All-Ireland motorway network.. sound familiar?

marno21

savagethegoat wrote: »

"The 2+1 section rebuild is nothing more than window dressing. It was unnecessary and a colossal waste of money. Especially considering the existing road south of the Burnfort turnoff will be used as part of the actual M20 motorway. Everything south of the Burnfort turnoff to Cork will use the existing road with a parallel single carraigeway built to service properties & accesses along the route".


I think you are incorrect there. From memory, the Motorway was intended to use the existing route to just short of Rathduff (in the vicinity of the Railway bridge) and will then use a new alignment via the vicinity of Oliver's Cross East of Mallow.

I agree it's a huge waste of money rebuilding the discredited 2+1 section. However the latest proposal talks of an uprated N20, so you might be close to the eventual truth, minus the parallel road which would be unnecessary if it was not a motorway

I think they were planing on going south from the Burnfort junction but if they changed their plans after the last documents I read (which were ~2009), then you are correct. I was never sure what they were going to do with Rathduff, it sounds almost like they wanted to "Kilmacanogue" it.

This will go ahead as motorway only, the 'N20 upgrades' are just mistaken.

bear1 wrote: »

The issue with the Galway "bypass" is the flyover everyone is pissing themselves over.
I read that only recently the Councillors realised the issue of the M6 roundabout before Ballybrit.
Can you imagine the nightmare it will be at that roundabout coming from the M6 is there wouldn't a flyover??
I hope you're right though

Not sure what flyover this is. Don't forget that there will be 2 tunnels on the Galway bypass too, one under the racecourse and one under a patch of limestone that can't be disturbed. Also a big viaduct over the River Corrib.

Markcheese wrote: »

Do we really need a motorway from cork to limerick , yes from mallow on theres a serious need for bypasses and upgrades but a motorway..?
Its one of those things where if they built the n20 then kiss goodbye to macroom bypass, the dunkettle upgrade,and ringaskiddy road...

Yes we do. There's a motorway being built from Galway to Tuam, and one is nearly finished from Galway to Limerick. Add to that a motorway from Dublin to Wexford where there is a motorway to Waterford already, and there's a motorway being built a good chunk of the way from Waterford to Wexford.

It's actually the other way around. The Dunkettle (2018 start), Macroom BP (2020 start) and M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (2020 start) are being done first. M20 planning isn't started so wouldn't be ready to go until 2020/2021 anyway.

savagethegoat wrote: »

yes we do, the current road is unsafe in places and isn't suitable to be widened so a new alignment is needed north of Rathduff.

Why would you think a motorway from the 2nd to the 3rd City is less important than the road to Ringaskiddy?

In fairness, traffic levels on the N28 between Carr's Hill and Carrigaline are ~23/24k per day. That's not sustainable for the road in existance, and needs a bad upgrade. Contrast that with traffic levels on parts of the M8/M9 which are barely 10k.

moleyv wrote: »

I take it you don't use the road. There needs to be teleportation from charleville past buttevant.

A 1 hour 20 min journey for me can easily have an hour added due to traffic.

It would be 45 minutes with the M20 in place. Now it's upto 2 hours, and that's not on a Friday evening or when there's a Munster match on.

zilog_jones wrote: »

Weren't the CPOs already done for the M20? They should start work on the bypasses for small towns at the very least.

Another issue is a lack of a proper North Ring Road in Cork - did anything happen there? I remember seeing plans.

I believe a small amount were done, but I'm not too sure. There's plans for a North Ring Road in Cork alright, split into two sections, east and west. The eastern section, from around Killeens to the M8 near Glanmire was part of the M20 scheme that was suspended in 2011 (this scheme included the full M20 mainline, an Adare BP and the North Ring Road east - was a bit big to proceed alright at the time). The western section, from the proposed M20/North Ring junction to the Poulavone roundabout in Ballincollig is still suspended.

