Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

HamsterFace · 17-06-2016 09:14AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Let's not mention what was done to Alan Turing and countless other gay men in the U.S. and U.K.

No, lets, as it is rightfully condemned. As any form of sexual repression or repression of sexuality should be.

I just don't understand why this criticism, and the struggle for liberation and equality, should end at the borders of Islam.

MadsL · 17-06-2016 09:20AM

HamsterFace wrote: »

No, lets, as it is rightfully condemned. As any form of sexual repression or repression of sexuality should be.

I just don't understand why this criticism, and the struggle for liberation and equality, should end at the borders of Islam.

It really doesn't; all countries should catch up with enlightened attitudes to homosexuality. It took Ireland well over 100 years to catch up with Turkey. Amazing how impatient some people are on this forum for some other countries to catch up. An odd position from a society that was a slow learner for so many years.

MadsL · 17-06-2016 09:24AM

stefanovich wrote: »

Well if Sweden decided that supporting the right to abortion is part of their cultural identity then prevented any anti-abortion Catholics from emigrating is well within their rights.

Not sure what being Irish has to do with it.

I don't think you are sure what democracy has to do with it either. Cultures don't make laws, people voting do. Unless you live in a dictatorship, ah, spotted the unifying link yet? Not Islam, but tyranny.

Cienciano · 17-06-2016 09:27AM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If such a thing truly exists.

Considering there's well over a billion of them living just fine, I think we can safely say, it does.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 09:46AM

MadsL wrote: »

Dial it back to 1992 and there would be a little blob of red in Western Europe. Wonder which nation that would have been...??

None, as there has never been a situation in Europe other than during the nazi regime where the death penalty applied to anyone for being homosexual.

I'm not saying that Ireland's situation pretty 1992 was very good and it's an embarrassment that it was so late to the table with decriminalisation but it wasn't very unusual in those days.

Lots of countries around the English speaking world, including Australia didn't decriminalise homosexuality completely until 1997. Tasmania dragged its feet!

Ireland currently has one of the best situations legally and attitudinally to LGBT people that you'll find anywhere in the world. Even in opinion polling done by the EU it ranks in the top two in terms of attitudes to things like having absolutely no issues with openly gay people holding the highest offices in the land etc etc etc.

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 09:48AM

stefanovich wrote: »

Not wanting them all dead is part of Irish culture I would hope.

Perhaps culture was the wrong word to use. What I am saying is that a country is well within its right to limit or restrict access to people whose beliefs are against what values they generally promote.

The judge let the murderers of Declan Flynn off with a slap on the wrist in 1983 so it's safe to in my lifetime there were powerful people in Ireland who weren't too bothered if gay people were killed. Declan's death was the catalyst for change.
That event sparked the fight back by the gay community and it was hard fought.
Don't go looking at Ireland through rose tinted glasses just because we have marriage equality and act like it has always been some paradise of acceptance for gay people.
It wasn't. Far from it.
Most gay people either stayed deep in the closet or got the hell out. Because we couldn't live with the beliefs and values of the society we were born into.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 09:55AM

Unfortunately, we've had a few moronic judges. The 'gay panic' defence being accepted was far from unique to Ireland in those days sadly.

There's been a sea change in attitudes right across the west on gay rights. I honestly don't think that trying to tarnish modern Ireland which is genuinely one of the most progressive places in the world now on LGBT rights makes any sense at all.

A lot of bad and nasty crap happened in Ireland in the past from Magdalene laundries, to industrial schools, to symphysiotomy, to gay bashing being ignored, condoms banned, no divorce... etc etc

The common denominator: a nation hijacked by oppressive, powerful, religious conservatives. Was that representative of the Irish people? Probably not generally. You'd a weird political situation here in those days.

I would like Irelsnd in those days to Franco's Spain without the formal dictatorship.

The change has been as rapid and as dramatic as Spain. both countries are now at the forefront of very liberal policies on most things. Ireland still has that one legacy issue ; totally bizarre abortion legislation.

