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Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Comments

  • #902
    Its dead Jim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭Its dead Jim


    Shield wrote: »
    All we need is a balanced discussion, and a willingness to discuss the emotive issues without the emotion.

    Good luck with that. If you don't support reducing everyone's rights then you end up being accused of supporting ISIS.


  • #903
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    hmmm wrote: »
    I don't see the Vietnamese slaughtering Americans,
    .. any more coz they won
    hmmm wrote: »
    or Indians slaughtering British people,
    ..any more coz they won
    hmmm wrote: »
    or Chinese slaughtering Japanese people,
    .. any more coz they.....oh you get the picture.


  • #904
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Shield wrote: »
    Again, in the interest of balance, there are those of us who have pointed out ways that the doctrine of Islam can be criticized on here without receiving a warning/infraction/ban.

    Referring to my earlier posts on this here, here and here, I think it's fair to say that I lean towards Sam Harris' way of thinking when he calls Islam "the mother lode of bad ideas".

    What I don't condone is the unfair tarring of Muslims as people. That, to me, is sickening. I've demonstrated that this forum will permit the open criticizing of the doctrine of Islam, as long as it's done with objectivity and a modicum of intelligence. It IS possible to convince Muslims that this doctrine is not the way, but that can only be achieved through honest dialogue on the points of contention within the teachings of Islam. Becoming a "cheerleader" for Islam is indefensible in its current form, but so is calling for Muslims to be rounded up and deported.

    All we need is a balanced discussion, and a willingness to discuss the emotive issues without the emotion.

    The issue now is not the merits of a debate on good versus bad Islam. The issue is how to protect the lives of ordinary citizens.

    You can ( a) ban all public gatherings which is a form of internment of the citizenry or one could consider a large scale profiling and interment of Muslims for a period.

    Personally the west will ha e to consider some radical move or this will get out of hand


  • #905
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Its dead Jim wrote: »
    Good luck with that. If you don't support reducing everyone's rights then you end up being accused of supporting ISIS.

    No it's just we have to accept that solutions are not always " fair "


  • #906
    Its dead Jim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭Its dead Jim


    BoatMad wrote: »
    No it's just we have to accept that solutions are not always " fair "

    What solutions? Genocide? Getting rid of freedom of religion? PC thought police? Creating camps?

    We're told that Muslims aren't compatible with western values, going by this thread there were already plenty of people here doing that while hiding behind the same rights they want to take away from others.


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  • #907
    The Highwayman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,227 ✭✭✭The Highwayman


    tomofson wrote: »
    Johnny Carson wrote: »
    You have been visited by the Islamic truck of tolerance. Post this in another thread or the peace truck will never visit you.

    >______________ _____ O O
    >| # ReligionOfPeace ||l | \__,_ __
    >|___________________|||__|__|__|] I I
    >(@)@)*************(@)(@)**(@)

    Nothing as of yet to suggest he was muslim, so keep the hate preaching to yourself for now


    More SJW apologists clap trap from you. You accused me of having an agenda when your agenda of defending these terrorists at all costs is frankly nauseating.


  • #908
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Saudi Arabia should be threatened with the nuclear bomb if they don't reign ISIS in. They are the country which George Bush should have invaded, not Iraq.

    Never going to happen as long as we continue to buy oil from them, sell weapons to them and also see trillions of their dollars invested in Western Economies.


  • #909
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Its dead Jim wrote: »
    BoatMad wrote: »
    No it's just we have to accept that solutions are not always " fair "

    What solutions? Genocide? Getting rid of freedom of religion? PC thought police? Creating camps?

    We're told that Muslims aren't compatible with western values, going by this thread there were already plenty of people here doing that while hiding behind the same rights they want to take away from others.
    The only people trying to deny the rights of people who don't believe in silly religious nonsense is Muslims. They are hundreds of years behind civilization.


