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Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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  • #182
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    FURET wrote: »
    Does it matter that we never saw who opened the kennel doors? Yes. Yes it does matter. Ramsey was sitting there for how long with the kennel doors wide open. And nothing happened. And then purely for dramatic effect, the hounds slowly emerge just when Sansa would want them to. This makes no logical sense. If it made logical sense, no one would mind that we never saw the doors being opened.
    I'm completely meh about this. There's a kennel master in Winterfell (last one was fed to the dogs, so presumably the post was refilled) who would have been told to let them in. Why do we need to see this?
    FURET wrote: »
    Another annoying thing for me is the Night King's name. Who established his name and when? I get that the Raven may have told Bran off-screen; but how do Jon Davos know it too? And Why would Lyanna Mormont believe Davos when he tells her the Dead are coming? Are we to assume that the Old Bear wrote a letter or something about his own brush with a wight? OK - well put it in! Less rubbish jokes at Mereen please, and more detail. The Devil is in the detail. And characters' reactions to details reveal a lot about the character and helps them to grow.
    The Night's King is legend in the North. Old Nan used tell the Stark children stories about the distant past. Even people from the south knew those stories but being at a distant remove would have held those stories as fabricated nonsense rather than the more immediate and intrinsic status they would have held for northeners. Tyrion dismissing them as 'Grumkins' is a case in point.


  • #183
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    The North didn't Remember. :(:(:(:(:(:(


  • #184
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,735 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    The sheer volume of nit-picking going on astounds me. I appreciate tings like Arya in episode 8 was out of hand, but come on, talking about who let the dogs out, why they only came out at a certain point etc. If you want to pick holes in a show, you will always be able to, or you could ya know, just enjoy it for what it is!

    As for it being predictable, it was always going to happen to a certain extent. What made the show/books unpredictable in the first place was GRRM's penchant for happily killing off characters that seemed untouchable.

    The story has reached a point now where it is difficult to do that, particularly for the TV show as people are invested in the characters. Also, think of how many seasons it has taken to develop characters like Jon, Sansa, Tyrion etc. if they were killed off it would take too long to replace them in terms of the show.


  • #185
    2ndcoming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,605 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    FURET wrote: »
    Does it matter that we never saw who opened the kennel doors? Yes. Yes it does matter. Ramsey was sitting there for how long with the kennel doors wide open. And nothing happened. And then purely for dramatic effect, the hounds slowly emerge just when Sansa would want them to. This makes no logical sense. If it made logical sense, no one would mind that we never saw the doors being opened.

    My benchmark for excellence is The Sopranos. That show was driven by conversation and details. In season 3, there's a 10-second scene where Tony comes home late after being with a mistress. He goes down to his basement, smells perfume on his clothes, and puts them into the washing machine before going up to his wife. 10 seconds.

    A whole 10 or 11 episodes later, one day Carmela is at the washing machine, takes one of Tony's shirts out of the machine and smells it. Boom! This scene was also around 10 seconds long. This is the sort of simple detail missing from GoT.

    I love the Sopranos but it's a very different beast to Game of Thrones, almost too different to bother comparing them, but the scene you're referring to is actually very similar plotwise to the shot during the burning scene of Shireen holding the stag Davos carved here, and then a full season later Davos happening to find the charred remains of the stag. Boom!

    Edit: I'm only half awake, didn't even read the stuff about the kennel doors at the top. Madness, but lots of others have addressed it.


  • #186
    duffman13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,247 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Why did Sansa not allow the army of the Vale to join forces earlier ? The predictable 'arriving just in time to save the day' trope was annoying.
    And Jon basically sacrificed all of his troops because Ramsay managed to piss him off by killing Rickon (which Sansa warned him about), so far for the great commander.

    I think it was extremely calculated thinking, its fairly clear Ramsey is very intelligent in the art of battle. He will fight when the odds are stacked to him, he meet Stannis in open battle as his army has effectively been cut in half and met the Wilding army as he had a huge numerical advantage, also wouldn't fight Jon in one on one combat.