We're going way, way, way OT though and into a discussion on Irish political history which isn't really appropriate here I don't think anyway.

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 09:56AM

12Phase wrote: »

None, as there has never been a situation in Europe other than during the nazi regime where the death penalty applied to anyone for being homosexual.

I'm not saying that Ireland's situation pretty 1992 was very good and it's an embarrassment that it was so late to the table with decriminalisation but it wasn't very unusual in those days.

Lots of countries around the English speaking world, including Australia didn't decriminalise homosexuality completely until 1997. Tasmania dragged its feet!

Ireland currently has one of the best situations legally and attitudinally to LGBT people that you'll find anywhere in the world. Even in opinion polling done by the EU it ranks in the top two in terms of attitudes to things like having absolutely no issues with openly gay people holding the highest offices in the land etc etc etc.

So being chemically castrated, imprisoned, beaten to death and your murderers given suspended sentences, thrown out by your family, classified as mentally ill, living a life of fear is all ok because the State didn't actively seek your death?

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 10:01AM

12Phase wrote: »

Unfortunately, we've had a few moronic judges. The 'gay panic' defence being accepted was far from unique to Ireland in those days sadly.

There's been a sea change in attitudes right across the west on gay rights. I honestly don't think that trying to tarnish modern Ireland which is genuinely one of the most progressive places in the world now on LGBT rights makes any sense at all.

A lot of bad and nasty crap happened in Ireland in the past from Magdalene laundries, to industrial schools, to symphysiotomy, to gay bashing being ignored, condoms banned, no divorce... etc etc

The common denominator: a nation hijacked by oppressive, powerful, religious conservatives. Was that representative of the Irish people? Probably not generally. You'd a weird political situation here in those days.

You cannot dismiss it as one 'moronic' judge - he was acting within the law as some many judges still do when it comes to sexual assault/domestic violence caes today. The judges don't write the laws -they interprete them. Irish governments wrote those laws and the Irish people kept voting for those politicians.

I grew up in those day as it wasn't a 'weird political situation' - it was Irish society and Irish people allowed it to happen so yes - it was representative.

When Irish people had enough it began to change but that is only in the last 2 decades. And change happened because people fought for it.

RDM_83 again · 17-06-2016 10:05AM

Back to the topic, has anything at all came out, now that we appear to know slightly more about the killers background, that indicates that Right wing/ fundamentalist Christian rhetoric in the United States would have had any influence on him?

12Phase · 17-06-2016 10:10AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So being chemically castrated, imprisoned, beaten to death and your murderers given suspended sentences, thrown out by your family, classified as mentally ill, living a life of fear is all ok because the State didn't actively seek your death?

Would you please stop twisting what I'm saying.

The attitudes to homosexuality in those days were a disgrace and Ireland was living in the 1950s in the 1980s in many respects.

What I'm saying is that no Western European country ever had a situation where someone was given the sentence for being gay. Several countries today elsewhere do have that situation.

I think by throwing in that in the past other countries, that currently have a very strongly positive environment for LGBT, people also had histories with non existent gay rights doesn't really add to the argument that what's going back on in certain states around the world, a systematic legally enforced attack on gay people is acceptable.

If anything, the fact that Ireland, Britain, Australia, most of the US and plenty of other western nations moved over a half century to 75 years from a very, very poor situation for gay people to mostly a very positive one, should be something that shows that change is possible.

I see this like the establishment of women's rights or the African American civil rights moment in the 20th century etc etc.. sexism and racism became unacceptable when people began to see why those attitudes were so wrong.
Homophobia is going through a parallel process, but all of these things follow a similar path.

Unfortunately, humanity took a long time to snap out of the dark ages and sadly, some places seem to be rapidly running and being pushed back into them again.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 10:21AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You cannot dismiss it as one 'moronic' judge - he was acting within the law as some many judges still do when it comes to sexual assault/domestic violence caes today. The judges don't write the laws -they interprete them. Irish governments wrote those laws and the Irish people kept voting for those politicians.

