Some advice needed re:dog nipping(?) a child

Cork Lass · 04-07-2016 10:08PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've scrapped myself hundreds of times breaking the skin causing bleeding. In fact hundreds of times without a dog being present. As a nurse you're seriously suggesting that I've been bitten hundreds of times by dogs without knowing???

In all fairness this is a ridiculous comment. She was speaking about the child being bitten by the dog as opposed to being nipped/ scratched. If you're going to comment at least make a sensible comment.

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:10PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's my arm from just putting my arm in a friends door from gsd, he broke through an inch thick of a parka jacket, probably would have lost my arm if not for the jacket and the thickness of it.
If one of those is capable of biting I'd be getting it moved on, friend still has that dog that gripped me, I know he's going to do serious damage some day but it's my friends dog. I'm just never walking out to get the beers in the fridge again.

I've seen a lot of the same, as an adult, looking at the damage it caused you, I now consider what the same injury would do to a child.

I am not scaremongering, or trying too. I am stating a professional opinion and informing the OP of what that child faces now.

irishlady29 · 04-07-2016 10:11PM

You know your dog. If you feel the dog behaved in an aggressive manner and is likely to act in the same way again, then in my opinion the choices you have are 1) make absolute certain that the dog does not get the oppourtunity to behave like this again, never off the lead, maybe get that collar thing that stops them roaming 2) get the dog assessed by a highly qualified trainer to establish if the dog has an aggressive streak 3) rehome the dog in an environment where there is no risk of him hurting some body.
Personally, I don't think the dog should be out down.

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:11PM

borderlinemeath wrote: »

A dog with sharp claws jumped up on my leg last week, it caused a scratch with a small bit of bleeding and I still have a bruise. He caused me to bleed, yet he did not bite.

It's claws don't bite as they don't have teeth

Sleeper12 · 04-07-2016 10:11PM

MFlack2012 wrote:

That's called an abrasion not a scrape and not a bite. A bite involves teeth.

This whole argument is a bit silly but a bite has to involve the jaws closing motion. Its entirety possible for a dog to scrape with her teeth without biting. I don't see where Op says that the dog bit. There's a lot of assuming and drama here

Dubl07 · 04-07-2016 10:13PM

FortySeven wrote: »

We had a German shepherd who was a family pet, one of five dogs we had. One day he turned around and bit a large chunk out of my little brothers face. He was 6. He had always been a dog that nipped a bit.

His offspring (we bred them, pedigree) went on to savage a postman. Both were put down. I was devastated then but I see the sense in it now.

Your poor brother. That's why dogs and children should be supervised, particularly dogs that have low tolerance for being mauled by children.

As for the rest, I've known many more GSDs who don't bite than that do, tbh. The biggest question I'd ask would be why breed from a nippy dog? Were there health checks done to see if pain was an issue? Pedigree GSDs spines and hips (show standard) make me wince. Aside from that, how the heck did two or more of his offspring gain access to a postman? Human management of breeding, training and control may have been part of the problem in your case. One small nip in the OP's instance does not equate to biting a family member's face, nor to 'savaging' a postman. A behaviourist will be able to assess matters much more clearly than a bunch of strangers on the internet.

drunkmonkey · 04-07-2016 10:15PM

I'm an adult if one bit a kid they'd have serious marks from brusing alone.

Sleeper12 · 04-07-2016 10:21PM

Cork Lass wrote:

In all fairness this is a ridiculous comment. She was speaking about the child being bitten by the dog as opposed to being nipped/ scratched. If you're going to comment at least make a sensible comment.

In all fairness she is using her job a a nurse to try convince people that the wound was a bite without even seeing it. I was merely showing how ridiculous a statement she made.

A dog can easily break the skin on a child without biting.

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:25PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In all fairness she is using her job a a nurse to try convince people that the wound was a bite without even seeing it. I was merely showing how ridiculous a statement she made.

A dog can easily break the skin on a child without biting.

