Some advice needed re:dog nipping(?) a child

FortySeven

muddypaws wrote: »

What do you mean out of character to the breed?

It's terminology from the dangerous dogs act. I take it to mean a dog that attacks which is not prone to doing so. Eg not a pit bull or other such recognised dangerous breeds.

I texted my sister and I stand corrected on the UK law. A dog that bites will be destroyed at the discretion of the police. Not automatically. Discretion would be based on the severity of the attack and what or who was attacked. This case would be a hard one to call.

Edit. After reading ops last post I realise this is not a confirmed bite. My apologies op. I'm guessing if this was a bite you would have been visited straight after the hospital. Sounds more like the child fell over from your new description.?

I would still advocate putting the dog down if it bit and drew blood. If the child just fell over or was knocked over by a young, playful dog then I would placate the parents and buy the strongest lead you can find.

sleepysniper

Not going to reiterate what's been said above as you seem to understand both sides of the story.

But just to say - don't put the dog down. Would be cruel, harsh and not justified to do so IMHO.

retro:electro

LozAnn wrote: »

Sorry but I wasn't very clear about all the details about what happened as I didn't want to write a long post. So to clear things up...the dog was being taken for his walk, as the front door was opened he pulled and his lead broke, resulting in him running off down the road...not necessarily after the children...the child had scrapes on his arm and he was bleeding from this....not pouring blood...just blood on the skin. I immediately went to see the parents, and apologised. The child was taken to hospital and i have offered to cover any medical expenses, and I have asked the parents to keep me informed of how the child is. They have not told me what the hospital said and they are gone away so I can't ask them, so I don't know if the hospital have deemed it a bite or not. I know that the parents are shocked and upset, as I would be if it were my child. I'm not trying to get out of my responsibilities to the family but just wanted to get some advice with regard to my dog. My dog is 19 months.

Are you sure the child was even bitten? He could have fallen over from running away and have cuts from that. All I'm saying is make sure you have the correct terminology of the wound from the hospital report. It's one thing to blame the dog for frightening the child and causing him to fall, it's entirely different if the dog actually bit the child.

muddypaws

FortySeven wrote: »

It's terminology from the dangerous dogs act. I take it to mean a dog that attacks which is not prone to doing so. Eg not a pit bull or other such recognised dangerous breeds.

I texted my sister and I stand corrected on the UK law. A dog that bites will be destroyed at the discretion of the police. Not automatically. Discretion would be based on the severity of the attack and what or who was attacked. This case would be a hard one to call.

We don't have a dangerous dogs act, and there is no such thing as a recognised dangerous breed.

If you mean the UK dangerous dogs act, can you please put up a link to where it states that in the legislation.

pablo128

I think the use of a muzzle outside the house would go a long way towards placating the parents in this case.

TheChizler

It might have technically been a bite but my Cav also technically bit me when she found a bit of bone on a walk and I stupidly stuck my fingers between her back teeth to fish it out when she was crunching it.

What matters is the amount of aggression involved, and since we're talking about a GSD I suspect that if there was any aggression involved this would be a very different thread. Clearly some more training is required but to me it doesn't sound like they were trying to hurt the child, so what would be the point in having them put down if it was accidental? Any dog can hurt a child accidentally, there's no reason to believe this dog is any more likely to do that again than another dog who has never done it.

OP are you sure it involved the mouth? Could it have been a scratch from claws or falling?

Vizzy

^^^^^^
This !!

I have had dogs for the last 40 years - Setters, Labs, Golden Retriever and currently a Vizsla and a German Pointer.

EVERY dog has a prey drive !! How they manifest it is the key though.

If I were to euthanize a dog every time I was bitten (playfully) or scratched I would have garden full of graves.
I have been bitten twice( not by my own dogs) and both times it was my fault.

Much of the prey drive has been bred out of most breeds with the exception of dogs that are either bred to hunt or to guard.

My current 2 are extremely placid and loveable, but I'd never put myself in a situation that they could harm me ( e.g putting my hand near their food while they are feeding, letting them lick my face etc) Have a friend who is now missing a finger due to stupidity.

Both mine are big boisterous dogs who could knock me over in "playful jumping" and they would have no problem bringing a child to the ground but I'm 100% positive that there would be no malice in this.

