Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Samaris · 14-06-2016 08:56AM

Sand wrote: »

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, and its teachings are not reached by consensus. They are the word of God, revealed to man - thats the core definition of being Catholic. Now either you are on board with God's message, or you are not. People voting against Catholic teaching are not Catholics any more than they are professional football players because they wear a teams jersey.

It's a handy catch-22, that. The vast majority of Catholics (and x-other religion) do not believe every single word of the Bible (or their particular holy book) and can deal quite well with the resulting cognitive dissonance of it. And they are much more representative of their particular religion.

But it's very handy to be able to say that they are not a "true Christian", yet if they do obey every single word, they're a raving lunatic and probably a criminal.

As a side-note, there is a difference between "God's word" and the word of the teachings which are generally accepted to come from divinely inspired men (and sometimes women). The level to which the divine inspiration absolutely represents God's word is never quite agreed on. Call it a get-out clause if you want, but it makes a difference between a zealot and a decent person that just wants to get on with their life and obey the basic laws which tend to be along the lines of "be decent to each other".

conorhal · 14-06-2016 08:59AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post he believed Mateen was gay, and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Chris Callen, who performs at Pulse under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told The Canadian Press and CNN's Anderson Cooper that Mateen had been going to the bar one or twice a month "for at least three years."

Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

The leader of the Bataclan attack was also gay:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/salah-abdeslam-who-is-the-gay-isis-fighter-who-fled-the-paris-attacks-in-november-a6939476.html

He wanted to enter heaven free of his sins, the best way to absolve his 'crime' was evidently paying for them in infidel blood.
Mateen's internalised homophobia found a direct target but like Abselam, the view is that any infidel will do because ultimately, gay or straight, you are 'other' regardless. In that respect the attack has more in comon with the Charlie Hebdo or Bataclan then a simply homophobic attack because it's a direct attack on the values of the 'other'.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 08:59AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

An interesting development. Accepting it at face value for now what causes a gay person to be conflicted about their sexual identity to such an extent that they seek to kill on this scale?

A lot of gay people have issues with internalised homophobia. Even gay people who are out and open for many years have issues with it. It's commonly discussed amongst LGBT people.

There's lots of reasons for it, growing up in a homophobic family, school, culture, etc. Look at all the politicians on the right in the US who have been vociferously anti-gay who have later been found to be going to gay prostitutes, or hook up spots, or who have secret boyfriends.

It's going to continue to happen until homophobia is stamped out. Until a gay child can grow up without being taught to hate their very nature.

BattleCorp · 14-06-2016 09:05AM

gandalf wrote: »

Yep the guy had serious issues but it doesn't help that he can go into a shop and buy a gun whose genesis came from a design of a battlefield weapon over the counter with same ease that we would buy a Mars bar.

He may have killed people anyway but not to the scale that the tool he choose allowed him to.

The thing is though, unless he was dribbling and spouting nonsense, how would you know that he was going to do something like this when he was buying the gun?

If there were background checks and psychological tests, he probably would still have gotten this gun. If there was a waiting period for getting these guns, all that would have happened would be that the attack would have taken place a few weeks later.

It's impossible to be psychic and know if someone is going to go on a killing spree.

So your other option is to ban guns. That's not a runner in America. It's too ingrained in their culture.

Banning guns punishes law abiding gun owners unfairly, hunters, target shooters, pest control, self-defence etc..
Kind of like Trump banning Muslims as this would be unfair to law abiding Muslims.

14-06-2016 09:18AM

Gay Muslim terrorists.. I mean seriously, how do screen for that bullshlt?

Fleawuss · 14-06-2016 09:31AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

A lot of gay people have issues with internalised homophobia. Even gay people who are out and open for many years have issues with it. It's commonly discussed amongst LGBT people.

There's lots of reasons for it, growing up in a homophobic family, school, culture, etc. Look at all the politicians on the right in the US who have been vociferously anti-gay who have later been found to be going to gay prostitutes, or hook up spots, or who have secret boyfriends.