A dog can easily break the skin without biting. This is not called a scrape. It is called an abrasion, cut or laceration. Depending on how it is formed, how deep it is and how far into the three layers of skin it reaches. A scrape does not break the skin, it just takes off the top layer. A bite is when the mouth and teeth break the skin. My job as a Nurse and four years of studying and working in a hospital environment allows me to understand the difference between all of these and state such differences.

borderlinemeath · 04-07-2016 10:28PM

MFlack2012 wrote: »

It's claws don't bite as they don't have teeth

I was replying to this:

As a Nurse, if the skin was broken with bleeding this is a bite.

As another poster has pointed out, if the dog did bite there would be extensive bruising. From the OP there was a scrape on the childs arm with a small bit of bleeding. You're imagining the worst case scenario where the child might have been savaged and assuming they need therapy for life because of it.

muddypaws · 04-07-2016 10:32PM

MFlack2012 wrote: »

A dog can easily break the skin without biting. This is not called a scrape. It is called an abrasion, cut or laceration. Depending on how it is formed, how deep it is and how far into the three layers of skin it reaches. A scrape does not break the skin, it just takes off the top layer. A bite is when the mouth and teeth break the skin. My job as a Nurse and four years of studying and working in a hospital environment allows me to understand the difference between all of these and state such differences.

Are you a nurse? You haven't mentioned it.

You haven't seen the wound, or read a report, so neither you, nor anyone else on this thread, except the op, know the extent of the injury.

I would have thought that 4 years of studying and working in a hospital environment would actually have taught you not to jump to conclusions, but to make statements based on evidence - thats how science works, and medicine is science.

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:34PM

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I was replying to this:

As another poster has pointed out, if the dog did bite there would be extensive bruising. From the OP there was a scrape on the childs arm with a small bit of bleeding. You're imagining the worst case scenario where the child might have been savaged and assuming they need therapy for life because of it.

Not necessarily, you are assuming the worst case scenario. Bruising only happens when the blood vessels underneath the skin is damaged. As the dog bite was thankfully minimal this wouldn't occur. However that being said, nobody knows if the child did suffer this kind of damage as the OP never stated anything about bruising. Bruising doesn't always occur immediately following trauma either and can take a few days to be seen. I never suggested the child was savaged or needing therapy. Thankfully this wasn't the case and hopefully won't be.

Sleeper12 · 04-07-2016 10:35PM

MFlack2012 wrote:

A dog can easily break the skin without biting. This is not called a scrape. It is called an abrasion, cut or laceration. Depending on how it is formed, how deep it is and how far into the three layers of skin it reaches. A scrape does not break the skin, it just takes off the top layer. A bite is when the mouth and teeth break the skin. My job as a Nurse and four years of studying and working in a hospital environment allows me to understand the difference between all of these and state such differences.

Your previous comment stated that as a nurse you deemed the wound to be a bite. You have not seen the wound & it's ridiculous to try insist it is a bite with out seeing it.

OP was looking for advice as to whether their dog could be put down.
There are a lot of high houses here tonight

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:38PM

muddypaws wrote: »

Are you a nurse? You haven't mentioned it.

You haven't seen the wound, or read a report, so neither you, nor anyone else on this thread, except the op, know the extent of the injury.

I would have thought that 4 years of studying and working in a hospital environment would actually have taught you not to jump to conclusions, but to make statements based on evidence - thats how science works, and medicine is science.

I am yeah

I haven't, nope. You are exactly right and I never suggested I did, did I? I am merely stating facts about medical glossary of terms. Actually that is not true. The OP does not know the extent of the injury. Only the parents and Medical professional's treating this child know the extent of his/her injuries. The OP certainly doesn't.

Actually no, were are taught to consider all options and avenues. We are taught to treat what could happen as to prevent it e.g infection. That is why Tetanus shots are given, to prevent infection. Flu shots, to prevent flu, vaccinations to prevent diseases. That is how science works, theory, fact and conclusion.

MFlack2012 · 04-07-2016 10:40PM

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Your previous comment stated that as a nurse you deemed the wound to be a bite. You have not seen the wound & it's ridiculous to try insist it is a bite with out seeing it.

