Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Kiwi in IE · 13-06-2016 11:12PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

It's hard to delve into past lives and rearrange the evolution of human societies and cultures but we're workin on it!

Could you expand on what you mean there? How does that relate to my comment that people should not be expected to be grateful when others are 'tolerant' of them not being heterosexual?

Sand · 13-06-2016 11:13PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Is the fact that Islam may or may not be a regressive belief system actually the most important issue we are facing, isn't the issue more related to the fact that even if Christianity is "as bad" ( and I don't think it is there is some pretty major differences), the problem is related to some strands of Muslim communities in the West and in countries with majority Islamic populations that they are moving from a situation which was at least slightly secular and tolerant towards a place where 2nd generation immigrants are more radical than their parents and in some countries a scene like this can't occur 50 years later.

I don't think that every Muslim is a terrorist or is inherently backwards, I know they aren't (I do think there is a culture clash but if somebody of their own volition wants to be modest and follow strictly their beliefs thats fine by me).
Its the fact that on this thread we have posters that have no problem blaming nearly everything on the Catholic Church and have done so for the last decade that I have used Boards, are turning around and trying to paint a situation where a person with extremely obvious motivations and background (hell he stated them) is a problem with Christianity and mainstream USA culture.

I referenced the Soho nail bombing earlier, would those posters be pointing at other influences when it was a white right wing male committing the atrocity, I doubt it.

The response needs to address the problem on several levels. The most pressing need is to identify the tiny, tiny, tiny minority who are motivated to act on their beliefs violently.

However, the ideological bedrock that motivates and justifies them to violence also needs to be addressed. These people believe they are on a mission from God, and that Gods holy book supersedes all human authority or concerns. Were white supremacists to attack a black church, I doubt you would have people ignoring white supremacy as a motivating factor, or worse taking the view that 'moderate' white supremacists needed to take back their beliefs from the violent minority giving it a bad name. Islam, like Christianity, is just a belief system, and an extremely regressive one. A secular, liberal state should not be tolerating the teaching of intolerance or presume that a 7th century ideology has parity of esteem with its own positions.

Trying to get the lunatics to run the asylum will only patronise and irritate the the people who identify as Muslim but don't actually believe (see the success of 'consent training' for men on university campuses) driving them into the arms of the fanatics, and will empower the 'moderates' who are actually the fanatics. The British tried it for decades and ended up with Londonistan. The British tolerated fanatics teaching the 2nd and 3rd generations who surprise, surprise ended up far more radicalised than their parents and showed no gratitude to the British state for its hands off attitude.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:14PM

Sand wrote: »

I'm saying Islam is a regressive belief system, and people who take on that belief system are going to have regressive views. That's logical on its own merits, and the poll bears it out. I don't know why you find it hard to acknowledge that Muslims have 7th century views when they are based on a 7th century text which is fanatically maintained against any external influence.

What I have an issue with is how these debates go in circles. A presents a position. B challenges A to present some evidence to support that position. A provides the required evidence.

B retorts ' Yeah, well, you know, that's just like... your opinion man'. Rinse, repeat.

Its very Trumpesque to completely dismiss a properly researched and resourced report as if statistical analysis is itself biased or invalid. I'm guessing you probably didn't bother to learn the science behind climate change. Do you not accept that either?

Where did I dismiss it exactly?

Quote the post where I said this is rubbish.

I said I don't trust polls in general as I have seen to many that were completely incorrect - I even gave the Kinnock/Thatcher polls as an example.
I even said I don't trust polls that say what I would lile them to say.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you are getting so worked up about.

Sure - Islam is a 7th century religion.
Christianity is a 1st century religion.

Happy?

Or is that Trumpesque too. No - I think it is you who are being Trumpesque as it is you who is insulting me when I did not insult you.

I queried a poll. Bad me.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:14PM

acier wrote: »

Correct, now what made him homophobic?

I don't know.

Sand · 13-06-2016 11:26PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Where did I dismiss it exactly?

Quote the post where I said this is rubbish.

I said I don't trust polls in general as I have seen to many that were completely incorrect - I even gave the Kinnock/Thatcher polls as an example.
I even said I don't trust polls that say what I would lile them to say.

You just dismissed it again. Someone goes to the bother of studying a question, carries out 38,000 interviews in multiple languages across the world, and you don't even bother discussing the study or challenging its conclusions bar some lazy 'Polls, Schmoles. I trust my gut.' comment Donald Trump would be proud of.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you are getting so worked up about.