I grew up in those day as it wasn't a 'weird political situation' - it was Irish society and Irish people allowed it to happen so yes - it was representative.

When Irish people had enough it began to change but that is only in the last 2 decades. And change happened because people fought for it.

Look, I'm not dismissing anything. Ireland was a backwards hellhole for a very long time. Across a whole load of areas.

It didn't however ever have the death penalty for gay people. What it did have was a totally dismissive judiciary and no gay rights. Similar situations applied all over the world a few decades earlier but Ireland was still firmly in the mid 1950s by the 1980s.

It's still crazy that it would deny access to cancer treatment or force a rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term is frankly still absolutely mind blowing weird.

All I'm saying is that there has been a generally (with a handful of exceptions) very, very bad attitude to LGBT people. There still is in many places.

I mean just look at Brokeback Mountain and you get an idea how much attitudes changed. Horrific gay bashing murder depicted in that. Unthinkable now, but go back a few decades and this kind of thing was going on. That movie is representing attitudes in 1960s USA.

It's still happening in Russia and elsewhere.

The next phase up on that scale is the red countries where being gay will literally get you killed directly by the state. That's a whole other level of LGBT attack and really only the nazi regime in Europe hit that extreme.

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 10:22AM

12Phase wrote: »

Would you please stop twisting what I'm saying.

The attitudes to homosexuality in those days were a disgrace and Ireland was living in the 1950s in the 1980s in many respects.

What I'm saying is that no Western European country ever had a situation where someone was given the sentence for being gay. Several countries today elsewhere do have that situation.

I think by throwing in that in the past other countries, that currently have a very strongly positive environment for LGBT, people also had histories with non existent gay rights doesn't really add to the argument that what's going back on in certain states around the world, a systematic legally enforced attack on gay people is acceptable.

If anything, the fact that Ireland, Britain, Australia, most of the US and plenty of other western nations moved over a half century to 75 years from a very, very poor situation for gay people to mostly a very positive one, should be something that shows that change is possible.

I see this like the establishment of women's rights or the African American civil rights moment in the 20th century etc etc.. sexism and racism became unacceptable when people began to see why those attitudes were so wrong.
Homophobia is going through a parallel process, but all of these things follow a similar path.

Unfortunately, humanity took a long time to snap out of the dark ages and sadly, some places seem to be rapidly running and being pushed back into them again.

I am not twisting anything.

I am pointing out that your view of the West is rose tinted.
Yes - change happened in recent decades but concerted efforts continue to reverse those changes - remember Thatcher's Clause 28? or the hysteria over 'The Gay Plague'? I do. I lived through them.

Yes -things are currently better in the West (some U.S. States excepted) but that does not mean we should be complacent.

Yes- generally in Muslim countries being gay is something to hide deep deep in the closet such is the level of official hatred-but that exists also in some Christian countries like Uganda.

Nobody is saying Islam is 'gay friendly' or defending Islam's view of homosexuality - what we are doing is saying many Christians share that view. And quite a few of those Christians are politically influential in the West.

That all need watching no matter what brand of Woo they spout to justify their hate.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 10:27AM

I'm not disagreeing with you on that but all I'm pointing out is that it's a whole other level of bad to actually have a situation where a state literally rounds up and kills gay people.

The countries highlighted in red actually do that or have legislation that allows them to.

My view of that is it should automatically trigger trade sanctions.

We all boycotted the old South African apartheid regime and we should be boycotting any state that will do that.

As a gay person myself I find it disturbing that we still have normal, friendly trade and diplomatic relations with nations that would quite literally arrest and kill me.

aloyisious · 17-06-2016 10:35AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Back to the topic, has anything at all came out, now that we appear to know slightly more about the killers background, that indicates that Right wing/ fundamentalist Christian rhetoric in the United States would have had any influence on him?