It's going to continue to happen until homophobia is stamped out. Until a gay child can grow up without being taught to hate their very nature.

A good list but not complete. Add religion. Its role needs to be named.

14-06-2016 09:41AM

So he was gay and not linked to any terrorist group in particular.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 09:44AM

Muslims in NYC hold Vigil for the victims of a homophobe.

https://www.facebook.com/HuffingtonPost/videos/10153978476711130/

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 09:45AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

A good list but not complete. Add religion. Its role needs to be named.

Absolutely. Religion has a huge part to play in encouraging bigotry, but also in fighting for LGBT rights.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 09:45AM

RoboKlopp wrote: »

So he was gay and not linked to any terrorist group in particular.

He may have been gay.
He may have been Bisexual.

What is certain is he was homophobic.

12Phase · 14-06-2016 09:46AM

Two Tone wrote: »

I know he's not thinking straight but this really angers me. Blaming the nightclub instead of the killer, it's shameful.

That's the thing though. They're just interviewing a traumatised parent who'll defend the indefensible and he's digging and digging.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 09:47AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Absolutely. Religion has a huge part to play in encouraging bigotry, but also in fighting for LGBT rights.

I might have missed the huge religious presence in the fight for LGBT rights....

Could you give me examples?

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 09:47AM

12Phase wrote: »

That's the thing though. They're just interviewing a traumatised parent who'll defend the indefensible and he's digging and digging.

the father released his own videos too

one one sat, one on monday..

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-06-2016 09:48AM

Sand wrote: »

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, and its teachings are not reached by consensus. They are the word of God, revealed to man - thats the core definition of being Catholic. Now either you are on board with God's message, or you are not. People voting against Catholic teaching are not Catholics any more than they are professional football players because they wear a teams jersey.

No, the catholic church teaches dogma based on texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago as absolute fact, the only way it works is because modern, enlightened people have chosen to ignore teachings that prescribe that anyone eating shellfish, wearing garments from 2 different fabrics or plant 2 kinds of crop in the same field be stoned to death.
So, not the word of God, more the incoherent ramblings of people who most likely were off their face on something.

But ok, if that's what floats your boat:
"Go forth, clean the house, be nice to people, buy a gift for your wife and be tolerant of people who do not agree with you."
God.

So there you have it, God's word!

edit:
Most of the trouble in the world comes from people blindly swallowing bullsh*t from other people who may have ulterior motives. it is not religion entirely that is to blame, it is stupid people who sheepishly follow others and do their bidding. Because belonging is nice and safe. Because it frees us from responsibility and having to make our own choices and decisions. It is a marvelous crutch for people who don't have the intelligence, imagination and strength to stand on their own two feet and say "My life is my own and whatever happens or whatever I do, is because of my own choices and decisions!"

ParkRunner · 14-06-2016 09:49AM

Does this mean Owen Jones was wrong!? It seems to be a far more complex situation than just a religious fanatic (terrorist) targeting the gay population because their sexual orientation is at odds with his religion.

The reasons for the attack cannot be easily categorised, as seemed to happen with strong emotion in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. It is a sad result of the development of social media and thirst for immediate headline news that some time cannot be taken to stand back and analyse all the facts, as there is often a bigger picture

Fleawuss · 14-06-2016 09:56AM

Two Tone wrote: »

I know he's not thinking straight but this really angers me. Blaming the nightclub instead of the killer, it's shameful.

The man is in deep shock and being exploited by media for their own purposes. A traumatised person might not be the best person to be interviewed about the situation least of all a parent of a killer.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 10:01AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I might have missed the huge religious presence in the fight for LGBT rights....

Could you give me examples?