I'm not getting worked up (another dismissal). I'm pointing out poor contributions to a debate and an unwillingness to accept presented evidence.

Sure - Islam is a 7th century religion.
Christianity is a 1st century religion.

Happy?

Yes, glad you can acknowledge that without qualifiers.

Or is that Trumpesque too. No - I think it is you who are being Trumpesque as it is you who is insulting me when I did not insult you.

I've not insulted you at all.

I queried a poll. Bad me.

You didn't query the poll - that would have been totally fine in my book. I happily query polls, especially on the initial assumptions or the way questions lead to certain answers. You weren't able to do that. You just dismissed scientific polling entirely, presumably in favour of anecdotal evidence.

Jimmy Garlic · 13-06-2016 11:26PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't know.

You have no idea?

Prahaps he attended the sermon given by an Imam in Orlando who sentanced gay people to death.

20Cent · 13-06-2016 11:30PM

Anyone see the flaw in interviewing these people face to face about their attitudes to Islam in Islamic countries?
If I was in Saudi and asked those questions would probably say I wanted sharia law and to beat my wife as well.

Superhorse · 13-06-2016 11:35PM

Feds saying terrorist scouted Disneyland and other locations according to CNN. Jesus hopefully the security was to intense and that's why he didn't carry it out there. If it wasn't I'm sure it's been stepped up by now.

Jimmy Garlic · 13-06-2016 11:36PM

20Cent wrote: »

Anyone see the flaw in interviewing these people face to face about their attitudes to Islam in Islamic countries?
If I was in Saudi and asked those questions would probably say I wanted sharia law and to beat my wife as well.

I assume that poll participants would be anonymous in so far as their answers couldn't be linked to them by third parties.

Moo Moo Land · 13-06-2016 11:37PM

Superhorse wrote: »

Feds saying terrorist scouted Disneyland and other locations according to CNN.

I knew Daffy Duck was gay!

unseenfootage · 13-06-2016 11:39PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You have no idea?

Prahaps he attended the sermon given by an Imam in Orlando who sentanced gay people to death.

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would have realized that the imam in that video is a shia who gave the sermon in Orlando.

The killer was a sunni and attended a sunni mosque in Fort Pierce 2 hours drive from Orlando.

Sand · 13-06-2016 11:40PM

20Cent wrote: »

Anyone see the flaw in interviewing these people face to face about their attitudes to Islam in Islamic countries?
If I was in Saudi and asked those questions would probably say I wanted sharia law and to beat my wife as well.

Interestingly enough, the research is not based on interviews taken in Saudia Arabia because of security/political concerns. They layout the methodology in the report itself.

Jimmy Garlic · 13-06-2016 11:42PM

Superhorse wrote: »

Feds saying terrorist scouted Disneyland and other locations according to CNN. Jesus hopefully the security was to intense and that's why he didn't carry it out there. If it wasn't I'm sure it's been stepped up by now.

Charming.. He must have been considering murdering a few dozen children. Maybe Micky Mouse and Donald Duck would have been swiftly executed too had he decided to go down that route. Disney security must have put him off as they use walk through metal detectors etc.

20Cent · 13-06-2016 11:47PM

Sand wrote: »

Interestingly enough, the research is not based on interviews taken in Saudia Arabia because of security/political concerns. The layout the methodology in the report itself.

Because participants would be afraid to answer truthfully and would give the newer they think their government would want them to?
Other countries would be the same.

20Cent · 13-06-2016 11:48PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I assume that poll participants would be anonymous in so far as their answers couldn't be linked to them by third parties.

Would you trust your life with some researchers you never met before?

13-06-2016 11:49PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

Any news on the guy planning the other attack? With the car full of weapons and explosives.

He might have been the local NRA rep wanting to protect everybody.

Sand · 13-06-2016 11:53PM

20Cent wrote: »

Because participants would be afraid to answer truthfully and would give the newer they think their government would want them to?
Other countries would be the same.

As pointed out above, the researchers likely did think of that. Peer pressure is not an unknown contaminant in polling. Anonymous interviews, held in private are an easy control.

I mean, if someone polled Socialist voters and found they were in favour of socialist policies - would you think there must be something wrong with the poll or its methods?

Gatling · 13-06-2016 11:53PM

I see trump put his spin on the shooter born afghan to afghan immigrants.

Sorry Donald mcstupid do understand born in america isn't Afghanistan

20Cent · 13-06-2016 11:58PM

Sand wrote: »

As pointed out above, the researchers likely did think of that. Peer pressure is not an unknown contaminant in polling. Anonymous interviews, held in private are an easy control.