Markcheese

Did I say leave the road as it is ??
No , it's in need of serious upgrade, but the difference between say 500million to upgrade and bypass and 1.5 billion to build a whole new motorway could be decades of waiting ....
(Figures pulled out to make an example i've no idea how much either would be)
We have a fixation with motorways to everywhere ... i'd wonder how long it'd last if we had to pay economic or even french levels of tolls... sure you can use the new m20 but it'll cost 20 quid each way.. motorway to mallow,
motorway to killarney
Motorway to waterford
Motorway to carrigaline/ringaskiddy
What about skibb and bantry ,awful road too.
And thats just cork, there's25 other counties ...

marno21

Markcheese wrote: »

Did I say leave the road as it is ??
No , it's in need of serious upgrade, but the difference between say 500million to upgrade and bypass and 1.5 billion to build a whole new motorway could be decades of waiting ....
(Figures pulled out to make an example i've no idea how much either would be)
We have a fixation with motorways to everywhere ... i'd wonder how long it'd last if we had to pay economic or even french levels of tolls... sure you can use the new m20 but it'll cost 20 quid each way.. motorway to mallow,
motorway to killarney
Motorway to waterford
Motorway to carrigaline/ringaskiddy
What about skibb and bantry ,awful road too.
And thats just cork, there's25 other counties ...

The price tag on the M20 would be around 600/700 million. That doesn't include the North Ring Rd east element.

That's not much cheaper than bypasses for Mallow Buttevant and Charleville, and realignment of the entire road from Croom to Mallow. And with the motorway, you get a high speed link between two major economic hubs instead of a cart track.

Cork needs a M20 to Limerick, an M22 to Macroom, an M25 to Youghal, an M28 to Ringaskiddy and a M71 to around Halfway. The existing roads are dangerous and slow. Traffic from Cork to Tralee, Limerick, Killarney, Waterford, Ringaskiddy, Bandon etc has to move at an average speed of 50-70km/h while traffic out of Dublin can move at 120km/h. That's a major issue.

savagethegoat

you ruin the case for a M20 project by saying that Cork needs a Motorway to some of these places.

The road to Halfway is not too bad and actually excellent in places, and definitely doesn't need to be motorway.

The road to Youghal is mainly good but needs tweeking and a Castlematyr/Killeagh bypass.

The Ringaskiddy road needs improving, in places, but doesn't need a Motorway surely.

On the other hand, Cork to Limerick needs a major inter-urban road as a priority. It's in a different league to the other roads you name, as is a full or partial ring road for the City

marno21

savagethegoat wrote: »

you ruin the case for a M20 project by saying that Cork needs a Motorway to some of these places.

The road to Halfway is not too bad and actually excellent in places, and definitely doesn't need to be motorway.

The road to Youghal is mainly good but needs tweeking and a Castlematyr/Killeagh bypass.

The Ringaskiddy road needs improving, in places, but doesn't need a Motorway surely.

On the other hand, Cork to Limerick needs a major inter-urban road as a priority. It's in a different league to the other roads you name, as is a full or partial ring road for the City

When I say motorway I mean a Type 1 Dual Carraigeway. Which in Ireland consists of 2 3.5m running lanes, 2x 2.5m hard shoulders and a concrete central median, small or compact grade seperated junctions. These could also be left with green signs but why not designate them motorway and keep cyclists, pedestrians and horse and carts off these strategic routes.

I'm not on about the M1/M4/M7 with 3.75m running lanes, and 15m wide grass medians. I'm talking about proper, future proof roads, rather than like the South Ring having to come back in 10/15 years and upgrade them again. The South Ring has had 200m worth of upgrades done to it in the last 10 years and now needs another major upgrade at Dunkettle. The Ringaskiddy road was upgraded from Carrs Hill to the South Ring in the early 90s and now it needs to be upgraded again. This isn't right, having to re-upgrade roads.

The N71 to Halfway is decent, but there's a dodgy section of dual carraigeway sandwiched between two single carriageway sections, and also the traffic levels are around 20k, which are above the limit for a single carriageway. There's also need for an Inishannon bypass further west.

The road to Youghal needs to be a motorway grade dual carraigeway with bypasses of Castlemartyer & Killeagh.

