Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 06:12AM

Mateen had visited Jihadi websites, ISIS beheadings, videos of a US imam who went to Yemen and who the US killed in a drone strike.
US authorities say he was at least partly radicalised via the internet.

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 06:24AM

Omar Mateen's father says the nightclub didn't have good enough security.

Well the father didn't have good enough parenting skills...to put even a small amount of blame on the nightclub is ridiculous. There is something very wrong with his father, wouldn't be surprised if he was a terrorist as well given his support for the Taliban.

stunmer · 14-06-2016 06:53AM

Before the marriage equality referendum some people were saying that we could not call Islamic or Muslim majority countries up on their homophobic culture and laws as we did not have gay marriage.

There is a massive difference between not being allowed to marry any being killed for being gay.

12Phase · 14-06-2016 07:18AM

Honestly, don't want to know more about this guy.

The US media gets obsessed with profiling murderers.

I'm seriously worried that this could cause copycat incidents.

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 07:44AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It never fails to amaze me that some of the most rabid homophobes are actually gay themselves.

Nothing is impossible when it comes to one of the basic building-blocks of humans. I think however he may have been scouting-out the club to see how he could get in to commit his planned murders and what was the best night. It may well turn out that he visited other locations as well. The security people will probably check and report visits to the FBI now.

His father seem's to be a very deluded person at a personal level when it comes to his alleged link to his home-country's political life and the Taliban. I don't believe him when he say's his son was not of a strong religious belief or that he failed to bring him up with one. His presence in the US surprised me, leaving me ask if he was a guest of the US Govt following the over-thrown of the Taliban Govt. The US covertly supported the Taliban during the Russian occupancy of Afgnahistan. I couldn't be surprised at any clash between him, his son and US culture.

Richard Hillman · 14-06-2016 08:01AM

The Left-Fascist Summary of the last 6 months.

Paris Attacks: White people created slums and disenfranchised youths. Foreign policy is to blame. Colonial past is catching up.

Cologne: Nothing happened. Islamophobia is the real danger here.

Brussels: White people have to evaluate their foreign policy. Nobody was this upset about Istanbul. Colonial past is catching up.

Orlando: White people and their gun laws are to blame. Christians are homophobes.

12Phase · 14-06-2016 08:03AM

Why the hell are they interviewing his father on sky news?

He's now blaming nightclub security!?

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 08:05AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Orlando: White people and their gun laws are to blame. Christians are homophobes.

America and its gun laws are to blame. Homophobic legislation from the American government is to blame. Religion preaching homophobia is to blame. Mental health issues are to blame. The man who did the shooting is to blame.

There's a lot to blame. There was no singular, simple cause of this.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:08AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You have no idea?

Prahaps he attended the sermon given by an Imam in Orlando who sentanced gay people to death.

I don't know because not enough evidence has emerged to form the basis of a hypothesis.

So far it's all speculation.

Therefore - I don't know.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:21AM

Sand wrote: »

You just dismissed it again. Someone goes to the bother of studying a question, carries out 38,000 interviews in multiple languages across the world, and you don't even bother discussing the study or challenging its conclusions bar some lazy 'Polls, Schmoles. I trust my gut.' comment Donald Trump would be proud of.

I'm not getting worked up (another dismissal). I'm pointing out poor contributions to a debate and an unwillingness to accept presented evidence.

Yes, glad you can acknowledge that without qualifiers.

I've not insulted you at all.

You didn't query the poll - that would have been totally fine in my book. I happily query polls, especially on the initial assumptions or the way questions lead to certain answers. You weren't able to do that. You just dismissed scientific polling entirely, presumably in favour of anecdotal evidence.

I queried the sample size.
How polling works was outlined to me.

Pointing out that polls in the past have been shown to be widely incorrect is not anecdotal - it is a matter of public record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/08/upshot/why-polls-have-been-wrong-recently.html?_r=0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-michigan-polls-were-wrong_us_56dfaa6ce4b0b25c91801d95
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-political-polls-are-so-often-wrong-1447285797
http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2015/09/28/why-public-opinion-polls-are-increasingly-inaccurate
And those are just the tip of the ' polls are often wrong' iceberg.

Others have raised valid concerns re: giving 'incorrect' answers in absolutist countries such as Saudi Arabia. I myself pointed out that according to the 2011 census (a 'form' of poll) over 80% of the Irish population stated it was Roman Catholic - do you believe that over 80% of the Irish population are practicing Catholics?

Do you by any chance work for a polling company?
You seem very invested in the scientific method you keep mentioning being foolproof when the evidence shows it clearly isn't.

Sand · 14-06-2016 08:26AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Others have raised valid concerns re: giving 'incorrect' answers in absolutist countries such as Saudi Arabia.