My take on this instance ( and I am neither pro or anti the OPs dog) is that if the dog did actually bite the child, then it may have been in playfulness rather than malice.
Again if the dog did bite the child, I would be a bit reticent of having them around children, muzzle or not. Unfortunately, the dog will be known in the neighbourhood as "the vicious dog", whether this is true or not.
Maybe consider rehoming the dog to an environment where there are no children (e.g. rural setting on a farm maybe), but don't even consider euthanizing the dog at this stage.

Hope that this works out for you OP.

Toots

LozAnn wrote: »

Sorry but I wasn't very clear about all the details about what happened as I didn't want to write a long post. So to clear things up...the dog was being taken for his walk, as the front door was opened he pulled and his lead broke, resulting in him running off down the road...not necessarily after the children...the child had scrapes on his arm and he was bleeding from this....not pouring blood...just blood on the skin. I immediately went to see the parents, and apologised. The child was taken to hospital and i have offered to cover any medical expenses, and I have asked the parents to keep me informed of how the child is. They have not told me what the hospital said and they are gone away so I can't ask them, so I don't know if the hospital have deemed it a bite or not. I know that the parents are shocked and upset, as I would be if it were my child. I'm not trying to get out of my responsibilities to the family but just wanted to get some advice with regard to my dog. My dog is 19 months.

First thing I'd recommend you do tomorrow is go and get the dog a muzzle. He HAS to have one, by law. If the dog was muzzled, there wouldn't be a question mark over whether or not this is a bite wound, and while it still wouldn't be an ideal situation, it would be a lot better than now. Also regarding a lead, get a good strong chain - not a choke chain - just a strong, short chain lead.

If the Gardaí say that they can't force you to put the dog down, then they can't, but as I mentioned above, you could still find yourself being sued. You've done the right thing by apologising to the parents, wait until they get back and then get in touch to ask how the child is. I would avoid asking questions like "Did the hospital say it was a bite wound?" because at the end of the day, the child was injured as a result of your dog. If it wasn't a bite, they may be a bit calmer.

In the meantime, as I said, get the dog a muzzle and a good strong chain lead. Then also organise obedience classes, which will teach things like not pulling on the lead and coming back when called. At 19 months your dog is probably still at the excited pup stage of pulling on the lead like a mad yoke when he's going for his walks. You need to work hard to stop that, especially if he's strong enough to snap a lead. Book these ASAP, if you can get one that starts before the parents are back from holidays all the better, if not, at least having one booked shows you're taking it seriously and putting safeguards in place.

You need to make sure you take every measure possible to ensure this doesn't happen again, firstly because there's a safety issue and also if you end up in court at least it can't be argued that you ignored the situation.

FortySeven

muddypaws wrote: »

We don't have a dangerous dogs act, and there is no such thing as a recognised dangerous breed.

If you mean the UK dangerous dogs act, can you please put up a link to where it states that in the legislation.

I know you don't have such an act, that is why I prefaced my original comment with 'in the UK'


Here is the excerpt from the dandrous dogs act. I'm on my phone so apologies for the crudeness.


If the animal does not belong to a dangerous species then liability depends on a number of criteria, including whether at the time of the bite the animal was displaying characteristics not normally found in animals of that species or not normally found except at particular times or in particular circumstances. The owner would also need to have knowledge of those characteristics.

muddypaws

FortySeven wrote: »

I know you don't have such an act, that is why I prefaced my original comment with 'in the UK'


Here is the excerpt from the dandrous dogs act. I'm on my phone so apologies for the crudeness.


If the animal does not belong to a dangerous species then liability depends on a number of criteria, including whether at the time of the bite the animal was displaying characteristics not normally found in animals of that species or not normally found except at particular times or in particular circumstances. The owner would also need to have knowledge of those characteristics.

If you can't post the link because you're on the phone, could you maybe say which section it is, as I'm unaware of the UK law referring to dogs being of different species, breeds possibly, but surely all dogs are of the same species? Sounds like there is a different act that you are quoting, about animals in general?

A quick google shows that you are talking about the 1971 Animals Act in the UK, which isn't just about dogs. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/22

FrostyJack

muddypaws wrote: »

A quick google shows that you are talking about the 1971 Animals Act in the UK, which isn't just about dogs. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/22

The old saying if a cow draws blood, put it down.........