Dublin has a motorway to Ashbourne, a motorway to Kells and a motorway most of the way to Wexford. Why does Cork have to run 20k+ daily traffic roads on goat tracks?

savagethegoat

The traffic levels on some of those roads are almost entirely rush hour traffic.

Trying to piggyback these roads on to the need for an M20 can only harm the chances of the M20 being built
Lots of places need upgrades and bypasses.

marno21

savagethegoat wrote: »

The traffic levels on some of those roads are almost entirely rush hour traffic.

Trying to piggyback these roads on to the need for an M20 can only harm the chances of the M20 being built
Lots of places need upgrades and bypasses.

Wrong. I often drive on the N22 from Macroom to Cork at weekend times and the effective speed of the traffic is around 70km/h because there's a queue stuck behind a truck and no overtaking opportunities because of the large volume of oncoming traffic.

savagethegoat

that goes for pretty nearly every N road in the country, it doesn't make it a case for a Motorway. Try the N72 or the N24 for instance.

I kind of figured you'd be a user of the roads you mention!

Markcheese

marno21 wrote:

Wrong. I often drive on the N22 from Macroom to Cork at weekend times and the effective speed of the traffic is around 70km/h because there's a queue stuck behind a truck and no overtaking opportunities because of the large volume of oncoming traffic.

I know the n22 fairly well, where'd be upgrading that road immediatly would be from 4 mile bridge to the county bounds, and by passing macroom.. but I wouldnt try building it all to high grade dual carraigeway (while that'd be great) , a decent n road standard would be good...
Traffic traveling at 70 ,80 km an hour isnt terrible.. (unless your late for work)

Zonda999

Speaking as a Corkonian, I also think the requirement for a Cork-Limerick motorway overwhelmingly trumps the need for the Macroom-Ballyvourney (Kerry border)HQDC and the motorway to Ringadkiddy.

I say this because the scope of the Cork-Limerick is a lot bigger than the others A Cork Limerick motorway would mean a motorway stretching from Cork to north of Galway, with two* airports along its path. Its not just a road safety issue. This idea of a "Western corridor" and a sizable population living along it might have some chance of attracting inward investment that for once doesn't automatically go to the Dublin area. More balanced growth across the country is what we need and if the Cork-Limerick motorway can help provide this then the case for building it is a complete no-brainer

*Cork and Shannon airports that is, Galway airport currently has no scheduled flights

marno21

savagethegoat wrote: »

that goes for pretty nearly every N road in the country, it doesn't make it a case for a Motorway. Try the N72 or the N24 for instance.

I kind of figured you'd be a user of the roads you mention!

The N72 near me has traffic volumes of 3-6k, it's nowhere near priority for upgrade

The N24 is a different story and I have long said it needs an upgrade from start to finish, but it's not massive priority. I do think the N24 Pallasgreen-Cahir scheme should be in the next bundle of PPPs

I mention the roads I use because a) I know them well and b) I would like to see them upgraded personally and c) Cork's roads as a whole are crap and need significant upgrades. After all, Dublin and Galway have had large work done on their approach roads, only the M8 (which goes to.. Dublin!) has been done in Cork.

Markcheese wrote: »

I know the n22 fairly well, where'd be upgrading that road immediatly would be from 4 mile bridge to the county bounds, and by passing macroom.. but I wouldnt try building it all to high grade dual carraigeway (while that'd be great) , a decent n road standard would be good...
Traffic traveling at 70 ,80 km an hour isnt terrible.. (unless your late for work)

The N22 needs a dual carraigeway from Macroom to Ovens, which in these modern times, means a motorway as basic dual carraigeways are designated as motorways (see the M17, M11, M18 and M9 for more info).

The section from Macroom - far side of Baile Bhurine is being done as a type 2 dual carraigeway, which is basically 4 lanes, no shoulder seperated by wire.

Zonda999 wrote: »

Speaking as a Corkonian, I also think the requirement for a Cork-Limerick motorway overwhelmingly trumps the need for the Macroom-Ballyvourney (Kerry border)HQDC and the motorway to Ringadkiddy.

