Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 12:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But you don't want to discuss Orlando.

Would that be Orlando Florida?

Home of the Religious Freedom Bill?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/10/23/florida_anti_gay_bill_would_let_doctors_and_hospices_refuse_to_serve_gays.html

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 12:41PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Are you choosing to avert your eyes from the background of Omar Mateen?

No Robert.

What do you think of Florida's Religious Freedom Bill?
Are you trying to claim only Muslims can be homophobic?

timthumbni · 13-06-2016 12:43PM

The sad and stupid thing here is that the pro gun lobby will use this as an excuse to encourage people to own more guns.

Just like they said that if the teachers at those school shootings had guns then they wouldn't have happened etc etc.

Has any of the big American politicians got the nerve to actually state the obvious that they need to urgently rethink their gun laws???

Instead we get Moses talking about from my cold, dead hands and people just lap it up. Wake up America.

jmayo · 13-06-2016 12:45PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

It's tragic that this has happened but you have to question how it was allowed. The man was under survelience by the FBI i a watch list was a suspect ISIS sympathiser but had not been prohibited from buying firearms. Videos circulating online today showing his father supporting radical Islam , yet hes not on a watch list etc.. and hed the brass neck to say yesterday that this was noting to do with religion. also videos showing a renowned hate preacher giving a sermon in an orlando Mosques calling for LGBT people to be killed , wheres the backlash against this ?

If this man had been white and a christian fundamentalist would people be saying it had nothing to do with his religious homophobic ideology. Why wont the western media condemn radical islam not just terrorisim but the hate preachers in the mosques , the sharia law etc that are fueling the terrorists. How can any non muslim still be defending islam and trottng out the religion of peace line, like it or not Islam is a religion or intoleracne , oppression , repression and violence.

The guy even had a security guard job in some institution.

Mateen had been employed since 2007 as a security guard with G4S, a large multinational security company that provides services to more than two-dozen juvenile-detention facilities in Florida

So much for G4S background checks. :rolleyes:
And maybe so much for FBI informing them of suspicions.

Gun control laws in the US stink and this is yet another example of how badly it works.

But you have had muppets like Richard Feldman, ex NRA lobbyist and now president of the Independent Firearm Owners Association making excuses.

Anyone that has been in the states know that Wall marts have a firearms counter where it is quiet scary to see what you can just buy.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 12:45PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would that be Orlando Florida?

Home of the Religious Freedom Bill?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/10/23/florida_anti_gay_bill_would_let_doctors_and_hospices_refuse_to_serve_gays.html

Why are you so afraid to deal with the actual killer and his background?

You divert it to everything and seem afraid to deal with the fact that the killer supported radical Islam.
Don't see you posting videos of that Muslm guy in Orlando who was advocating the killing of gay people.
You are at this stage starting to give cover to this killer by trying to avert it away from Islam in this case.

Call Me Jimmy · 13-06-2016 12:47PM

Homophobia is increasing in the US? Are you serious?

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 12:47PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No Robert.

What do you think of Florida's Religious Freedom Bill?
Are you trying to claim only Muslims can be homophobic?

No, but you want to discuss everything but Islam in this case.

orubiru · 13-06-2016 12:49PM

wes wrote: »

No one is doing that.

Things like motive etc are also important. There is no need to be reductive.

What is wrong, is when you take exception with others pointing out it was a deliberate attack on LGBT people as well.

I'm not taking exception. I am still referring to the attitude shown in the Sky News video earlier by the way.

Look, it was an attack clearly motivated by religious beliefs and I do not doubt that the targets were selected based on those religious beliefs.

(note, this does not mean that I blame the religion itself, there are many reasonable followers of religion who are perfectly good people)

I can agree on 2 points:

This was indeed an attack on the LGBTQ community, motivated by prejudice and hatred.

This is also an attack on democracy, personal freedoms, western cultural ideals and our secular society as a whole.

Both things are true and they are not mutually exclusive.

So, if someone says "it was an attack on people having a night out" then one of the least appropriate responses is to take issue with that and demand that the attack be exclusively recognised as an attack on the LGBTQ community.

The way I see this is that I agree with the point that this attack specifically targeted one section of society. What I do not agree with is the idea, and insistence, that this attack ONLY affects the targeted people. It does not.

It ultimately affects everyone.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 12:49PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That's just the thing though. As far as any of us know right now, it could be either.

I can't speak for other posters but personally I'm under no illusion that doing away with Islamic extremists will magically make hatred for the gay community disappear. I just don't see why there's such a desire to separate this into either a Homophobic attack or an Islamic extremist attack - it appears to be both, and both should be condemned.

I don't want to play down the role homophobia played in this attack. I just don't want to see the role of Islamic extremism played down either. And for clarity, I'm not one of those who wants to use this as an attack on Muslims.

Oh I know Dr JB.

I am not denying Islamic extremism is a threat -much as people claim I am.
I am saying that Christain extremism is also a threat to LGBTQI lives.

And given the polarisation of US society and politically sponsored homophobia is would be foolish to not look at the big picture.

American Christians took to twitter to rejoice. That must not be swept aside or dismissed by laying the blame completely at the feet of Islam as some have attempted to do.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 12:49PM

Hillary Clinton: at a minimum ISIS inspired the attack.
Source: CNN tv.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 12:51PM

RobertKK wrote: »

You are at this stage starting to give cover to this killer by trying to avert it away from Islam in this case.

How dare you!

That is absolutely uncalled for Robert.

I see you haven't changed your posting style in the last year/

beach_walker · 13-06-2016 12:51PM

I'm quite happy to live in a society where gun ownership is rare, hard to get and limited to sensible purposes/firearms.