    The Knights of the Vale would completely change how Ramsey would have approached a potential battle, faced with the Vale aswell as the wildlings, Ramsey sits behind the walls if Winterfell and waits a siege out very easily. From a battle point of view, the Knights of the Vale only enter the fray after Ramsey commits all his forces.

    Tactically it's an extremely smart move from Sansa/Littlefinger/commander as it doesn't give Ramsey an opportunity to fall back to Winterfell with a large force. It's extremely cold of Sansa yes however shes not the Sansa of season 1 so I don't think it's out of character for the post Ramsey Sansa


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  • #187
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    The sheer volume of nit-picking going on astounds me. I appreciate tings like Arya in episode 8 was out of hand, but come on, talking about who let the dogs out, why they only came out at a certain point etc. If you want to pick holes in a show, you will always be able to, or you could ya know, just enjoy it for what it is!

    As for it being predictable, it was always going to happen to a certain extent. What made the show/books unpredictable in the first place was GRRM's penchant for happily killing off characters that seemed untouchable.

    The story has reached a point now where it is difficult to do that, particularly for the TV show as people are invested in the characters. Also, think of how many seasons it has taken to develop characters like Jon, Sansa, Tyrion etc. if they were killed off it would take too long to replace them in terms of the show.
    +1

    I'm not sure why people don't see that this is a story. Without leading characters there's no story.

    "Everybody died, The End". :rolleyes:


  • #188
    FURET
    Closed Accounts Posts: 685 ✭✭✭FURET


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I'm completely meh about this. There's a kennel master in Winterfell (last one was fed to the dogs, so presumably the post was refilled) who would have been told to let them in. Why do we need to see this?

    It makes no logical sense. At all.

    The Night's King is legend in the North. Old Nan used tell the Stark children stories about the distant past. Even people from the south knew those stories but being at a distant remove would have held those stories as fabricated nonsense rather than the more immediate and intrinsic status they would have held for northeners. Tyrion dismissing them as 'Grumkins' is a case in point.

    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"


  • #189
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    FURET wrote: »
    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"

    Out of any of the northern Houses, the Mormont's would take this kind of story more seriously, given that Joer Mormont was Lord Commander.

    The Nights King too could actually be a Stark or am I remembering that wrong, or has the show confused things now? The Nights King was a man that took a woman with pale white skin as a lover/wife, who people believed was an Other. Together they starting doing "evil" things and the Northerners (and maybe The Wildings too) had to defeat him and he held one of the castles along the wall and is the reason that the castles no longer have southern defences.

    The Nights King in the show seems more like the first White Walker, in the book he was a man that became one. Am I remembering this right?


  • #190
    homerun_homer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭homerun_homer


    I just presumed the hounds were asleep and gradually awoke to leave their cages, after they had been opened (off screen) for Sansa's showdown with Ramsay.


  • #191
    duffman13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,247 ✭✭✭duffman13


    FURET wrote: »
    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"

    If one house is gonna believe in the nights king or white walkers surely it's house Mormont. I'm sure the last commander of the nights watch told his family of the strange goings on at the wall. Also Jons position as Lord Commander and the fact he has long claw might make him more trustworthy. LC Mormont sent a raven to the houses of the 7 kingdoms looking for men and informing them of the danger of the white walkers. I'm sure his own family trusted his word that there was such thing.


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  • #192
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    As for it being predictable, it was always going to happen to a certain extent. What made the show/books unpredictable in the first place was GRRM's penchant for happily killing off characters that seemed untouchable.

    There seems to be an assumption that the show is about killing off characters and that's it. If it's not killing off main characters it's predictable.

    However I did find the whole Arya getting stabbed to be bad storytelling. It seemed to play up on the audience's view of the show rather than be consistent within the show.

    Likewise I'm not sure what the point of the Umbers making a big deal about not swearing an oath to Ramsey was about. It seemed again more to make the audience think it was a plot to betray Ramsey.

    I guess what I'm saying is the show a few times now seems to play up to the audience when there's no logical story reason to do so.


  • #193
    Lone Stone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    ehmm i cant help but feel i missed a new book or something ? the last one i read was jon getting stabby stabbed at the end ?


