Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

Going Forward wrote: »

I've just read the Broadsheet article and I'm no wiser, but the dates of his appeal coincided with the time of the abduction, I thought that strange.

But also why would Mrs Copley go public unless she is being manipulated?

But there were some inconsistencies in her media interviews according to BS??

What's the concensus?

I thought the dates would make him very likely to commit the crime, as opposed to many in the media who think that there is no way he could/would on those dates especially.
If he thought he was about to be locked up for a long time, it is possible he thought he may commit another act before he was.
Mrs Copleys inconstistencies could be explained in a lot of different ways. One example could be that she was trying to protect someone.

Whether or not it's believed that he was responsible for the death of Philip Cairns, and if he acted alone or with a few others, there are lots of other things surrounding him and how he went about life in general, that I believe should be investigated a lot further.

I am not sure that the conspiracy aspects make a great deal of sense either though.

- The woman came forward when he was in a -hospice-, so dying, yes, but not dead. I don't think it's hugely unlikely that people who were victimised by him would keep an ear on where he was, due to the worry of his being let out again and to ensure that he's nowhere near them. Mrs. Copley told one of the (two, it seems at the moment) that he was in a hospice, which started one of the two separate lines of information coming out. That's not remarkable, at this stage, there was no way he was getting out again. And bear in mind, there are people out there who thought it was all over and done with - and then his conviction was overturned and he was suddenly out again. He kept trying to get released. No, the timing doesn't seem that weird to me.

- The other woman came forward independently and when Mrs. Copley's tip was given, she had already reported it. It is possible that these two women knew each other and talked it out beforehand, but it sounds so far like they didn't.

- It was thirty years ago. Anyone who did it, unless it was the suggestion back then that it was a gang of older schoolboys bullying him, -would- be getting on a bit. If we discount the schoolboys idea, which was never really believed that deeply, anyone who did it would be at best in their fifties now. And frankly, the very success they had in getting away with it suggests that the person was calculating, clever, had the freedom to get around, above suspicion and able to keep the secret to themselves. That does, to me, suggest someone older than early twenties. That it was someone in their forties - and thus someone in their late seventies now - isn't particularly surprising. That is pure supposition, mind, and certainly has no weighting on whether or not -Cooke- did it. Just that the potential perpetrator died not long ago and the case is thirty years ago doesn't actually surprise me.

- If Cooke -did- do it, and the very fact that he is being looked at as a very possible perpetrator, there are an awful lot of questions for An Garda Siochana about their treatment of the case - and their treatment of Cooke - thirty years ago. It's true that it would be unlikely to affect the careers of any current Gardai, but it is an indictment on the unit as a whole, and that they are taking it so seriously suggests that they really are suspicious. There would be -no- backlash on the Gardai at this point if a cold case remained cold and all involved took their wonderings, suspicions, and evidence to the grave. There is when it suddenly becomes current news again. However you look at it, a huge can of worms has been opened and it's been opened with the co-operation and even encouragement of the current Garda force.

- Finally, Cooke confirmed some aspects of the woman's story. He didn't incriminate himself, but he confirmed that at least some of it is true. That poor kid may have had the incredibly bad luck to be in the cars of two violent paedophiles on the day he vanished (or at least in the close vicinity of two very dangerous men independently of each other), but it seems Somewhat Unlikely. Not impossible, but unlikely.

I dunno. I'm rather with the Gardai way of looking at it at the moment. There is no proof, but there IS enough circumstantial evidence to be deeply suspicious of the man. It's a shame that he will never be tried for it but thirty years on, it was reasonably unlikely that the person who did it ever would be.

Kamili wrote: »

Thing is he only got a ten year sentence so he was due for release next year. So he would have gotten out if he hadn't died.

Still begs the question, if he wasn't dying/dead and instead released next year would the latest revelations have come out?

Would you wonder the same about Jimmy Saville?

Kamili wrote: »

Its just too close to Cooke's actual death. That's what gets me. The sudden urgency to speak to him on his deathbed makes no sense.

I think it might be strange if this came out after his death, but the fact it was before, and the Gardai allegedly tried to get him to confess to where Phillip was buried makes it more credible imo

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I think it might be strange if this came out after his death, but the fact it was before, and the Gardai allegedly tried to get him to confess to where Phillip was buried makes it more credible imo

Thats true too actually, and the below article sheds more light on the reasoning behind not asking him before now.

I think I am just massively confused by the whole thing. Something about the whole case isn't adding up.

Good they are planning to dig that container belonging to Cooke
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/how-five-years-of-fear-stalled-eamon-cooke-naming-in-philip-cairns-case-34802715.html

The woman, whose evidence has now resulted in the first major lead in the 30-year-old garda investigation, had previously contacted detectives five years ago.
However, she was not able to give gardaí crucial information because she was terrified of Cooke, who died earlier this month.