  • #910
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,952 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The only people trying to deny the rights of people who don't believe in silly religious nonsense is Muslims. They are hundreds of years behind civilization.

    So your answer to stopping innocent people from getting killed is to nuke a country and kill how many innocent people?


  • #911
    tomofson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The only people trying to deny the rights of people who don't believe in silly religious nonsense is Muslims. They are hundreds of years behind civilization.

    Strangely enough at one time islamic civilizations where hundreds of years ahead of european civilizations, they where the capitals and the pioneers of science,arts and culture...


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  • #912
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    tomofson wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    The only people trying to deny the rights of people who don't believe in silly religious nonsense is Muslims. They are hundreds of years behind civilization.

    Strangely enough at one time islamic civilizations where hundreds of years ahead of european civilizations, they where the capitals and the pioneers of science,arts and culture...
    A myth. Ancient Greece was far ahead of them. Rome, Carthage. Intellectual philosophers and scientists.


  • #913
    tomofson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    A myth. Ancient Greece was far ahead of them. Rome, Carthage. Intellectual philosophers and scientists.

    The islamic golden age contributed a lot to, if you want to argue about the islamic problems in the world today you have to first be able to accept basic history. It would allow people to take you a little more seriously.


  • #914
    joe40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭joe40


    I have just been skimming through this thread and must say some really silly ideas been put forward. internment didn't work to well for the British in Northern ireland just became a recruiting bonanza for the IRA.
    This type of terrorism is unlike anything faced before because the terrorists involved don't care about their own survival. An IRA attack was planned so the the attackers could not only escape but avoid detection. This required resources, intelligence, bravery (however misguided) and at the very least tacit support from within the community.

    Drive a lorry into a group of people or walk int a crowded venue and start shooting. Anyone could do that if they had no intention of escaping. It only takes a tiny tiny percentage of the Muslim community to do widescale damage using these tactics, therefore the idea that this can be solved by taregeting muslims is in my view ridiculous.

    I have a lot of problems with the Muslim faith in the way they treat women and for general intolerance but not dissimilar to 1950s catholism in Ireland. However to treat all Muslims as potential terrorists - ridiculous and counter productive.


  • #915
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    tomofson wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    A myth. Ancient Greece was far ahead of them. Rome, Carthage. Intellectual philosophers and scientists.

    The islamic golden age contributed a lot to, if you want to argue about the islamic problems in the world today you have to first be able to accept basic history. It would allow people to take you a little more seriously.
    They used to have great men leading them like Saladin during the Crusades but they are a joke now in the intellectual world.


  • #916
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Its dead Jim wrote: »
    What solutions? Genocide? Getting rid of freedom of religion? PC thought police? Creating camps?

    We're told that Muslims aren't compatible with western values, going by this thread there were already plenty of people here doing that while hiding behind the same rights they want to take away from others.

    My right ( or my French counterpart ) right to survive and to feel safe in my community trumps any other groupings rights. That has always been the way. Countries bring force to deal t directly to protect such situations.

    It's not about fairness anymore , it's about protecting European domestic civilians. It's not about the issue of mioderate
    versus radical Islam., again it's about direct and immediate action to secure the freedoms of a countries citizenry.

    Moral debates about the source of the water when you need a big fire piut put are just redundant.

    France must act and act decisively within its own borders to secure its own citizenry, it may have to do whatever it take ls in order to do that including mass deportation of non national Muslims and a severe reduction in the rights of domestic Muslims.

    The alternative is to watch further carnage on the streets while the intellectuals engage in moral handwringing


  • #917
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,085 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Shield wrote: »
    Again, in the interest of balance, there are those of us who have pointed out ways that the doctrine of Islam can be criticized on here without receiving a warning/infraction/ban.

    Referring to my earlier posts on this here, here and here, I think it's fair to say that I lean towards Sam Harris' way of thinking when he calls Islam "the mother lode of bad ideas".