I say this because the scope of the Cork-Limerick is a lot bigger than the others A Cork Limerick motorway would mean a motorway stretching from Cork to north of Galway, with two* airports along its path. Its not just a road safety issue. This idea of a "Western corridor" and a sizable population living along it might have some chance of attracting inward investment that for once doesn't automatically go to the Dublin area. More balanced growth across the country is what we need and if the Cork-Limerick motorway can help provide this then the case for building it is a complete no-brainer

*Cork and Shannon airports that is, Galway airport currently has no scheduled flights

TII's priorities for Cork at the minute are #1 Dunkettle, #2 M28 and #3 Macroom BP. I'd imagine the M20 would be fairly high up there if funding was available.

Tranche 1 of the PPPs included the M8 Fermoy BP, the Waterford bypass and the Limerick Tunnel amongst others.

Tranche 2 of the PPPs was announced in 2009, and included

* M17/M18 Gort-Tuam
* M11 Arklow-Rathnew
* N7 Newlands Cross upgrade
* M11 Enniscorthy bypass
* N25 New Ross bypass
* N6 Galway City Outer Bypass

Two of those are done, one is half done, two are under construction and one is at design stage. When those are done, Tranche 3 of the PPPs will surely include the M20 in some form or another

mikeecho

Any busy national route, that is being upgraded, should be a high quality dual carriageway (near motorway standard)

We should build for the future, not the present.

Look at the Jack Lynch tunnel, it's operating way over its projected capacity.

savagethegoat

If the N24 is seen as a priority, then there is a case for new Motorway Mitchelstown to Limerick which would cover the needs of both the N20 and the N24 and probably save money.

Markcheese

savagethegoat wrote:

If the N24 is seen as a priority, then there is a case for new Motorway Mitchelstown to Limerick which would cover the needs of both the N20 and the N24 and probably save money.

If that had been thought of first day, limerick ,cork and waterford motorways would have met in tipp somewhere, and carried on towards dublin , if they met up with a galway motorway ( before hitting dublin)- all the better..
But that would have involved spacial planning,or some kind of strategy, a national one :-)

marno21

There isn't the levels of traffic on the M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, or the M9 to satisfy JUST INTERURBAN traffic. To make the traffic counts high enough for motorways, the commuter traffic and local traffic bump it up. Take for example the M20, if it's build to shadow what is now the R513, all the Mallow/Charleville/North Cork traffic is no longer using it, so it would have traffic levels of about 3,000. That's not enough to justify motorway. The existing R513 would be able to deal with that level of traffic.

Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.

Markcheese

marno21 wrote:

Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.

But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...

Markcheese

marno21 wrote:

Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.

But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...

marno21

Markcheese wrote: »

But we have a motorway system that hubs onto the wonderful m50, which isnt going to get any bigger ...
With all the problems that makes for the country.. because the road network centres on the m50, transport ,importation and distribution all want to be there, kind of skews national development...

The M50 is a problem because of several issues: poor public transport connectivity/lack of housing in Dublin/traffic magnets such as Liffey Valley/Blanchardstown centre. The M50 can only be solved by taking traffic off it that doesn't need to be there, such as people using the M50 because there's no viable method of commuting by rail. The M50 brilliantly works 21 hours a day in fairness.

IMO the three most important MAJOR transport schemes for this country are (or equivilant if they are to be redesigned):

* Metro North: provide rail access from the city centre to the airport, and Swords, one of the fastest growing areas in Ireland with no rail access. It would also take massive pressure off the M50 and especially the M1 which is now peaking at 160k vehicles a day near the M1/M50 interchange

* DART Underground: interconnecting rail links in the city centre and making possible a huge expansion in the use of rail to commute into the city centre

* M20 Cork/Limerick motorway: Step 1 in creating an effective counterbalance to the Greater Dublin Area. Two cities, two airports, two ports (EU designated TEN-T core ports), two universities, and 750k people, currently connected by a road, which in parts, is running on the same alignment as it did in the late 1800s.

Built those three and you get back multiples of what you put in, and that's not including smaller schemes such as the M28 in Cork.

