Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Michah · 14-06-2016 12:29AM

Channel 2’s sister station in Orlando, WFTV, is reporting that they expect an arrest in connection to the Orlando nightclub shooting that left 50 dead, including the shooter.

Looks like there was a second shooter.

Sand · 14-06-2016 12:30AM

20Cent wrote: »

Plenty of Catholics think things that go against catholic teaching. Are Muslims not the same? Would you risk your life for some researchers?

Then they are not Catholics, or Muslims. In the same way someone who does not believe in socialism is not a socialist.

And as pointed out, you have to demonstrate the 38,000 people in anonymous interviews felt their lives were directly under threat. The researchers had no power to compel people to be interviewed - if people were as terrified as you imagine, they would not have allowed themselves to be interviewed.

The researchers completely excluded countries where they felt security or political concerns would prevent proper polling so I think they were ahead of you on that point.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 12:36AM

Sand wrote: »

Then they are not Catholics, or Muslims. In the same way someone who does not believe in socialism is not a socialist.

And as pointed out, you have to demonstrate the 38,000 people in anonymous interviews felt their lives were directly under threat. The researchers had no power to compel people to be interviewed - if people were as terrified as you imagine, they would not have allowed themselves to be interviewed.

The researchers completely excluded countries where they felt security or political concerns would prevent proper polling so I think they were ahead of you on that point.

So the 62 odd percent of people who voted yes in the same sex referendum in Ireland aren't actually Catholics.
Most people in Muslim countries don't have any choice in what religion they are. As you say yourself it would be dangerous for participants to answer honestly in these interviews.

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 12:37AM

So the father says he was not very religious.
A person who has attended the mosque for many years says he knew Omar since 1998, he says he became very religious as a teenager, around 14 years of age.
He says he is concerned about more people at the mosque, as Omar is the 2nd terrorist who attended the same mosque

Little CuChulainn · 14-06-2016 12:44AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Not so sure about that.

A lot of republicans are homophobic.
Evangelicals are so homophobic they even export it to other countries, like Uganda.
Transgender toilet and marriage equality issues are deeply divisive.
Blood donations from homosexual men in many cities including Orlandois still banned.
LGBT people are still harassed on the streets.

And which countries would be better in those issues?

jackofalltrades · 14-06-2016 12:46AM

20Cent wrote: »

Leaving Islam or saying anything against it is a prison sentence if your lucky probably death. You don't think that would be a factor in answering those questions?

From the survey itself.

Conducting opinion polls in diverse societies necessitates adapting the survey to local sensitivities.
In some countries, pretest results indicated the need to suppress certain questions to avoid offending respondents and/or risking the security of the interviewers.

The security of respondents was taken into account.
You seem to be claiming that the researchers didn't properly account for this and as such the results are flawed.
Again you actually need to prove this, just claiming it is not enough.
It a pretty big claim against the integrity of the survey.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 12:52AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

38,000 people spread across 39 countries.

Average of 974 people per country.

Now I'm no statistician but 974 people per country out of countries where the population is millions seems like a fairly small sample to be basing some major claims on.

I think its quite representative really. If you asked 250 people from Dublin, 250 from leinster, 250 from munster and 250 from connacht, all different ages, socio economic background, gender and races , education levels then you'd get a very accurate impression of what Irish people as a whole think about a certain topic i think actually

unseenfootage · 14-06-2016 12:53AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

And which countries would be better in those issues?

That's a silly question. Did you bother going through the issues? How would I answer the one about Uganda?

Nevertheless, here is a survey.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

Michah · 14-06-2016 12:54AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Again you actually need to prove this, just claiming it is not enough.
It a pretty big claim against the integrity of the survey.

And against Pew. They're one of the least biased, most reliable polling organisations.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 12:55AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

From the survey itself.

The security of respondents was taken into account.
You seem to be claiming that the researchers didn't properly account for this and as such the results are flawed.
Again you actually need to prove this, just claiming it is not enough.
It a pretty big claim against the integrity of the survey.

It's proven in the results. The countries where Islam is the state religion where one can be jailed or killed for criticism of it have far higher percentages claiming to want Sharia law in the 80's or 90's. The more secular countries like Turkey it is 12%.
If being Muslim is a binary all in or nothing deal then all the countries should be giving similar answers. Jose in the strictest regimes aren't free to give honest answers will give the safest ones.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 12:57AM

wakka12 wrote: »

I think its quite representative really. If you asked 250 people from Dublin, 250 from leinster, 250 from munster and 250 from connacht, all different ages, socio economic background, gender and races , education levels then you'd get a very accurate impression of what Irish people as a whole think about a certain topic i think actually

Unless they knew they could be killed for giving the "wrong" answers. That would skew it a bit.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 12:57AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Not so sure about that.