  • #194
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    FURET wrote: »
    It makes no logical sense. At all.
    The ol Chewbacca defence.


  • #195
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Lone Stone wrote:
    ehmm i cant help but feel i missed a new book or something ? the last one i read was jon getting stabby stabbed at the end ?


    You didn't miss a new book, but you may have missed this entire season :)


  • #196
    2ndcoming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,605 ✭✭✭2ndcoming


    Lone Stone wrote: »
    ehmm i cant help but feel i missed a new book or something ? the last one i read was jon getting stabby stabbed at the end ?

    Yes and the show has revealed that, as widely expected, Jon will be revived by Melisandre early in the next book. It's called The Winds of Winter and should be out any decade now.


  • #197
    Rosie Rant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Rosie Rant


    I loved the shot of Davos rubbing his stumps as he watched Melisandre, just like he used to play with his severed fingers that he used to keep in the pouch around his neck for luck. Edit: my mistake, he was holding the stag he carved in his hands :p

    Sansa is Lady Stoneheart. She didn't die in the traditional sense but the last little bit of the daydreaming, innocent Sansa died on her wedding night and now she is cold and vengeful. Ramsey getting eaten by his own hounds was poetic justice, I couldn't help chuckling a little when he was trying to get the dog to sit down. I remember feeling some sympathy for Joffrey when he died but when Ramsey went, I felt only satisfaction.


  • #198
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    FURET wrote: »
    It makes no logical sense. At all.
    How is it illogical? Do you have the plans to the cell/kennel/dungeon he was held in?
    FURET wrote: »
    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"
    Bran recalled stories of the Night's King on his way north. He was said to be the thirteenth commander of the Nights Watch. Nan said he was a Stark and that his name was also Brandon.

    There's a lot more about him in the books.


  • #199
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Rosie Rant wrote: »
    Sansa is Lady Stoneheart. She didn't die in the traditional sense but the last little bit of the daydreaming, innocent Sansa died on her wedding night and now she is cold and vengeful. Ramsey getting eaten by his own hounds was poetic justice, I couldn't help chuckling a little when he was trying to get the dog to sit down. I remember feeling some sympathy for Joffrey when he died but when Ramsey went, I felt only satisfaction.

    I wanted one more look before Sansa walked out.

    Maybe a high pitched scream or something.


  • #200
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    I thought Jon had finally managed to end the long running theme of him dropping Longclaw everytime he fights, but he throws it away before laying the hurt down on Ramsey. Does anyone have any idea what this theme might even mean? I have no idea.


  • #201
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 936 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    FURET wrote: »
    It makes no logical sense. At all.

    It hardly mattered. Perhaps sansa opened them up prior to speaking with Ramsey. He was dead anyhow. If the hounds had failed in their poetic justice role, they could just have beheaded Ramsey (or flayed him bepending on how vicious/honourable they were feeling). The convenience doesn't have to be too high here.
    FURET wrote: »
    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"

    Yes, they should be doing a double-take at that, in a similar fashion to Ned in the opening of season 1. While they would be unlikely to be laughed out of it in the North, as they would be elsewhere in Westeros, it would most likely be "big news" talking about White Walkers and their supposed leader. The Boltons would have been contacted by the Night's Watch already, explaining the situation, but the same cannot be said of the other heads of houses. It's a bit of sloppiness to make conversations move faster.
    eeguy wrote: »
    I wanted one more look before Sansa walked out.

    Maybe a high pitched scream or something.


    I really wanted her to call him "bastard".


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  • #202
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I don't think that opinion is uncommon at all*, its not a necessarily a slight on the actors personally they are young and don't have a pedigree of roles in comparison to the journey men and women that fill many of the other roles.

    And I don't think its a gender thing as such, Maisie Williams/Arya or Michelle Fairley/Catyln don't/didn't receive that criticism from the fan community in terms of their acting and as I always mention Cersei steals her scenes. I think its if you aren't as invested in the Girrrrl Power trope the flaws in their performances stand out.
    Kit Harington is pretty weak too but he saves it with his action scenes.

