how much either would be)
    We have a fixation with motorways to everywhere ... i'd wonder how long it'd last if we had to pay economic or even french levels of tolls... sure you can use the new m20 but it'll cost 20 quid each way.. motorway to mallow,
    motorway to killarney
    Motorway to waterford
    Motorway to carrigaline/ringaskiddy
    What about skibb and bantry ,awful road too.
    And thats just cork, there's25 other counties ...
    The price tag on the M20 would be around 600/700 million. That doesn't include the North Ring Rd east element.

    That's not much cheaper than bypasses for Mallow Buttevant and Charleville, and realignment of the entire road from Croom to Mallow. And with the motorway, you get a high speed link between two major economic hubs instead of a cart track.

    Cork needs a M20 to Limerick, an M22 to Macroom, an M25 to Youghal, an M28 to Ringaskiddy and a M71 to around Halfway. The existing roads are dangerous and slow. Traffic from Cork to Tralee, Limerick, Killarney, Waterford, Ringaskiddy, Bandon etc has to move at an average speed of 50-70km/h while traffic out of Dublin can move at 120km/h. That's a major issue.


  • #35
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    you ruin the case for a M20 project by saying that Cork needs a Motorway to some of these places.

    The road to Halfway is not too bad and actually excellent in places, and definitely doesn't need to be motorway.

    The road to Youghal is mainly good but needs tweeking and a Castlematyr/Killeagh bypass.

    The Ringaskiddy road needs improving, in places, but doesn't need a Motorway surely.

    On the other hand, Cork to Limerick needs a major inter-urban road as a priority. It's in a different league to the other roads you name, as is a full or partial ring road for the City


  • #36
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    you ruin the case for a M20 project by saying that Cork needs a Motorway to some of these places.

    The road to Halfway is not too bad and actually excellent in places, and definitely doesn't need to be motorway.

    The road to Youghal is mainly good but needs tweeking and a Castlematyr/Killeagh bypass.

    The Ringaskiddy road needs improving, in places, but doesn't need a Motorway surely.

    On the other hand, Cork to Limerick needs a major inter-urban road as a priority. It's in a different league to the other roads you name, as is a full or partial ring road for the City
    When I say motorway I mean a Type 1 Dual Carraigeway. Which in Ireland consists of 2 3.5m running lanes, 2x 2.5m hard shoulders and a concrete central median, small or compact grade seperated junctions. These could also be left with green signs but why not designate them motorway and keep cyclists, pedestrians and horse and carts off these strategic routes.

    I'm not on about the M1/M4/M7 with 3.75m running lanes, and 15m wide grass medians. I'm talking about proper, future proof roads, rather than like the South Ring having to come back in 10/15 years and upgrade them again. The South Ring has had 200m worth of upgrades done to it in the last 10 years and now needs another major upgrade at Dunkettle. The Ringaskiddy road was upgraded from Carrs Hill to the South Ring in the early 90s and now it needs to be upgraded again. This isn't right, having to re-upgrade roads.

    The N71 to Halfway is decent, but there's a dodgy section of dual carraigeway sandwiched between two single carriageway sections, and also the traffic levels are around 20k, which are above the limit for a single carriageway. There's also need for an Inishannon bypass further west.

    The road to Youghal needs to be a motorway grade dual carraigeway with bypasses of Castlemartyer & Killeagh.

    Dublin has a motorway to Ashbourne, a motorway to Kells and a motorway most of the way to Wexford. Why does Cork have to run 20k+ daily traffic roads on goat tracks?


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  • #37
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    The traffic levels on some of those roads are almost entirely rush hour traffic.

    Trying to piggyback these roads on to the need for an M20 can only harm the chances of the M20 being built
    Lots of places need upgrades and bypasses.


  • #38
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    The traffic levels on some of those roads are almost entirely rush hour traffic.

    Trying to piggyback these roads on to the need for an M20 can only harm the chances of the M20 being built
    Lots of places need upgrades and bypasses.
    Wrong. I often drive on the N22 from Macroom to Cork at weekend times and the effective speed of the traffic is around 70km/h because there's a queue stuck behind a truck and no overtaking opportunities because of the large volume of oncoming traffic.