The dog didn't savage anyone, the only worry here is if the child is traumatised by the incident. It is up to the parents and the OP to try reduce this by meeting the dog in calm situation for example. If the parents are like some of the people posting on this thread though they are probably buying metal shutters for their windows and 20 foot walls all around so they may not be so co-operative. The suggestions above are what I would do, muzzle it in public, make sure there are fail safes for slipping the lead and I wouldn't walk it when the kids are around for the next while. You don't want to aggravate the situation.

sillysmiles

To me, as just another random internet stranger, this reads as an over excited dog that wanted to play and doesn't know how, or what is appropriate. I can understand why the kids ran, strange large dog...but the chances are that the dog wasn't malicious.

However, if you honestly think in your heart of hearts that there was any aggression in that action, you need to seriously consider what to do. I would also say that if you think there was aggression and you are considering rehoming, the new owner has to know the full story as otherwise you are just moving the problem somewhere else and putting other people in danger.

But from what you have described, no way would I euthanize my dog.

kathleen37

I would suggest the first thing you do is get a muzzle for your dog.

We've always had Alsatians, and when they get boisterous I've had more problems with claws than teeth.

It sounds as though your dog would also need some proper training - as had there been proper recall, it wouldn't have headed off in the first place.

I think you've done the right thing so far. I doubt this will go away so i would suggest keeping an eye out for the parents when they return and approach them and ask how the kiddie is doing, are there any medical expenses etc.

If you can prove you've put in measures to stop this happening again (muzzle plus proper training) hopefully that should help calm the situation.

Having said that, you can see by some of the reactions in this thread that people react completely differently to stuff like this. You may find you have to take legal advice if they insist on your dog being put to sleep.

I hope this gets sorted, this isn't the dogs fault, but it looks like you're aware of that.

Good luck.

Ms Doubtfire1

Just seeing this.
So, the lead broke, and there were kids outside, running and screaming in play, right? Your dog is 19 month-still an adolescent. Most likely wanted to join in the play. Quite obviously, a 19 month shepherd is physically almost fully grown and an impressive dog. Kids scampered...dog thinks: ow fun..lets play catch me...
So he/she did.

My lurcher does that with my cats (he gets a big scratch on his nose as thanks).

Dog did what a young dog is inclined to do. Not his/her fault. Get a stronger lead. Do NOT put your dog down.

ShaShaBear

I got a nasty puncture on my hand last week swinging my hand behind me to hand my partner a bank card. Mid swing, my hand connected with my dog's open mouth. I still have bruising and a mark.
But Opie most certainly did not bite me, and I do not need to be a nurse to tell you that

On topic, I would reiterate what other sensible folk have said. Get a well-fitting muzzle as per the law and start working on some lead training for your dog. Pulling at the door is common, but if he can snap his lead, you need to work on this.

Any dog interested (or previously encouraged) in any sort of "chase play" is obviously going to give chase to a bunch of screaming children and unless the bite was witnessed directly, you cannot assume that the dog wasn't provoked or pushed to a bite, if indeed a bite happened at all. With this in mind, you simply need to learn to control your dog better and work with someone to improve his general manners. Definitely not have him killed!

kathleen37

I'd recommend this muzzle - as it doesn't restrict the mouth and allows drinking. You need to check sizings.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BASKERVILLE-ULTRA-MUZZLE-size-4/dp/B00596TFVA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1467796182&sr=8-2&keywords=box+muzzle

Toots

kathleen37 wrote: »

I'd recommend this muzzle - as it doesn't restrict the mouth and allows drinking. You need to check sizings.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BASKERVILLE-ULTRA-MUZZLE-size-4/dp/B00596TFVA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1467796182&sr=8-2&keywords=box+muzzle

I've got that one for my staffie/lab cross and it's definitely the best one we've used. You can also give treats through it, so it's a great one for wearing while training.

I would n't destroy the dog. I would how ever, muzzle it as per the laws until such time as I could get it re homed. Keeping the dog is a fingers up to the other family. Try to see their point of view.

AryaStark

Deleted User wrote: »

I would n't destroy the dog. I would how ever, muzzle it as per the laws until such time as I could get it re homed. Keeping the dog is a fingers up to the other family. Try to see their point of view.