    What I don't condone is the unfair tarring of Muslims as people. That, to me, is sickening. I've demonstrated that this forum will permit the open criticizing of the doctrine of Islam, as long as it's done with objectivity and a modicum of intelligence. It IS possible to convince Muslims that this doctrine is not the way, but that can only be achieved through honest dialogue on the points of contention within the teachings of Islam. Becoming a "cheerleader" for Islam is indefensible in its current form, but so is calling for Muslims to be rounded up and deported.

    All we need is a balanced discussion, and a willingness to discuss the emotive issues without the emotion.

    Why that's a well put together post the issue is people are not allowed to criticise Islam by the left liberal PC people or threatened with death by a significant number of followers of Islam. We have every right to criticise what we want but are not allowed to do so hence you get two extremes of militant Islam and the far right.


  • #918
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Seen a couple of posts on FB and indeed we have even had a poster in this thread saying that after this they will be heading off to join an army and go off to fight.

    Good job lads, just like Nice, Paris and every other attacker you have now become radicalised.

    People see the pictures of kids dead on the road after being run over and their anger rises and they want to do something about it, maybe in a day or 2 they will calm down and the thoughts of joining up will dissappear and they will go back to their lives but I guarantee that all over Europe over the next few weeks some young men and women will join armies with the soul intention of fighting to stop these attacks.

    Now look at it from the other side. Muslims all over the world have access to the Internet and they will see pictures of children blown apart by bombs dropped by western countries, they see these pictures and read these stories and just like our own young men they are outraged by this and wish to fight to help stop it.

    Just like us they see their people getting needlessly killed and cant understand why. If your friend told you tomorrow that they had joined up to the US/British army and was heading off to Iraq to fight isis you probably wouldn't bat an eyelid yet young Muslim men doing the same are the bad guys.

    Yes I know isis want a Caliphate and want to chop all of our heads off blah blah blah but if 10,000 young men see video of a child killed (weather by a "smart bomb" or a guy in a truck) then you will have a small minority who will feel compelled to do something about it.

    I'm just glad that last night's attacker hadn't packed that thing with ANFO because the carnage would have been 100 times worse.

    And before anyone starts accusing me of being an SJW or standing up for terrorism, I assure you I am not and would never condone these acts, I'm just trying to point out that the actions of a few cannot be blamed on the majority, calling for mass bombings, deportations, incarceration of millions of people will not solve this.

    Joining an army to protect the citizens of your country is not comparable to joining a terrorist organisation which targets civilians


  • #919
    Hurtbuthealing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Hurtbuthealing


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Nazis in Germany don't have the right to promote Nazi ideology. Why do Muslims have that right to promote Islam?

    because Islam is a religion and there is nothing wrong with promoting Islam.


  • #920
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Since you have no idea, then the solution must fall on others that may have solutions Howvever distasteful .

    Hand wringing is a most useless activity as innocents die

    I'm not hand-wringing.

    I'm just not arrogant enough to think that, I, a poster on boards, have all the answers to one of the most complex problems the west have ever faced.


  • #921
    tomofson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭tomofson


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    They used to have great men leading them like Saladin during the Crusades but they are a joke now in the intellectual world.

    Also the ancient islamic civilization in Africa which at one time where the richest in the world. To this day the richest man to have EVER lived was the king of the Malawian empire which was an ancient Islamic African empire... Also the most peaceful empire to ever exist and the most charitable.


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  • #922
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The French police have a problem on their hands orders of magnitude greater then anything the UK police has to deal with. It's a disgrace to denigrate the French police at this time. It's cretinous behaviour
    The French police have come in for some very worthy criticism, in my opinion.

    Perhaps you've dealt with French police in the past. I certainly have. They're nothing like Irish gardai or British bobbies, who have a tradition of amiability, pragmatism and community involvement (obviously there are exceptions).

    French police have always resembled bouncers to me. They are a disorganised hodgepodge of authorities, with no community policing.