  • #39
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    that goes for pretty nearly every N road in the country, it doesn't make it a case for a Motorway. Try the N72 or the N24 for instance.

    I kind of figured you'd be a user of the roads you mention!


  • #40
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    marno21 wrote:
    Wrong. I often drive on the N22 from Macroom to Cork at weekend times and the effective speed of the traffic is around 70km/h because there's a queue stuck behind a truck and no overtaking opportunities because of the large volume of oncoming traffic.


    I know the n22 fairly well, where'd be upgrading that road immediatly would be from 4 mile bridge to the county bounds, and by passing macroom.. but I wouldnt try building it all to high grade dual carraigeway (while that'd be great) , a decent n road standard would be good...
    Traffic traveling at 70 ,80 km an hour isnt terrible.. (unless your late for work)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #41
    Zonda999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    Speaking as a Corkonian, I also think the requirement for a Cork-Limerick motorway overwhelmingly trumps the need for the Macroom-Ballyvourney (Kerry border)HQDC and the motorway to Ringadkiddy.

    I say this because the scope of the Cork-Limerick is a lot bigger than the others A Cork Limerick motorway would mean a motorway stretching from Cork to north of Galway, with two* airports along its path. Its not just a road safety issue. This idea of a "Western corridor" and a sizable population living along it might have some chance of attracting inward investment that for once doesn't automatically go to the Dublin area. More balanced growth across the country is what we need and if the Cork-Limerick motorway can help provide this then the case for building it is a complete no-brainer

    *Cork and Shannon airports that is, Galway airport currently has no scheduled flights


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  • #42
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    that goes for pretty nearly every N road in the country, it doesn't make it a case for a Motorway. Try the N72 or the N24 for instance.

    I kind of figured you'd be a user of the roads you mention!

    The N72 near me has traffic volumes of 3-6k, it's nowhere near priority for upgrade

    The N24 is a different story and I have long said it needs an upgrade from start to finish, but it's not massive priority. I do think the N24 Pallasgreen-Cahir scheme should be in the next bundle of PPPs

    I mention the roads I use because a) I know them well and b) I would like to see them upgraded personally and c) Cork's roads as a whole are crap and need significant upgrades. After all, Dublin and Galway have had large work done on their approach roads, only the M8 (which goes to.. Dublin!) has been done in Cork.
    Markcheese wrote: »
    I know the n22 fairly well, where'd be upgrading that road immediatly would be from 4 mile bridge to the county bounds, and by passing macroom.. but I wouldnt try building it all to high grade dual carraigeway (while that'd be great) , a decent n road standard would be good...
    Traffic traveling at 70 ,80 km an hour isnt terrible.. (unless your late for work)

    The N22 needs a dual carraigeway from Macroom to Ovens, which in these modern times, means a motorway as basic dual carraigeways are designated as motorways (see the M17, M11, M18 and M9 for more info).

    The section from Macroom - far side of Baile Bhurine is being done as a type 2 dual carraigeway, which is basically 4 lanes, no shoulder seperated by wire.
    Zonda999 wrote: »
    Speaking as a Corkonian, I also think the requirement for a Cork-Limerick motorway overwhelmingly trumps the need for the Macroom-Ballyvourney (Kerry border)HQDC and the motorway to Ringadkiddy.

    I say this because the scope of the Cork-Limerick is a lot bigger than the others A Cork Limerick motorway would mean a motorway stretching from Cork to north of Galway, with two* airports along its path. Its not just a road safety issue. This idea of a "Western corridor" and a sizable population living along it might have some chance of attracting inward investment that for once doesn't automatically go to the Dublin area. More balanced growth across the country is what we need and if the Cork-Limerick motorway can help provide this then the case for building it is a complete no-brainer

    *Cork and Shannon airports that is, Galway airport currently has no scheduled flights

    TII's priorities for Cork at the minute are #1 Dunkettle, #2 M28 and #3 Macroom BP. I'd imagine the M20 would be fairly high up there if funding was available.

    Tranche 1 of the PPPs included the M8 Fermoy BP, the Waterford bypass and the Limerick Tunnel amongst others.