OP was looking for advice as to whether their dog could be put down.
There are a lot of high houses here tonight

Yes I would deem it to be a bite as the skin was broken by teeth. The OP stated that the dog's mouth caused injury to the child's arm. That is why we are calling it a bite. We don't have to see it to know that as truth.

kravmaga · 04-07-2016 10:42PM

MFlack2012 wrote: »

Oh my god, is all I can say. How dare you put any child in that situation and danger. You should be in control of an animal at all times as these are the very instances that arise and can turn fatal in an instant. If I were that parent I would insist on you being arrested for putting not only my child, but many children, in that kind of danger. I am a dog lover, but my children come first and all children would come before a pet. If I were you, I would be at the home of that child, apologising and begging forgiveness and asking if any medical bills need taken care of, not worrying about letting 'the dust settle'. If a dog is in that state of mind or in any way going to even snap at a child, I'd insist on it being put down too.

Don't be such an over emotional drama queen, it was a mistake, dog got off the lead, could happen to a bishop. The kids probably scared the dog by shouting.

OP I agree with the Garda assessment, let the dust settle, the dog should not be put down, way over the top reaction.

Dubl07 · 04-07-2016 10:45PM

MFlack2012 wrote: »

Not necessarily, you are assuming the worst case scenario. Bruising only happens when the blood vessels underneath the skin is damaged. As the dog bite was thankfully minimal this wouldn't occur. However that being said, nobody knows if the child did suffer this kind of damage as the OP never stated anything about bruising. Bruising doesn't always occur immediately following trauma either and can take a few days to be seen. I never suggested the child was savaged or needing therapy. Thankfully this wasn't the case and hopefully won't be.

Dogs don't have hands and so most use their mouths as a major part of play. If the child in the original post had been scraped by another child's fingernail or stud on a soccer boot he could have a booboo and might have needed a tetanus shot. If there had been bruising of any significance, the gardai would most likely have been less sanguine about the incident.

In an ideal world the owner and parents in conjunction with a behaviourist could use the incident as a learning experience for themselves and a teaching opportunity for the child and any other neighbourhood kids who want to introduce themselves safely to the OP's dog. (Suitably muzzled and leashed if off the owners' property.)

muddypaws · 04-07-2016 10:46PM

OP, I would be guided by the Garda that were involved, as they obviously saw the child, spoke with the parents and other people, and if they are saying to let it settle, it would appear that they don't deem it a serious incident.

Can I ask why the dog was on a lead in the garden, were you about to walk him, or is your garden not secure?

I can imagine that you are feeling very worried and upset this evening, hopefully everything can be resolved without your dog being put to sleep.

njs030 · 04-07-2016 10:46PM

MFlack2012 wrote: »

Yes I would deem it to be a bite as the skin was broken by teeth. The OP stated that the dog's mouth caused injury to the child's arm. That is why we are calling it a bite. We don't have to see it to know that as truth.

Ridiculous comment. My dog was running recently and somehow her open happy mouth skimmed my leg and caused a scratch that bled slightly. It happens.

You're talking complete rubbish and really need to stop.

FortySeven · 04-07-2016 10:48PM

Dubl07 wrote: »

Your poor brother. That's why dogs and children should be supervised, particularly dogs that have low tolerance for being mauled by children.

As for the rest, I've known many more GSDs who don't bite than that do, tbh. The biggest question I'd ask would be why breed from a nippy dog? Were there health checks done to see if pain was an issue? Pedigree GSDs spines and hips (show standard) make me wince. Aside from that, how the heck did two or more of his offspring gain access to a postman? Human management of breeding, training and control may have been part of the problem in your case. One small nip in the OP's instance does not equate to biting a family member's face, nor to 'savaging' a postman. A behaviourist will be able to assess matters much more clearly than a bunch of strangers on the internet.

He was bred before the bite. He was used to kids, he came into a house of five children as a pup. The postman came in the garden (rural, fenced house, closed gate) instead of using the post box. We also had Rottweilers, spaniels and Scottish terriers. We knew dogs.

In the UK if a dog bites it is destroyed by law. This dog pursued children and seems to have bitten one. Is it worth taking the risk that it could do it again? I love dogs and would not be quick to judge but this is not some redistributed fear or reaction to being mistreated or taunting. It isn't food related or because of pack problems. This was chase and attack possibly from excitement but very likely to be repeated imo.