Invalid concerns given the researchers did not interview in 'absolutist' countries. They did think of that concern.

Do you by any chance work for a polling company?
You seem very invested in the scientific method you keep mentioning being foolproof when the evidence shows it clearly isn't.

Where did I ever say foolproof? You're quoting a post where I said I am happy to challenge polls. You are not challenging the poll, you are dismissing the whole concept of scientific polling.

Michah · 14-06-2016 08:26AM

A census and a poll are two vastly different things. Pew Research are well respected in the field and are bipartisan. Using a sample of 1,000, the chances are 95% of coming within +/- 3% of a survey conducted among all members of the population.

Just because you dislike the results of a poll, does not mean that the poll is somehow flawed.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:29AM

my friend wrote: »

Eh, sorry to break it to you but it looks increasingly like a homosexual has committed these atrocities

Mateen was quite the regular at Pulse and frequented Gay hookup apps, more to follow.....

Do you think homosexuals can't be homophobic?

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 08:29AM

a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post he believed Mateen was gay, and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Chris Callen, who performs at Pulse under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told The Canadian Press and CNN's Anderson Cooper that Mateen had been going to the bar one or twice a month "for at least three years."

Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

Sand · 14-06-2016 08:31AM

20Cent wrote: »

So the 62 odd percent of people who voted yes in the same sex referendum in Ireland aren't actually Catholics.
Most people in Muslim countries don't have any choice in what religion they are. As you say yourself it would be dangerous for participants to answer honestly in these interviews.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, and its teachings are not reached by consensus. They are the word of God, revealed to man - thats the core definition of being Catholic. Now either you are on board with God's message, or you are not. People voting against Catholic teaching are not Catholics any more than they are professional football players because they wear a teams jersey.

Two Tone · 14-06-2016 08:31AM

12Phase wrote: »

Why the hell are they interviewing his father on sky news?

He's now blaming nightclub security!?

I know he's not thinking straight but this really angers me. Blaming the nightclub instead of the killer, it's shameful.

suicide_circus · 14-06-2016 08:35AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

America and its gun laws are to blame. Homophobic legislation from the American government is to blame. Religion preaching homophobia is to blame. Mental health issues are to blame. The man who did the shooting is to blame.

There's a lot to blame. There was no singular, simple cause of this.

And what about the gun and explosives laws in France and Belgium ? Are they to blame for the mass murders there?

Fleawuss · 14-06-2016 08:35AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post he believed Mateen was gay, and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Chris Callen, who performs at Pulse under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told The Canadian Press and CNN's Anderson Cooper that Mateen had been going to the bar one or twice a month "for at least three years."

Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

An interesting development. Accepting it at face value for now what causes a gay person to be conflicted about their sexual identity to such an extent that they seek to kill on this scale?

BattleCorp · 14-06-2016 08:39AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

An interesting development. Accepting it at face value for now what causes a gay person to be conflicted about their sexual identity to such an extent that they seek to kill on this scale?

The guy was fcukin nuts. It's probably as simple as that.

There are plenty of other conflicted gay people and they don't go shooting places to bits.

There are plenty of other gun owners and they don't go shooting places to bits.

Some people are just not right in the head and I don't think we will ever have all the answers as to why they are not right in the head.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:39AM

Sand wrote: »

Invalid concerns given the researchers did not interview in 'absolutist' countries. They did think of that concern.

Where did I ever say foolproof? You're quoting a post where I said I am happy to challenge polls. You are not challenging the poll, you are dismissing the whole concept of scientific polling.

I am saying that due to the number of times polls are demonstrably wrong I, personally, view their results with a critical eye.

Unless you can show me that polls are never wrong I will continue to view them critically no matter how many times someone who seems very invested in polling and extolling their virtues on the internet criticisms me for it.

Or would you prefer I take all of them on blind faith because they use a scientific method?

Actually - don't bother answering.
We shall have to agree to disagree.

Sand · 14-06-2016 08:40AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am saying that due to the number of times polls are demonstrably wrong I, personally, view their results with a critical eye.

Unless you can show me that polls are never wrong I will continue to view them critically no matter how many times someone who seems very invested in polling and extolling their virtues on the internet criticisms me for it.

Or would you prefer I take all of them on blind faith because they use a scientific method?

Actually - don't bother answering.
We shall have to agree to disagree.

No, you're right. Scientists sometimes make incorrect conclusions, therefore all science should be ignored. Very logical.

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 08:41AM

Reading what is in the Canadian Press, as reprinted in the Irish Independent, I'd have to change my opinion as to the killer's sexuality. He may well have been either Bi or Same-Sex orientated and his presence not merely scouting with murder in mind. His two ex-wives may be able to provide clues or answers to that. Three years attending the club is a long-term relationship.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-attack-and-used-gay-dating-apps-34799161.html

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:42AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

The guy was fcukin nuts. It's probably as simple as that.