I can't give any examples of a huge religious presence in the fight for LGBT rights. I attended a Unitarian (Christian) church near me for a while. They advocated for LGBT rights, also for reproductive rights, and supported anti-racist initiatives. These views were occasionally spoken about at the church, but when I was attending the average attendance was about ten people, who pretty much already agreed with LGBT, women's and minority rights initiatives, and campaigned and lobbied for such. So I don't think it had any big effect in general.

Earlier in this thread there were links to Muslim clerics advocating for LGBT rights, and performing same sex marriages. One church was phyiscally attacked by other muslims, and someone said that one of the other clerics had to keep the location of their mosque secret. So again, while they were advocating for equal rights, they were an extreme minority.

I don't think there is a huge presence of any religion in the fight for the rights of any minority. I think the complete opposite is the case. That religion is one of the most damaging things for LGBT and other minority rights.

But I think if bigotry is going to be stamped out, it will take the chuch's involvement. They hold huge influence. I think they will have to preach to their followers that LGBT rights, and minority rights are what is good and right for the world.

I don't see that happening. I can't see an end to bigotry. But if there is an end to bigotry the churches will play a huge part in it.

ampleforth · 14-06-2016 10:05AM

I am not surprised. I think it is kind of normal there, so why all that fuzz?

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-06-2016 10:20AM

ampleforth wrote: »

I am not surprised. I think it is kind of normal there, so why all that fuzz?

You called?

StewartGriffin · 14-06-2016 10:39AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

He may have been gay.
He may have been Bisexual.

What is certain is he was homophobic.

No. That is not certain.

He went there, to a packed place he frequented and knew he would get access to, to kill as many people as possible with the weapons and ammunition he had. As he did so he didn't shout anti homosexual words, but another slogan we are all familiar with.
If he was there simply because he hated gays then he would surely have used his last words to make his reasons known.
Where else would he go to inflict maximum casualties but somewhere he was known and was comfortable in?

I don't believe this was a homophobic attack.

Timberrrrrrrr · 14-06-2016 10:41AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

No. That is not certain.

He went there, to a packed place he frequented and knew he would get access to, to kill as many people as possible with the weapons and ammunition he had. As he did so he didn't shout anti homosexual words, but another slogan we are all familiar with.
If he was there simply because he hated gays then he would surely have used his last words to make his reasons known.
Where else would he go to inflict maximum casualties but somewhere he was known and was comfortable in?

I don't believe this was a homophobic attack.

Any proof of this? Not being a dick but honestly have not read this so genuinely interested if there are witness reports to this.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 10:43AM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No, the catholic church teaches dogma based on texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago as absolute fact, the only way it works is because modern, enlightened people have chosen to ignore teachings that prescribe that anyone eating shellfish, wearing garments from 2 different fabrics or plant 2 kinds of crop in the same field be stoned to death.
So, not the word of God, more the incoherent ramblings of people who most likely were off their face on something.

But ok, if that's what floats your boat:
"Go forth, clean the house, be nice to people, buy a gift for your wife and be tolerant of people who do not agree with you."
God.

So there you have it, God's word!

edit:
Most of the trouble in the world comes from people blindly swallowing bullsh*t from other people who may have ulterior motives. it is not religion entirely that is to blame, it is stupid people who sheepishly follow others and do their bidding. Because belonging is nice and safe. Because it frees us from responsibility and having to make our own choices and decisions. It is a marvelous crutch for people who don't have the intelligence, imagination and strength to stand on their own two feet and say "My life is my own and whatever happens or whatever I do, is because of my own choices and decisions!"

Actually, when given an opportunity, God gave us 10 rules.

You'd imagine that if there were any additional ones that he viewed as important that he'd have added them.

There's a valid debate to be had as to why 3 out of 10 are all about him, but in terms of the concept, any other rules are irrelevant to a relationship with God.

WoolyJumper · 14-06-2016 10:44AM

ParkRunner wrote: »

Does this mean Owen Jones was wrong!? It seems to be a far more complex situation than just a religious fanatic (terrorist) targeting the gay population because their sexual orientation is at odds with his religion.