Meanwhile, gardaí expect to start digging soon in the search for the missing 13-year-old's body. They are taking seriously the suggestion that he may be buried in a container underground near a radio transmitter.

Going Forward wrote: »

On the timing, someone (you maybe?) suggested that a resolution to the case would very useful at this time to bolster the image of the guards.

With all that's come out it could well backfire regardless of the outcome.

People have correctly suggested IMO that GSOC should investigate the investigation etc. but I can't see that happening ever.

Wasn't me, always found the timing suspect so I think someone responded to that in response to my questions on the timing.

I have to agree on GSOC though, theres a lot of things that we handled badly in the case. Particularly if they knew in 2011 that Cooke was involved as the above article suggests.

intheclouds wrote: »

A container underground near a radio transmitter?

Do they know where it is?

I heard Crooksling mentioned. But the report says Tallaght/Rathfarnham area.

fryup wrote: »

and me too,

why not do it when he was in prison and no danger to anyone?? why didn't that woman reveal all then?

Him being in prison probably wouldn't have made any difference, when you have friends in low places who can do your dirty work for you to make people stay quiet.

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Him being in prison probably wouldn't have made any difference, when you have friends in low places who can do your dirty work for you to make people stay quiet.

In which case, he could technically have posed a threat even from his hospice bed.

All of this coming out now just doesn't make sense. Putting Cooke in the frame obviously didn't make sense - or didn't suit certain people - for almost 3 decades.

Now, all these years later, a woman makes a vague statement placing Philip in Inchicore and relating that he was struck. That's all.

We know that gardaí quizzed Cooke - on his deathbed, on God knows what kind of pain medication - and Cooke confirmed certain details (note: we have no idea what details he firmed up) but gave no info on Philip's whereabouts. That's all.

I agree that the gardaí have a lot of questions to answer ... but I don't think the knowledge we have access to leads to Cooke being the perpetrator here.

intheclouds wrote: »

What do you think was vague about it?

As I read it it was quite definitive who was where and who struck who?

I think that all depends on what article you read.
From the broadsheet timeline http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/14/philip-cairns-and-a-trail-of-disinformation/

June 10, 2016: RTÉ News and the Irish Independent report that a woman has come forward with information indicating Eamonn Cooke may have been implicated in Philip Cairns’ death. It is stated that the woman concerned was in a car with Cooke (it is not stated if Philip was also in the car).

She is also reported as saying that Cooke knew Philip and had promised to take him to the station (it is not specifically stated that Cooke was the person who actually took him there). At the station a row broke out when she was in another room and she believes that Cooke struck Philip with an implement.

She subsequently saw Philip bleeding and unconscious on the floor. She then fainted and when she woke up she was in a car driven by Cooke (it is unclear if this is the same car trip referred to earlier). It is not stated whether or not she subsequently saw Philip’s body or if he was also in the car when she woke up. Detectives are reported to regard her story as ‘credible’.

RTÉ reports the above events as having taken place ‘on the day’ of Philip’s disappearance. The Irish Independent, on the other hand, use the less specific phrase of ‘in and around the time’ he disappeared.

Kamili wrote: »

which we also have doubts on if the statement about the bag being seen in the laneway from the Sunday before the Tuesday it was "discovered" is to be believed and Gardai had to reiterate several times that they already searched the laneway. Doubt is cast on whether they did search it as two or three boys came forward saying it was there since the Sunday.

I think it's believed that the bag was put there after. The girls that found it said it definitely wasn't there when they were walking out, and it was when they came back. Also it was bone dry, and it had been raining for three days.

That aside, with a missing boy in the area, I'm sure if anyone had seen it before that, they would have mentioned it. The Gardaí had specifically mentioned the bag a few times.

McLoughlin wrote: »

Looks like Jimmy Saville was a friend of Cooke's
http://www.hotpress.com/Jimmy-Savile/news/Convicted-Paedophile-Eamon-Cooke-Knew-Jimmy-Saville/17487149.html

"When the station was in Sarsfield Road, I had a key to get in and open the hall door. There was another key hidden inside, which opened the steel door that got you into the little kitchen/dining-room where the phone was.

"There was another steel door that lead up the stairs to Cooke’s bedroom, which someone said was electrified. He definitely ran cables to the back door and told An Post, ‘Come in and you’ll be electrocuted!’ One or two mornings there’d be a note asking me to wake him up, usually because he was attending a court case.”
....


"I used the bathroom one day and noticed there was lice control stuff there for his head in it. A lot of the dirt was down to the fact that he was always digging


- See more at: http://www.hotpress.com/Jimmy-Savile/news/Convicted-Paedophile-Eamon-Cooke-Knew-Jimmy-Saville/17487149.html#sthash.Jzc1KMPv.dpuf