A lot of republicans are homophobic.
Evangelicals are so homophobic they even export it to other countries, like Uganda.
Transgender toilet and marriage equality issues are deeply divisive.
Blood donations from homosexual men in many cities including Orlandois still banned.
LGBT people are still harassed on the streets.

God we just go around and around in circles with this argument. Millions of americans live openly homosexual lives with relatively little discrimination. Some people suffer obviously but to say that america is a homophobic country is infuriating for me considering the state of the rest of the world when it comes to lgbt rights. It is lightyears ahead of ALL of africa,India, Middle east, central and east asia so really calling usa homophobic or any western country for that matter is just ****ing annoying. There are so many bigger problems in the world

unseenfootage · 14-06-2016 01:05AM

wakka12 wrote: »

God we just go around and around in circles with this argument. Millions of americans live openly homosexual lives with relatively little discrimination. Some people suffer obviously but to say that america is a homophobic country is infuriating for me considering the state of the rest of the world when it comes to lgbt rights. It is lightyears ahead of ALL of africa,India, Middle east, central and east asia so really calling usa homophobic or any western country for that matter is just ****ing annoying. There are so many bigger problems in the world

I don't recall anyone saying America is a homophobic country?
You're getting annoyed for nothing.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 01:05AM

20Cent wrote: »

Unless they knew they could be killed for giving the "wrong" answers. That would skew it a bit.

God some people would throw themselves under a bus to protect this religion.
I think you'll find that surveys of muslims, here in the west such as britain, with no fear of prosecution for their answers fall in line with levels of bigotry seen in the world wide pew poll.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey
How many polls of tens of thousands of muslims showing proof of the bigotry within their community will it take to convince you that the majority of muslims are bigoted and prejudiced?

jackofalltrades · 14-06-2016 01:06AM

20Cent wrote: »

It's proven in the results. The countries where Islam is the state religion where one can be jailed or killed for criticism of it have far higher percentages claiming to want Sharia law in the 80's or 90's. The more secular countries like Turkey it is 12%.
If being Muslim is a binary all in or nothing deal then all the countries should be giving similar answers. Jose in the strictest regimes aren't free to give honest answers will give the safest ones.

So you still can't prove your claims, though so.
And no "it's proven by the results" isn't proof.
Feel free to contact Pew Research Centre with your findings though.
I'm sure they'd love to hear about the glaring flaw that you found in their methodology.

BorneTobyWilde · 14-06-2016 01:06AM

Anderson Cooper reading out names of those who lost their lives, on CNN now.
He's breaking up. Can't hold it together, sad to listen to.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 01:12AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So you still can't prove your claims, though so.
And no "it's proven by the results" isn't proof.
Feel free to contact Pew Research Centre with your findings though.
I'm sure they'd love to hear about the glaring flaw that you found in their methodology.

Well to believe those results one has to believe that people in a country where you can be jailed of killed for criticising Islam gave totally honest answers. I find that hard to believe, who would risk that.

Jimmy Garlic · 14-06-2016 01:14AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app....
......

Both Callen and Smith, who are married, tell the Canadian Press they stopped speaking to Mateen after he threatened them with a knife, apparently after someone made a joke about religion.

“He ended up pulling a knife,” Callen said. “He said if he ever messed with him again, you know how it’ll turn out.”

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

It never fails to amaze me that some of the most rabid homophobes are actually gay themselves.

Its dead Jim · 14-06-2016 01:15AM

wakka12 wrote: »

I think its quite representative really. If you asked 250 people from Dublin, 250 from leinster, 250 from munster and 250 from connacht, all different ages, socio economic background, gender and races , education levels then you'd get a very accurate impression of what Irish people as a whole think about a certain topic i think actually

This is true. If you get a representative sample of a population it will reflect the population. Looking at the list of countries that took part in the survey you might notice something.

Where are the countries that people would view as progressive and liberal? Clearly you are able to spot a sample size which is representative of a population. Can you really say that the sample is representative of a world population? Would a survey done in Alabama, Indiana and Mississippi be representative of people in Ireland or even the entire US?

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 01:18AM

http://news.sky.com/story/1711521/policeman-and-wife-killed-in-hostage-drama

Didnt think it was worthy of an entire thread but probably of interest to those reading this one.
A french policeman, his wife and his child were taken hostage by an ISIS terrorist in Paris tonight. Policeman and wife were killed. 3 year old child injured but safe.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 01:21AM

wakka12 wrote: »

God we just go around and around in circles with this argument. Millions of americans live openly homosexual lives with relatively little discrimination. Some people suffer obviously but to say that america is a homophobic country is infuriating for me considering the state of the rest of the world when it comes to lgbt rights. It is lightyears ahead of ALL of africa,India, Middle east, central and east asia so really calling usa homophobic or any western country for that matter is just ****ing annoying. There are so many bigger problems in the world

Americans have repeatedly tried to bring in equal rights law for LGBT people (amongst others) and have been opposed, and politicians have voted against it. But because it's not awful, people have to put up with discrimination.