Here's a look at the major transport infrastructure being built in Ireland as of August 1:

* M17/M18 Gort - Tuam in Co. Galway

* M11 Enniscorthy bypass: connecting Dublin to.. Wexford.

* N25 New Ross bypass: connecting Waterford to.. Wexford.

* Luas BXD (Luas Cross City): something positive, but needs more investment in a complete, connected rail network for Dublin.

Voodoomelon

^^ There's a person that knows what they're talking about,

Markcheese

None of which will replace the m50...
There is no other place in the country that is as connected.
If you want to distribute /import anything throughout ireland , or like dublin airport collect and export , then you've got be on the m50...
And connecting 2 small cities with dying airports isnt going provide the counterweigh to dublins growth..
Most of the projects mentioned are well worthwhile, some should have been done years ago.

savagethegoat

marno21 wrote: »

There isn't the levels of traffic on the M7/M8 west of Portlaoise, or the M9 to satisfy JUST INTERURBAN traffic. To make the traffic counts high enough for motorways, the commuter traffic and local traffic bump it up. Take for example the M20, if it's build to shadow what is now the R513, all the Mallow/Charleville/North Cork traffic is no longer using it, so it would have traffic levels of about 3,000. That's not enough to justify motorway. The existing R513 would be able to deal with that level of traffic.

Also, the post suggesting the Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford motorways should all merge into one, see the current N7 traffic levels in Ireland, or have a look at the M1/M6 in England, which they have to constantly widen to take all the traffic dumped onto them.

North Cork traffic will largely not benefit from the M20 as planned as they will have to travel long distances on the existing roads to get to an M20 junction. Take the end to end traffic off the N20 by building as I suggested and the existing road would be more than adequate to deal with the local traffic you mention

marno21

Markcheese wrote: »

None of which will replace the m50...
There is no other place in the country that is as connected.
If you want to distribute /import anything throughout ireland , or like dublin airport collect and export , then you've got be on the m50...
And connecting 2 small cities with dying airports isnt going provide the counterweigh to dublins growth..
Most of the projects mentioned are well worthwhile, some should have been done years ago.

What are you on about replacing the M50? The only thing we can do with the M50 is reduce commuter traffic. It works fine bar for 4 hours 5 days a week (bar the issues from J16 to the Bray North exit on the M11 which will be solved by the widening to 3 lane (it was never done before on this part) and the reconfiguration of the N11 to J14 Coyne's Cross).

Giving people the option of using a decent rail network to commute instead of having to sit on the M50 would go a long way. Metro North will solve the massive reliance of car commuting in the Swords and North Dublin area, and also remove some airport traffic. DART Underground will fully connect the disjointed Dublin rail network and allow a major expansion in the capacity of the Greater Dublin rail network.

Nothing more can be done with the M50 bar demand management such as variable speed limits or multi point tolling. It can't be widened any more on the busiest parts from the M1 junction to the Red Cow, nor should it be. A lot of the traffic using the road doesn't need to be there, nor do the drivers want to be sitting in traffic all the time. Unfortunately it will be another 10 years before anything is done, by when it'll be too late. Traffic volumes on the M50 are currently well over capacity AND growing. We can't add an additional lane and upgrade the junctions to bail us out this time. There was no lesson learned back in 2006 when it was at critical volume and they should've realised that if they widened it, the traffic would only grow to breaking point on the widened M50. Other solutions should've been devised and implemented now, not when we really have run out of options.

savagethegoat wrote: »

North Cork traffic will largely not benefit from the M20 as planned as they will have to travel long distances on the existing roads to get to an M20 junction. Take the end to end traffic off the N20 by building as I suggested and the existing road would be more than adequate to deal with the local traffic you mention

Where are you talking about here may I ask? The main issue I see here is the lack of a junction on the proposed M20 with the R515. Whilst I understand they don't want the main junction being with this road because the street gets very narrow near the town and passes a school, if there is no direct M20-R515 connectivity, the traffic, mainly heading for Limerick, coming from the R515 will still have to go through the town, so the M20 will have no positive effect on traffic levels along the narrow R515.