I mean, if someone polled Socialist voters and found they were in favour of socialist policies - would you think there must be something wrong with the poll or its methods?

Wrong analogy. More correct would be interviewing regular citizens in East Germany during communist rule about their attitudes to the government. They'd most likely give the answers that would avoid themselves being punished. Doubt a consent form would really give much comfort.

Sand · 14-06-2016 12:04AM

20Cent wrote: »

Wrong analogy. More correct would be interviewing regular citizens in East Germany during communist rule about their attitudes to the government. They'd most likely give the answers that would avoid themselves being punished. Doubt a consent form would really give much comfort.

Its a perfectly good analogy - yours is the odd one. People who identify as Muslims and believe in Islam express Islamic views. Seriously, why is that hard for people to process? It reminds me of the funny headline when Pope Benedict was made pope to widespread disappointment given his views: "Catholic becomes Pope".

Jimmy Garlic · 14-06-2016 12:06AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would have realized that the imam in that video is a shia who gave the sermon in Orlando.

The killer was a sunni and attended a sunni mosque in Fort Pierce 2 hours drive from Orlando.

Apologies for my error.. Silly me. You are quite correct, he did indeed attend this mosque...

Haney noted that the Shariah Board of America to which the Fort Pierce mosque is linked is one of a number of Islamic groups that issue fatwas, or decrees, instructing Muslims how to comply with Islamic law in the United States.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/06/orlando-mosque-tied-to-case-hillarys-state-dept-scrubbed/#FT8JBYVrK4fOgpCI.99

http://www.wnd.com/2016/06/orlando-mosque-tied-to-case-hillarys-state-dept-scrubbed/

I wonder what the shariah boyos in that mosque think about gay people. can you guess what their opinion would be? Do you know that strict observance of Shariah law would require the execution of gay people?

20Cent · 14-06-2016 12:08AM

Sand wrote: »

Its a perfectly good analogy - yours is the odd one. People who identify as Muslims and believe in Islam express Islamic views. Seriously, why is that hard for people to process? It reminds me of the funny headline when Pope Benedict was made pope to widespread disappointment given his views: "Catholic becomes Pope".

Plenty of Catholics think things that go against catholic teaching. Are Muslims not the same? Would you risk your life for some researchers?

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 12:12AM

Omar Mateen had received extensive firearm training.

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 12:13AM

Gatling wrote: »

I see trump put his spin on the shooter born afghan to afghan immigrants.

Sorry Donald mcstupid do understand born in america isn't Afghanistan

At least there are no Irish Americans...

jackofalltrades · 14-06-2016 12:15AM

20Cent wrote: »

Because participants would be afraid to answer truthfully and would give the newer they think their government would want them to?
Other countries would be the same.

20Cent wrote: »

Would you trust your life with some researchers you never met before?

20Cent wrote: »

Would you risk your life for some researchers?

You actually need to prove that there was a risk to the 38,000 odd participants lives/safety by giving certain answers.
Just saying they would be afraid to answer truthfully isn't enough.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 12:18AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You actually need to prove that there was a risk to the 38,000 odd participants lives/safety by giving certain answers.
Just saying they would be afraid to answer truthfully isn't enough.

Leaving Islam or saying anything against it is a prison sentence if your lucky probably death. You don't think that would be a factor in answering those questions?

Gatling · 14-06-2016 12:20AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Omar Mateen had received extensive firearm training.

As do a lot of Americans ,

Many are taught by former Leo and former military including special forces

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 12:22AM

Mateen was also a regular at the club and exchanged messages with at least one gay man on a gay dating app....
......

Both Callen and Smith, who are married, tell the Canadian Press they stopped speaking to Mateen after he threatened them with a knife, apparently after someone made a joke about religion.

“He ended up pulling a knife,” Callen said. “He said if he ever messed with him again, you know how it’ll turn out.”

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-reportedly-a-regular-at-pulse-and-h-1781920316?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

RobertKK · 14-06-2016 12:24AM

Omar Mateen had visited the Pulse nightclub 12 times before he attacked it.

testaccount123 · 14-06-2016 12:25AM

Islam is homophobic. Extremist Islam is extremely homophobic.

Why some people's first instinct when 50 homosexuals are murdered is to go on line and vociferously defend homophobic ideology is beyond comprehension.

Why an actual homosexual would do it is beyond belief.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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