Sleeper12 · 04-07-2016 10:48PM

MFlack2012 wrote:

Yes I would deem it to be a bite as the skin was broken by teeth. The OP stated that the dog's mouth caused injury to the child's arm. That is why we are calling it a bite. We don't have to see it to know that as truth.

Has your dentist never said bite down on this? There's only one way to bite and that is to close your jaws. A bite is NOT teeth scraping the skin causing it to bleed. A bite leaves teethmarks. I don't know if the dog bit the child and neither do you. Op wasn't asking this question anyway.
Has anyone actually read OPs question?
Are there no soaps on t.v.tonight? Too much drama here tonight.

muddypaws · 04-07-2016 10:51PM

FortySeven wrote: »

He was bred before the bite. He was used to kids, he came into a house of five children as a pup. The postman came in the garden (rural, fenced house, closed gate) instead of using the post box. We also had Rottweilers, spaniels and Scottish terriers. We knew dogs.

In the UK if a dog bites it is destroyed by law. This dog pursued children and seems to have bitten one. Is it worth taking the risk that it could do it again? I love dogs and would not be quick to judge but this is not some redistributed fear or reaction to being mistreated or taunting. It isn't food related or because of pack problems. This was chase and attack possibly from excitement but very likely to be repeated imo.

You said that he had always nipped though, so for responsible breeders, that would have been enough not to have bred from him.

No, in the UK dogs aren't automatically destroyed if they bite.

tk123 · 04-07-2016 10:52PM

We live in claim culture now OP so sit tight and what happens. If it's any consolation somebody we know in the park had a pup who encountered a hysterical child...the pup thought the child was playing with him as it was screaming and running away and he nipped her...on the bum lol - parent freaked out initially but then calmed down and all was well.
We're always getting knocks off our dogs teeth if they're playing and teeth are knashing etc while we're sitting down and Bailey mouths arms the odd time if he's very very excited to see us or a few close friends - thankfully they've no medical training so don't classify it as biting and haven't sued or demdanded his destruction yet!

Flippyfloppy · 04-07-2016 10:55PM

kravmaga wrote: »

The kids probably scared the dog by shouting.

And the dog probably scared the children by running toward them...

What concerns me about the Op is the seeming lack of concern regarding the dog getting out among children. I assume these were neighbourhood kids, and will be present on a daily basis. I hope you're going to ensure there is no repeat of this incident. As other people said, ensure your garden is more than 100% secure. You've gotten some other great advice in this thread, I hope you heed it.

Toots · 04-07-2016 11:00PM

OP were you going out for a walk with your dog when this happened - he escaped off the lead? If so, you could be on shaky ground because GSDs should be muzzled and on a short leash when out; that's a legal requirement. If the dog had been muzzled, at least he wouldn't have been able to 'nip' the child. If the collar is loose enough that the dog can get his head out of it, consider either tightening the collar, or getting a harness that he can't wriggle out of.

How you react to this is crucial - don't be dismissive of the parents, make sure any and all medical expenses for the child are covered. Get a muzzle for the dog. How old is the child in question? I'm not saying this in a hysterical kind of way, but being chased and then injured by a dog would be hugely traumatising for a child. Also if I was the parents and the owner of the dog displayed an "ah it's grand, it's barely a scratch" that would be red rag to a bull. If the owner was apologetic etc it would go a long way. Although the parents can't insist the dog be euthanised, they could potentially sue you.

To give you an example of a similar scenario, a person in my apartment complex had a small bichon and one day as it was being brought out for a walk (not on a lead) it nipped/bit one of the kids that lived in that block as she was passing. The skin was broken. Her parents went to the owner about it and he basically said it didn't happen, was very dismissive of the whole thing. The kid was brought to hospital where it was confirmed as an animal bite and she had to get a tetanus shot, etc. The parents took legal action and last year it went to court and the child was awarded something like €15 or €20k, the judge also ordered that the dog be removed from the apartment building because the kid was so afraid of it, she wouldn't go out of the apartment through the front door. I often wonder if that is how the situation would have ended up had the owner just apologised and made sure that the dog was carried out of the apartment when it's going for a walk as opposed to letting it run out alongside the owner.