I don't think they should have to get rid of their dog.

It was an unfortunate accident and once the op makes sure that the dog does not get loose and pays any medical bills then I think its a lesson learned.

Hopefully the child is ok and the parents are not too worked up about it.

AryaStark

AryaStark wrote: »

I don't think they should have to get rid of their dog.

It was an unfortunate accident and once the op makes sure that the dog does not get loose and pays any medical bills then I think its a lesson learned.

Hopefully the child is ok and the parents are not too worked up about it.

I understand what you are saying, this forum is animals and pets so the sympathy is the dog. imagine the other family post in the parent and child forum how their child was attacked. I try to be between, where the reasoned lies.

ShaShaBear

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, this forum is animals and pets so the sympathy is the dog. imagine the other family post in the parent and child forum how their child was attacked. I try to be between, where the reasoned lies.

If a full-grown German Shepherd attacked a child, he wouldn't have a graze and a minor amount of blood. He would probably be missing appendages at the very least. The child was most certainly not attacked, as a dog with the full intent of doing damage will always do damage. Hence why she shouldn't have to get rid of her dog and hence why we are directing sympathy towards him

borderlinemeath

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, this forum is animals and pets so the sympathy is the dog. imagine the other family post in the parent and child forum how their child was attacked. I try to be between, where the reasoned lies.

I think you'll find that most of the posters who are giving reasoned advice are parents too. But parents with a greater understanding of dogs and how they behave and are not prone to hysteria and hyperbole.

Given the OPs account of what happened and the relatively minor injuries suffered by the child in the incident, it's important to note that this was NOT an attack. If it was an attack the child would most probably require hospitalisation and stitches rather than heading off on holidays with his parents.

AryaStark

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, this forum is animals and pets so the sympathy is the dog. imagine the other family post in the parent and child forum how their child was attacked. I try to be between, where the reasoned lies.

It has already been said quite a few times in this thread that the child was not attacked.
While I do not know what actually happened, I do know that if a big dog attacked a child there would be a lot of damage and the child would be in hospital.

I feel for the parents because if anything happens to a child your first priority is to fight for them and protect them.
I would hope that by now the parents have calmed down and realise that the situation while not great is not that big a deal.
It will be very important that the child is not terrorised by adults and understands that running and screaming is not the best way to act when a dog is running towards them.

eoinzy2000

Dog needs to be destroyed. No question. Chased down and bit a child, wheres the middle ground?

Kovu

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Dog needs to be destroyed. No question. Chased down and bit a child, wheres the middle ground?

You're making it sound like the dog went on a rampage and went straight to attack kids. This is not what happened, from what we are being told the child got a mark or cut from the dog (we don't know if it was a bit or a nip or a mark from running into the kid face first) in whatever scrimmage happened.
Where's the middle ground?? Certainly not in destroying a dog for an incident which has no concrete evidence of aggression against children.

Ms Doubtfire1

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Dog needs to be destroyed. No question. Chased down and bit a child, wheres the middle ground?

:mad:

Oh dear...probably in: he did 'NOT chase down and bit'. owner needs a stronger lead thats all

eoinzy2000

I understand your push toward saving the dog. You are obviously not going to destroy it. In that case you need to permanently muzzle the animal and never let it near people.

Kovu

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I understand your push toward saving the dog. You are obviously not going to destroy it. In that case you need to permanently muzzle the animal and never let it near people.

Or you could take the less hysterical approach with the dog (who seems to have no history of any aggression that we're told of) and attend training classes, get a secure run for the garden so he cannot escape even if he gets free and muzzle him when on walks.

Ms Doubtfire1

Kovu wrote: »

Or you could take the less hysterical approach with the dog (who seems to have no history of any aggression that we're told of) and attend training classes, get a secure run for the garden so he cannot escape even if he gets free and muzzle him when on walks.

+1. and maybe poster should take some lessons in general understanding of dog training before sentencing a living being to death for something totally not the animals fault.>has steam coming out of her ears< :mad::mad::mad:

cocker5

Dog needs to be destroyed. No question. Chased down and bit a child, wheres the middle ground?

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I understand your push toward saving the dog. You are obviously not going to destroy it. In that case you need to permanently muzzle the animal and never let it near people.

hysterical / dramatic much???

Ridiculous posting way OTT