Polling amongst LGBT people in Ireland have repeatedly said a huge amount of them have been subject to LGBT based abuse. But people frequently dismiss it as people being "dramatic."

LGBT people are treated badly in a huge amount of places. They are treated a lot worse in some places. But people defend their hate on the basis that they only make their life a little miserable, not 100% miserable.

That's what people have a problem with. You have the people in America who have voted against equal rights laws, condemning an attack on gay people. And completely ignoring their own treatment of LGBT people. Why? Because it suits them to attack muslims.

unseenfootage · 14-06-2016 01:23AM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It never fails to amaze me that some of the most rabid homophobes are actually gay themselves.

Reminds me of Eugenne Terrblanche, the leader of the notorious right wing racist Afrikaner Resistance Brigade in South Africa, who had homosexual relations with a black labourer.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 01:28AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Americans have repeatedly tried to bring in equal rights law for LGBT people (amongst others) and have been opposed, and politicians have voted against it. But because it's not awful, people have to put up with discrimination.

Polling amongst LGBT people in Ireland have repeatedly said a huge amount of them have been subject to LGBT based abuse. But people frequently dismiss it as people being "dramatic."

LGBT people are treated badly in a huge amount of places. They are treated a lot worse in some places. But people defend their hate on the basis that they only make their life a little miserable, not 100% miserable.

That's what people have a problem with. You have the people in America who have voted against equal rights laws, condemning an attack on gay people. And completely ignoring their own treatment of LGBT people. Why? Because it suits them to attack muslims.

Fair enough. But gay people have hard lives almost everywhere. I have been mistreated in Ireland for being gay, been verbally harassed, been abused online, been punched and pushed in nightclubs, do I think any of those things are okay? No, I wish it would change. But would I say Ireland is a homophobic country overall? Most certainly not, yet I often hear hardcore PC people say Ireland(and all western countries) is/are a homohpbic/racist/sexist place(s) which is just 100% BS.

So why don't people spend more time trying to make changes in countries where life is constant hardship for gay people ? Yes we can focus on making life for gay people better in the west and the world over at the same time but many people spend a disproportionate amount of time complaining about americans being homophobic and not criticising other countries where the statement is so much more true.

unseenfootage · 14-06-2016 01:30AM

wakka12 wrote: »

Fair enough. But gay people have hard lives almost everywhere. I have been mistreated in Ireland for being gay, been verbally harassed, been abused online, been punched and pushed in nightclubs, do I think any of those things are okay? No, I wish it would change. But would I say Ireland is a homophobic country overall? Most certainly not, yet I often hear hardcore PC people say Ireland(and all western countries) is/are a homohpbic/racist/sexist place(s) which is just 100% BS.

So why don't people spend more time trying to make changes in countries where life is constant hardship for gay people ? Yes we can focus on making life for gay people better in the west and the world over at the same time but many people spend a disproportionate amount of time complaining about americans being homophobic and not criticising other countries where the statement is so much more true.

This thread is about America tho....
Will you stop ranting now.

ceadaoin. · 14-06-2016 01:40AM

The arrest of an accomplice is expected shortly apparently

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/wftv-arrest-expected-in-orlando-nightclub-mass-shooting/340918422

my friend · 14-06-2016 02:07AM

So it's increasingly looking like not so much a hate crime as a self hate crime, increasing evidence Mateen was hooking up with guys on a gay website and was a regular attendee at the club

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 02:10AM

my friend wrote: »

So it's increasingly looking like not so much a hate crime as a self hate crime, increasing evidence Mateen was hooking up with guys on a gay website and was a regular attendee at the club

Its a hate crime regardless of what he was, he targeted a group specifically. So its a hate crime. Also he may have visited the site on several occasions so as to become more acquainted with the layout in anticipation of the attack.

my friend · 14-06-2016 02:19AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

AbusesToilets wrote: »

As opposed to blaming Christians, or white people, or guns? A radicalised muslim attacked a gay club. He is the only person who should be blamed.

A homophobe murdered people in a gay club.

A homophobe.

Can we all agree on that?

Eh, sorry to break it to you but it looks increasingly like a homosexual has committed these atrocities

Mateen was quite the regular at Pulse and frequented Gay hookup apps, more to follow.....

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 02:26AM

my friend wrote: »

Eh, sorry to break it to you but it looks increasingly like a homosexual has committed these atrocities

Mateen was quite the regular at Pulse and frequented Gay hookup apps, more to follow.....

How does it make him not a homophobe even if he's gay? If you hate gay people I think that makes you homophobic regardless of who you are.

stefanovich · 14-06-2016 05:45AM

Joeytheparrot wrote:

What? Where have I defended cold blooded murder? Where have I defended IS? Where have I defended Islamic extremism?

What I am saying is that so called moderate muslims are very much anti gay. If you believe in sharia you believe in the death penalty for homosexuality.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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