It could well be that he might have taken what some preachers and high profie personalities and politicians on the Anti-homosexual front have been saying. Bryan Fischer, Frank Graham (son of Billy), Pat Robertson, and the Westboro clan are high profile outspoken preachers with a definite anti-gay bias and make no bones about it. However, they are in the h'penny place compared to Scott Lively

Pat Robertson came out with this a few days, gay alliance with ISIS created Orlando...... ago:https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiKoYLf367NAhVmKcAKHYDrCMMQqQIIHjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.advocate.com%2Freligion%2F2016%2F6%2F15%2Fpat-robertson-gay-alliance-isis-created-orlando-massacre&usg=AFQjCNHIhXz7OpWcEG_VD83YrZBWp0qaag

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 10:35AM

12Phase wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you on that but all I'm pointing out is that it's a whole other level of bad to actually have a situation where a state literally rounds up and kills gay people.

The countries highlighted in red actually do that or have legislation that allows them to.

I'm not disagreeing that there are places in the world that I cannot (not that I want to...) go to because of my sexual orientation.
All I am saying is that Orlando has revealed how thin the veneer of acceptance is in parts of the West and the Gay community is all too aware of that.
We see our rights being eroded - they may not be looking for the death penalty (although it was US Christians behind the Ugandan Kill The Gays Bill) but they are looking to making our lives a living hell of insecurity and fear.
There are worst things than death.

Yes - the killer came from a Muslim background but none of us would have been surprised if he came from a Christian background and that is telling.

12Phase · 17-06-2016 10:39AM

No and I think that's a huge problem in the USA. They're once again letting religious fundamentalism set the agenda in the southern states in particular.

What annoys me intensely about that is also that the USA is supposed to be all about being secular, yet those politics seek to just ride roughshod over that very fundamental aspect of the constitution while practically worshipping the amendment on rights to bear arms.

A la carte constitutionalism at its best.

The Republican party has been playing with fire though by pandering increasingly to that extreme far right. It's just populism at is very worst. Whip up the fear and divide and conquer.

They're destroying the cohesiveness of American society, pulling out the social supports and pitting groups against each other.

It's toxic and horrible politics.

aloyisious · 17-06-2016 10:57AM

MadsL wrote: »

It really doesn't; all countries should catch up with enlightened attitudes to homosexuality. It took Ireland well over 100 years to catch up with Turkey. Amazing how impatient some people are on this forum for some other countries to catch up. An odd position from a society that was a slow learner for so many years.

It's probably because we learned so fast, coming out of the closet at a gallop almost as it were, that we wanted to shout the good news from the rooftops, that we've only now started to get our act together and realise that we STILL have a way to go.

Irish LGBT teachers only very recently (Dec 02 2015) got relief by way of an amendment from this: The Employment Equality Act, the very legislation that protects you from discrimination in the workplace, allowed LGBT teachers to be discriminated against in Ireland. The Act includes Section 37.1 – which was essentially a loophole allowing religious institutions, including denominational schools and hospitals, to discriminate against people who didn’t fit in with their “ethos”.

The T in LGBT covers a large segment of our population. Think of them and the use of toilets issue that has gotten a high profile recently. Remember that not all Trans-people are gay, lesbian or bi, that they are straight as well.

Edit. BTW, I like and agree with your post, take this as a YES for it.

Dyr · 17-06-2016 11:09AM

interesting perspective:

http://i0.wp.com/www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13407208_1150129685057177_2688019418184278113_n.jpg

12Phase · 17-06-2016 11:11AM

Bambi wrote: »

interesting perspective:

http://i0.wp.com/www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13407208_1150129685057177_2688019418184278113_n.jpg

The size, complexity and concentration of people at the venues also has a lot to do with that though.

There's a bit of a vicious cycle in the USA though. Without proper gun control everyone is assuming everyone else is armed. So, they want to be armed and it turns into an arm race with bigger and more weapons.

It's the same reason why the US police are so heavily armed and so aggressive. They can't assume someone is unarmed, even a little old granny at a traffic stop could potentially pull a gun.

You've also got an issue where even if you introduced gun control measures, they'll only apply to new guns. Existing guns (more guns in the USA than people!) aren't going to go away.

It's a very difficult to unwind situation that has been caused by pandering more and more to the gun lobby.