    Nobody said it was a gender thing.


  • #203
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    Things that are not obvious like why the trebuchets on the ships didn't attack the dragons. Or why Dany arrived at Meereen 'just in the nick of time' despite asking Daario how many days march it was to Meereen just before reuniting with Drogon?

    It's ok if people are asking genuine questions, not so much when they're lighting the 'I'm a genius for spotting this plothole' neon sign over their heads.

    Do you actually think a trebuchet can be aimed quickly enough to hit a flying dragon?

    EDIT: Never mind, I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.


  • #204
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    duffman13 wrote: »

    Tactically it's an extremely smart move from Sansa/Littlefinger/commander as it doesn't give Ramsey an opportunity to fall back to Winterfell with a large force. It's extremely cold of Sansa yes however shes not the Sansa of season 1 so I don't think it's out of character for the post Ramsey Sansa

    pretty much but you just have to sit back and enjoy the ride when it comes to realism. How you manage to move an army from the vale to winterfell without anybody noticing is beyond me

    Same with the show taking the pish out of thormunds lack of tactical nous but then John Snow and Lord Fingerless don't know how to break out of an encirclement, especially with a f**king giant


  • #205
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    OhHiMark wrote: »
    Do you actually think a trebuchet can be aimed quickly enough to hit a flying dragon?

    EDIT: Never mind, I think I misinterpreted what you were saying.

    They'd probably have to steer the ship.


  • #206
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    FURET wrote: »
    Does it matter that we never saw who opened the kennel doors? Yes. Yes it does matter.

    Look I like to dissect the show as much as anyone but this is getting ridiculous
    It really doesn't matter who opened the kennel doors
    It would have ruined the shot of the dog slowly coming into focus as Ramsay slowly realises he is in with his starved hunting dogs


  • #207
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    eeguy wrote:
    Maybe a high pitched scream or something.


    You can hear gurgling as she's walking away, so I'm guessing they had his throat by then.


  • #208
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Rosie Rant wrote: »
    Sansa is Lady Stoneheart. She didn't die in the traditional sense but the last little bit of the daydreaming, innocent Sansa died on her wedding night and now she is cold and vengeful. Ramsey getting eaten by his own hounds was poetic justice, I couldn't help chuckling a little when he was trying to get the dog to sit down. I remember feeling some sympathy for Joffrey when he died but when Ramsey went, I felt only satisfaction.

    I couldn't help but think the same, especially with that evil smile she had when she left him to be eaten.

    That's not the Sansa we know, this is a cold, vengeful woman.


  • #209
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »
    Yes, they should be doing a double-take at that, in a similar fashion to Ned in the opening of season 1. While they would be unlikely to be laughed out of it in the North, as they would be elsewhere in Westeros, it would most likely be "big news" talking about White Walkers and their supposed leader. The Boltons would have been contacted by the Night's Watch already, explaining the situation, but the same cannot be said of the other heads of houses. It's a bit of sloppiness to make conversations move faster.
    As others have pointed out, she's a Mormont. Jeor Mormont is her grand-uncle (?) and would have been in contact with them as with the other Northern houses when looking for reinforcements after the White Walkers first made their appearance. Perhaps the other houses laughed it off (House Glover weren't particularly moved) but the Mormonts would have taken Jeor's Ravengrams seriously enough.


  • #210
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »
    First of all I really enjoyed the episode, it was epic television. Ramsey dying was bittersweet though. On one hand he deserved it and it was always going to happen, but on the other hand he was the best character in the history of the show IMO.

    The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable. Nobody good is dying anymore apart from some side characters. Jon should have died a dozen times last night, and it would have been fitting for the great Bolton Bastard to have killed him before Sansa got her wish and set his hounds on him.

    I predicted that someone good would die but they didn't. It's getting so predictable now!


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  • #211
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,734 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    eeguy wrote: »
    They'd probably have to steer the ship.
    And you can only steer a ship that's in motion. They were sitting ducks to an aerial attack and knew it. It just needed one to set an example.


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