Sittingpretty · 04-07-2016 11:02PM

Toots wrote: »

OP were you going out for a walk with your dog when this happened - he escaped off the lead? If so, you could be on shaky ground because GSDs should be muzzled and on a short leash when out; that's a legal requirement. If the dog had been muzzled, at least he wouldn't have been able to 'nip' the child. If the collar is loose enough that the dog can get his head out of it, consider either tightening the collar, or getting a harness that he can't wriggle out of.

How you react to this is crucial - don't be dismissive of the parents, make sure any and all medical expenses for the child are covered. Get a muzzle for the dog. How old is the child in question? I'm not saying this in a hysterical kind of way, but being chased and then injured by a dog would be hugely traumatising for a child. Also if I was the parents and the owner of the dog displayed an "ah it's grand, it's barely a scratch" that would be red rag to a bull. If the owner was apologetic etc it would go a long way. Although the parents can't insist the dog be euthanised, they could potentially sue you.

To give you an example of a similar scenario, a person in my apartment complex had a small bichon and one day as it was being brought out for a walk (not on a lead) it nipped/bit one of the kids that lived in that block as she was passing. The skin was broken. Her parents went to the owner about it and he basically said it didn't happen, was very dismissive of the whole thing. The kid was brought to hospital where it was confirmed as an animal bite and she had to get a tetanus shot, etc. The parents took legal action and last year it went to court and the child was awarded something like €15 or €20k, the judge also ordered that the dog be removed from the apartment building because the kid was so afraid of it, she wouldn't go out of the apartment through the front door. I often wonder if that is how the situation would have ended up had the owner just apologised and made sure that the dog was carried out of the apartment when it's going for a walk as opposed to letting it run out alongside the owner.

Excellent (and measured) advice.

FortySeven · 04-07-2016 11:16PM

muddypaws wrote: »

You said that he had always nipped though, so for responsible breeders, that would have been enough not to have bred from him.

No, in the UK dogs aren't automatically destroyed if they bite.

It was my parents doing the breeding. They did a lot of it and were pretty responsible, you cannot mitigate some things in life. He was always playful.

I'm fairly sure dogs in the UK that bite a human out of character to the breed must be destroyed. I'm not 100% on that but I will check with my sister out of interest. She will know for sure.

muddypaws · 04-07-2016 11:24PM

FortySeven wrote: »

It was my parents doing the breeding. They did a lot of it and were pretty responsible, you cannot mitigate some things in life. He was always playful.

I'm fairly sure dogs in the UK that bite a human out of character to the breed must be destroyed. I'm not 100% on that but I will check with my sister out of interest. She will know for sure.

What do you mean out of character to the breed?

LozAnn · 04-07-2016 11:25PM

Sorry but I wasn't very clear about all the details about what happened as I didn't want to write a long post. So to clear things up...the dog was being taken for his walk, as the front door was opened he pulled and his lead broke, resulting in him running off down the road...not necessarily after the children...the child had scrapes on his arm and he was bleeding from this....not pouring blood...just blood on the skin. I immediately went to see the parents, and apologised. The child was taken to hospital and i have offered to cover any medical expenses, and I have asked the parents to keep me informed of how the child is. They have not told me what the hospital said and they are gone away so I can't ask them, so I don't know if the hospital have deemed it a bite or not. I know that the parents are shocked and upset, as I would be if it were my child. I'm not trying to get out of my responsibilities to the family but just wanted to get some advice with regard to my dog. My dog is 19 months.

Cherry Blossom · 04-07-2016 11:47PM

We are not in the UK. We are in the ROI. We are also in the Animals and Pets forum, not parenting or after hours.

Now with my mod hat on:
Threads about incidents like these always attract people who have never posted here before. People who have have had some bad experience themselves or have a fear of dogs or simply dislike dogs for some reason and have a zero tolerance extreme view of what should happen. In this instance, the OP describes what seems to be a very minor incident followed by an extreme over-reaction by the child's parents. If you happen to have one of the extreme views described, I think you really should give some consideration as to whether you are in the right forum.

Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks.

Some advice needed re:dog nipping(?) a child

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