The reasons for the attack cannot be easily categorised, as seemed to happen with strong emotion in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. It is a sad result of the development of social media and thirst for immediate headline news that some time cannot be taken to stand back and analyse all the facts, as there is often a bigger picture

Owen Jones said this was a homophobic attack. Seems like he was right to me. A gay person can be homophobic. I'd argue most of us are, most of us spend a period of time struggling with our sexuality. Given this guys culture, his father, his religion he was bound have internalised homophobia if he was gay/bi.

I'm not very comfortable typing that because feels almost like I'm making excuses for him. I'm certainly not. There is no justification for what he did

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 10:48AM

Yesterday he was responsible for the worst attack on the LGBTI community since the holocaust, but today we have empathise with him because he was struggling with his sexuality, what a strange world we live in

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 10:52AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yesterday he was responsible for the worst attack on the LGBTI community since the holocaust, but today we have empathise with him because he was struggling with his sexuality, what a strange world we live in

Who said we have to empathise with him? From the very start of this thread, everyone who posted that I recognise as a member of the LGBT community has said this was a homophobic attack, and that homophobia in all forms needs to be addressed.

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 10:52AM

Didn't he only start going to Pulse after his visits to Saudi Arabia?
It was only in the years after his visits to Saudi Arabia that he came to the attention of the FBI.
It may have taken years for him to get the courage or be radicalised enough for him to carry out the attack.

my friend · 14-06-2016 10:52AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Fleawuss wrote: »

An interesting development. Accepting it at face value for now what causes a gay person to be conflicted about their sexual identity to such an extent that they seek to kill on this scale?

A lot of gay people have issues with internalised homophobia. Even gay people who are out and open for many years have issues with it. It's commonly discussed amongst LGBT people.

There's lots of reasons for it, growing up in a homophobic family, school, culture, etc. Look at all the politicians on the right in the US who have been vociferously anti-gay who have later been found to be going to gay prostitutes, or hook up spots, or who have secret boyfriends.

It's going to continue to happen until homophobia is stamped out. Until a gay child can grow up without being taught to hate their very nature.

Are you having a laugh?

Shooter in Bataclan homosexual, shooter in Orlando homosexual and instead of trying to understand how the homosexual community alienated them you seek to blame society as a whole?

Get off the stage

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 10:57AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The Left-Fascist Summary of the last 6 months.

Paris Attacks: White people created slums and disenfranchised youths. Foreign policy is to blame. Colonial past is catching up.

Cologne: Nothing happened. Islamophobia is the real danger here.

Brussels: White people have to evaluate their foreign policy. Nobody was this upset about Istanbul. Colonial past is catching up.

Orlando: White people and their gun laws are to blame. Christians are homophobes.

To be fair nobody really said or is saying that.. Well in the case of Paris and Brussels I definitely never once heard anyone say those things you said and I know a lot of hardcore PC people.
I have heard some of those things being said about orlando and cologne though.

Also Manteen was very likely gay now. A former classmate who was openly gay said the killer asked him out when they were in college together.
He used gay dating websites. Drank at Pulse nightclub a lot.
The media asked his wife whether she thought Mateen was gay or not, she paused in silence for a few moments and replied, 'I don't know'.
Interesting twist on the story

WoolyJumper · 14-06-2016 10:57AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yesterday he was responsible for the worst attack on the LGBTI community since the holocaust, but today we have empathise with him because he was struggling with his sexuality, what a strange world we live in

I don't think anyone is sympathising with him. Whether he was gay or not he is still responsible for the biggest attack on the LGBT community since the holocaust. People are just trying to explain/make sense of the fact why a gay/bi person would commit this atrocity.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 11:01AM

tigger123 wrote: »

Quelle surprise.

It's so often the way; the most homophobic people are repressing their own feelings.

Oh come on, a gay person killing 50 gay people is extremely surprising. I know some closeted people can be very homophobic but never to such an extent like this

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Comments