A major step forward would be getting military grade weapons off the market though. Even that step would make things just a bit safer at least in terms of mass casualties.

aloyisious · 17-06-2016 11:14AM

Bambi wrote: »

interesting perspective:

http://i0.wp.com/www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13407208_1150129685057177_2688019418184278113_n.jpg

I read somewhere that there were three other mass shootings in the US that day, so I googled for reports, thus this: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmuJaT6a7NAhVqCMAKHSK8D1sQFggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.com%2F2016%2F6%2F13%2F11923290%2Forlando-shooting-gun-violence-us&usg=AFQjCNFwZ2OCDWeqpazAsGwEovY9KnU_mA

wes · 17-06-2016 11:39AM

Bambi wrote: »

interesting perspective:

http://i0.wp.com/www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/13407208_1150129685057177_2688019418184278113_n.jpg

The venue had an armed security guard btw.

aloyisious · 17-06-2016 12:14PM

wes wrote: »

The venue had an armed security guard btw.

Looks at last line in link, think's of preent Canadian Ambassador Kevin Vickers in his previous role as Sergeant-at-Arms in Canadian Parliament.

stoplooklisten · 17-06-2016 12:19PM

Robert Abell, a co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, Florida, told ABC News today that a man entered the store five or six weeks ago and asked specific questions about high-end body armor. When employees said the store didn't carry the body armor he wanted, Abell said, the man made a phone call in a foreign language, hung up and then asked about ammunition in bulk.

https://gma.yahoo.com/orlando-shooter-turned-away-different-gun-store-being-141628142--abc-news-topstories.html

Sounds very much like he had an accomplice

wes · 17-06-2016 12:19PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Looks at last line in link, think's of preent Canadian Ambassador Kevin Vickers in his previous role as Sergeant-at-Arms in Canadian Parliament.

Again the venue in this attack had an armed security guard, and there were still 49 deaths.

Also, Canada is a whole other kettle of fish.

Apogee · 17-06-2016 01:18PM

<SNIP>

Huffington Post wrote:

Last weekend Senator Ted Cruz, along with fellow GOP presidential candidates Mike Huckabee and Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal, spoke at a conference in Des Moines headed up by a man who advocates the execution of gay people — per his interpretation of the bible — and who made his call for mass extermination once again, onstage at the event, the National Religious Liberties Conference. Pastor Kevin Swanson has said in the past that Christians should attend gay weddings and hold up signs telling the newly married gay and lesbian couples that they “should be put to death.” He was an advocate of Uganda’s infamous “Kill the Gays” bill, which he saw as a model.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTNymA9mRq4

stoplooklisten · 17-06-2016 01:59PM

Bambi wrote: »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

Next caller!

Yes, this is a disgrace. It has been widely condemned by everyone. These extremists should be called out for what they are.

Thank God it wasn't the catholics :rolleyes:

Here is what the normal people at this mosque, not radicalised,not preachers, normal people agree with

watch from 1.33, the imam asks them questions and you can see how the crowd respond with a show of hands
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29b_1465909753

Bannasidhe · 17-06-2016 02:08PM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yes, this is a disgrace. It has been widely condemned by everyone. These extremists should be called out for what they are.

Thank God it wasn't the catholics :rolleyes:

Here is what the normal people at this mosque, not radicalised,not preachers, normal people agree with

watch from 1.33, the imam asks them questions and you can see how the crowd respond with a show of hands
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=29b_1465909753

Riiight... so if this mosque is an example of what happens in all mosques by that 'logic' Anderson's churches is an example of all churches.

stoplooklisten · 17-06-2016 02:11PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Riiight... so if this mosque is an example of what happens in all mosques by that 'logic' Anderson's churches is an example of all churches.

No, that's not the logic at all

You showed a christian hate preacher, I'm showing that the average Muslim at this conference agrees with the christian hate preacher.

unseenfootage · 17-06-2016 02:20PM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Thank God it wasn't the catholics :rolleyes:

They taking a break after all the excesses of the past few centuries. :rolleyes:

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Comments