    Tranche 2 of the PPPs was announced in 2009, and included

    * M17/M18 Gort-Tuam
    * M11 Arklow-Rathnew
    * N7 Newlands Cross upgrade
    * M11 Enniscorthy bypass
    * N25 New Ross bypass
    * N6 Galway City Outer Bypass

    Two of those are done, one is half done, two are under construction and one is at design stage. When those are done, Tranche 3 of the PPPs will surely include the M20 in some form or another


  • #43
    mikeecho
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭mikeecho


    Any busy national route, that is being upgraded, should be a high quality dual carriageway (near motorway standard)

    We should build for the future, not the present.

    Look at the Jack Lynch tunnel, it's operating way over its projected capacity.


  • #44
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    If the N24 is seen as a priority, then there is a case for new Motorway Mitchelstown to Limerick which would cover the needs of both the N20 and the N24 and probably save money.


  • #45
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    savagethegoat wrote:
    If the N24 is seen as a priority, then there is a case for new Motorway Mitchelstown to Limerick which would cover the needs of both the N20 and the N24 and probably save money.


    If that had been thought of first day, limerick ,cork and waterford motorways would have met in tipp somewhere, and carried on towards dublin , if they met up with a galway motorway ( before hitting dublin)- all the better..
    But that would have involved spacial planning,or some kind of strategy, a national one :-)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #46
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There isn't the levels of traffic on the M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, or the M9 to satisfy JUST INTERURBAN traffic. To make the traffic counts high enough for motorways, the commuter traffic and local traffic bump it up. Take for example the M20, if it's build to shadow what is now the R513, all the Mallow/Charleville/North Cork traffic is no longer using it, so it would have traffic levels of about 3,000. That's not enough to justify motorway. The existing R513 would be able to deal with that level of traffic.

    Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.


  • #47
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    marno21 wrote:
    Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.


    But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
    With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #48
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    marno21 wrote:
    Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.


    But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
    With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #49
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Markcheese wrote: »
    But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
    With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...
    The M50 is a problem because of several issues: poor public transport connectivity/lack of housing in Dublin/traffic magnets such as Liffey Valley/Blanchardstown centre. The M50 can only be solved by taking traffic off it that doesn't need to be there, such as people using the M50 because there's no viable method of commuting by rail. The M50 brilliantly works 21 hours a day in fairness.

    IMO the three most important MAJOR transport schemes for this country are (or equivilant if they are to be redesigned):

    * Metro North: provide rail access from the city centre to the airport, and Swords, one of the fastest growing areas in Ireland with no rail access. It would also take massive pressure off the M50 and especially the M1 which is now peaking at 160k vehicles a day near the M1/M50 interchange

    * DART Underground: interconnecting rail links in the city centre and making possible a huge expansion in the use of rail to commute into the city centre

    * M20 Cork/Limerick motorway: Step 1 in creating an effective counterbalance to the Greater Dublin Area. Two cities, two airports, two ports (EU designated TEN-T core ports), two universities, and 750k people, currently connected by a road, which in parts, is running on the same alignment as it did in the late 1800s.

    Built those three and you get back multiples of what you put in, and that's not including smaller schemes such as the M28 in Cork.

    Here's a look at the major transport infrastructure being built in Ireland as of August 1:

    * M17/M18 Gort - Tuam in Co. Galway

    * M11 Enniscorthy bypass: connecting Dublin to.. Wexford.

    * N25 New Ross bypass: connecting Waterford to.. Wexford.

    * Luas BXD (Luas Cross City): something positive, but needs more investment in a complete, connected rail network for Dublin.


  • #50
    Voodoomelon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Voodoomelon


    ^^ There's a person that knows what they're talking about,


  • #51
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,682 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    None of which will replace the m50...
    There is no other place in the country that is as connected.
    If you want to distribute /import anything throughout ireland , or like dublin airport collect and export , then you've got be on the m50...
    And connecting 2 small cities with dying airports isnt going provide the counterweigh to dublins growth..
    Most of the projects mentioned are well worthwhile, some should have been done years ago.

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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