    The last time I was in a French police station, after my apartment was burgled, I had to pass through two police officers wielding submachine guns. In the foyer, my bag was searched, and then I was searched. The officers that I spoke to were terse and surly, as they always are when approached by members of the public.

    I can understand why that is the situation right now, of course. It is natural for the police to be tense and distrustful. I wasn't offended or anything silly like that, but it just struck me of illustrative of the fact that their attitude to the communities they serve is abrasive. Community policing means nothing to them.

    A lot of people complain about irish gardai, but they are gentlemen & scholars compared to some of the brutish elements of the French police who, for the record, happen not to be the shiniest pennies in the purse.


  • #923
    Its dead Jim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭Its dead Jim


    BoatMad wrote: »
    My right ( or my French counterpart ) right to survive and to feel safe in my community trumps any other groupings rights. That has always been the way. Countries bring force to deal t directly to protect such situations.

    It's not about fairness anymore , it's about protecting European domestic civilians. It's not about the issue of mioderate
    versus radical Islam., again it's about direct and immediate action to secure the freedoms of a countries citizenry.

    Moral debates about the source of the water when you need a big fire piut put are just redundant.

    France must act and act decisively within its own borders to secure its own citizenry, it may have to do whatever it take ls in order to do that including mass deportation of non national Muslims and a severe reduction in the rights of domestic Muslims.

    The alternative is to watch further carnage on the streets while the intellectuals engage in moral handwringing

    Freedoms of citizens, unless you're the wrong religion. Yeah, that sounds great, let us destroy western values ourselves to save other groups the trouble.


  • #924
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,952 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Joining an army to protect the citizens of your country is not comparable to joining a terrorist organisation which targets civilians

    Being radicalised into thinking you are doing just that is though. Remember the old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Fwiw I would happily see any terrorist caught (planning an attack even) put against a wall and shot.


  • #925
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Hurtbuthealing wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Nazis in Germany don't have the right to promote Nazi ideology. Why do Muslims have that right to promote Islam?

    because Islam is a religion and there is nothing wrong with promoting Islam.
    I think you will find there is a problem with Islam. Go ask France.


  • #926
    timmyntc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    tomofson wrote: »
    The islamic golden age contributed a lot to, if you want to argue about the islamic problems in the world today you have to first be able to accept basic history. It would allow people to take you a little more seriously.

    The Islamic golden age seems like revisionist history tbh. I don't recall hearing much about how Islam were a thriving society and the rest of the world were savages back years ago..

    The 'Islamic Golden Age' was a period when an islamic caliphate was growing and growing, and as it grew it 'acquired' many great scientists and thinkers.
    One thing they did do well, to their credit, was make mathematics accessible to the masses. By taking the Roman developed systems and choosing base-10 and using arabic numerals it allowed more than just the 'elite scholars and wise mathematicians' to practice basic maths. Previously maths were intentionally obtuse to make it somewhat of an elitist practice.


  • #927
    selastich2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭selastich2


    nice airport is after being evacuated


  • #928
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    selastich2 wrote: »
    nice airport is after being evacuated
    source?


  • #929
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Joining an army to protect the citizens of your country is not comparable to joining a terrorist organisation which targets civilians
    From their point of view, it is.

    A terrorist doesn't rub his hands with glee and say to his family Oh darlings, how I do so love being a terrorist

    He seems himself as fighting for a just cause. If we don't appreciate that, and continue to see terrorists as purely evil, we will never understand them, and our authorities will never defeat them (or more accurately, defeat their mentality).


  • #930
    Lavinia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,114 ✭✭✭Lavinia


    ...just to say this has been a sad, sad day for humanity...
    condolences to victims, families and friends, and all of us....


    :'(


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  • #931
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Being radicalised into thinking you are doing just that is though. Remember the old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

    Fwiw I would happily see any terrorist caught (planning an attack even) put against a wall and shot.

    No really its not because nobody in the middle east sees them as freedom fighters


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