There are plenty of other conflicted gay people and they don't go shooting places to bits.

There are plenty of other gun owners and they don't go shooting places to bits.

Some people are just not right in the head and I don't think we will ever have all the answers as to why they are not right in the head.

Yep the guy had serious issues but it doesn't help that he can go into a shop and buy a gun whose genesis came from a design of a battlefield weapon over the counter with same ease that we would buy a Mars bar.

He may have killed people anyway but not to the scale that the tool he choose allowed him to.

Christy42 · 14-06-2016 08:44AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

And what about the gun and explosives laws in France and Belgium ? Are they to blame for the mass murders there?

Number of mass shootings in Europe vs USA this year? Or mass murders? Or any year you want to pick. Or should we ditch vaccines because one person gets sick?
Gun laws are not foolproof. They won't end all gun violence. No one claims otherwise. What is claimed is that you will have less of them.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 08:44AM

aloyisious wrote: »

Reading what is in the Canadian Press, as reprinted in the Irish Independent, I'd have to change my opinion as to the killer's sexuality. He may well have been either Bi or Same-Sex orientated and his presence not merely scouting with murder in mind. His two ex-wives may be able to provide clues or answers to that.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-attack-and-used-gay-dating-apps-34799161.html

his ex-wife was asked not to tell the media

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3639961/Orlando-terrorist-went-gay-club-Pulse-dozen-times-got-drunk-belligerent-talked-wife-kid-massacring-49-people-there.html

tigger123 · 14-06-2016 08:46AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

a former classmate of Mateen's told The Palm Beach Post he believed Mateen was gay, and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.

Chris Callen, who performs at Pulse under the name Kristina McLaughlin, told The Canadian Press and CNN's Anderson Cooper that Mateen had been going to the bar one or twice a month "for at least three years."

Mateen on the gay dating apps Grindr, Adam4Adam, and Jack'd over the last several years. At least two of the man's friends had been contacted by Mateen on the apps.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-orlando-nightclub-shooter-visited-222620444.html

Quelle surprise.

It's so often the way; the most homophobic people are repressing their own feelings.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:47AM

Michah wrote: »

A census and a poll are two vastly different things. Pew Research are well respected in the field and are bipartisan. Using a sample of 1,000, the chances are 95% of coming within +/- 3% of a survey conducted among all members of the population.

Just because you dislike the results of a poll, does not mean that the poll is somehow flawed.

Sweetest divine :rolleyes:

If polling is so effective why the hell are they so often wrong?
And they are often wrong.
And until such time as they are always right (within a 3% margin) I will continue to take them with a pinch of salt regardless of the results.

I know a poll and a fecking census are different - my point being that even on the census in a mostly secular country where there are no repercussions for answering anyway you want people are not quite honest about their religious beliefs but we should accept they are in a poll conducted countries where no following the State religion can have serious consequences.

I don't accept polls are accurate enough and correct often enough to allow them to be uncritically accepted regardless of the results.

Is that clear? Can we move on now?

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:49AM

Sand wrote: »

No, you're right. Scientists sometimes make incorrect conclusions, therefore all science should be ignored. Very logical.

Oh step away from the drama.

Little CuChulainn · 14-06-2016 08:52AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

That's a silly question. Did you bother going through the issues? How would I answer the one about Uganda?

Nevertheless, here is a survey.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

A silly question? Is that because you cannot answer it? A person stated America was one of the most tolerant places for homosexuals to live in. You said it wasn't and gave a number of issues homosexuals face. But if homosexuals face these same issues in most other countries then the statement the original poster made is still correct.

wakka12 wrote: »

Its a hate crime regardless of what he was, he targeted a group specifically. So its a hate crime. Also he may have visited the site on several occasions so as to become more acquainted with the layout in anticipation of the attack.

So now that it's looking like he was himself a homosexual, is the big push to have this considered a crime against being gay going to backfire? Is the focus now going to look at how the gay community treated him as a reluctant or closet homosexual and treat this as an issue within the community?

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 08:52AM

Sand wrote: »

The Catholic Church is not a democracy, and its teachings are not reached by consensus. They are the word of God, revealed to man - thats the core definition of being Catholic. Now either you are on board with God's message, or you are not. People voting against Catholic teaching are not Catholics any more than they are professional football players because they wear a teams jersey.

How is voting for gay marriage against Catholic teaching. I thought a lot of the new testament was about how the state and church are separate. Render unto caeser, and the crown of thorns representing how he was trying to become a king and ruler of people when what he was preaching was religion and nothing to do with ruling people.

As for whether you have followed God's teachings, how can a man judge that, surely that is God and God alone's decision.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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