I'm a bit surprised at the approach of the police though. I thought in an "active shooter" situation the position was to storm the premises and neutralise the shooter, not hold back ala Columbine. I watched a bit on a training ground for US police recently for this and that seemed to be the agreed upon best approach. Yet they stood back for a few hours in this case? Not saying they're in the wrong or anything, just confused on the matter.

Call Me Jimmy · 13-06-2016 12:52PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh I know Dr JB.

I am not denying Islamic extremism is a threat -much as people claim I am.
I am saying that Christain extremism is also a threat to LGBTQI lives.

And given the polarisation of US society and politically sponsored homophobia is would be foolish to not look at the big picture.

American Christians took to twitter to rejoice. That must not be swept aside or dismissed by laying the blame completely at the feet of Islam as some have attempted to do.

Christianity is not being used as the vehicle for spreading terror through violent means though, is that not a notable difference? Do you think that has something to do with people's focus on Islam here?

Renegade Mechanic · 13-06-2016 12:53PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I know sure look at all the mass shootings in countries that ban guns this year. Like errr well we had that hotel shooting in Ireland. That was by well organised gangs though while this was a lone wolf style attack (ISIS seem to have had no knowledge the attack was going to take place beforehand).

Curious as to how you feel about explosives being legal? They are easily made with the right knowledge and sure them being illegal won't stop a criminal as you said.

That or having gun control laws makes more annoying for criminals to get a hold of. They can also be taken off them easier again hurting their systems. Finally you also have to be alot more careful transporting the guns as it will cause a stir a lot quicker. Finally individual nuts will struggle to get weapons as easily. If I wanted to go on a spree I wouldn't know where to begin to get a weapon here. Don't see wandering up to the gangs shouting for someone to sell me a gun working. It also gives a delay that might allow me to lose my nerve a bit or just increase the odds of me getting caught first (during the period where I try to find a gun).

Seriously? I put literally ten seconds of thought into it and came up with this:
http://www.dustfreecommercial.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/3078493320_5fbf5f618d_o.jpg

And this.
http://arborist101.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/How-To-Start-a-Gas-Chainsaw.jpg

Who's going to stop you? Unless your very first target is level headed, and has pepper spray to hand. (which is illegal....) you're going to kill and maim a few people before others escape.

Or this:
http://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb/images/category/gallery-image/OTS_Ford_16-Explorer_604x382.jpg

And this:
http://www.leicestershirevillages.com/uploads/04h1049b.jpg

Please, don't fall for the lie that "sprees" are any less difficult, just because you can't walk into a shop and buy a firearm.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 12:53PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How dare you!

That is absolutely uncalled for Robert.

I see you haven't changed your posting style in the last year/

Well discuss the Islamic extremism with the Orlando massacre then. It is like the elephant in the room when it comes to your posts. You want to see everything else bar Islamic extremism.

Hillary Clinton has called it an Islamic extremist attack.

Little CuChulainn · 13-06-2016 12:54PM

beach_walker wrote: »

I'm quite happy to live in a society where gun ownership is rare, hard to get and limited to sensible purposes/firearms.

I'm a bit surprised at the approach of the police though. I thought in an "active shooter" situation the position was to storm the premises and neutralise the shooter, not hold back ala Columbine. I watched a bit on a training ground for US police recently for this and that seemed to be the agreed upon best approach. Yet they stood back for a few hours in this case? Not saying they're in the wrong or anything, just confused on the matter.

It was first reported that he had taken hostages.

RDM_83 again · 13-06-2016 12:56PM

Awake&Unafraid wrote: »

It is absolutely not irrelevant that this was an attack on the LGBT community these people were murdered BECAUSE THEY WERE LGBT. How difficult is this for people to understand like???

Were the attacks in Paris an attacks on Paris ever simply considered an attack Metal Fans?
I don't think anybody is denying that homophobia is a major component in the choice of target, however I am sure if there hadn't been a gay nightclub he would have chosen a different target that to his mind struck a blow against the Godless Western Society and the USA

Thats not to diminish the impact this attack has on a group thats suffered prejudice and attacks over the years.
I occasionally drink in a gay bar thats less than a 100 meters from a gay Bar that was bombed in a homophobic attack by a right wing extremist that had previously carried out race based attacks.
If we were talking about that case, homophobia in mainstream society, right wing rhetoric, fundamentalist Christianity, racism, angry white men would all be very much relevant topics because they influenced the attacker. In this case though they feel shoe-horned in.

orubiru · 13-06-2016 12:57PM

Awake&Unafraid wrote: »

It is absolutely not irrelevant that this was an attack on the LGBT community these people were murdered BECAUSE THEY WERE LGBT. How difficult is this for people to understand like???

"It is absolutely not irrelevant that this was an attack on the LGBT community these people were murdered BECAUSE THEY WERE LGBT. How difficult is this for people to understand like???"

OK. Compare.

"It is absolutely not irrelevant that this was an attack by a Muslim. These people were murdered BECAUSE HE WAS A MUSLIM. How difficult is this for people to understand like???"

That's how you sound. Like an inverted spectrum Donald Trump.

Gatling · 13-06-2016 01:03PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Hillary Clinton has called it an Islamic extremist attack.

Did she not say at minimum an isis inspired attack .

Which one is she quoted to have said

Michah · 13-06-2016 01:03PM

wes wrote: »

Except that this guy did hate LGBT people specifically. Again, his own father described his homophobia. It is utterly bizarre that people are refused to call this a homophobic attack.

Of course it is a homophobic attack. The killer drove ninety miles to the club so obviously targeted gay people. It's also an Islamic terrorist attack. The killer swore allegiance to the Islamic State.

It doesn't have to be either or.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 01:04PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

.... Er, did you hit some extra by accident yourself?

No that's the letters being used now, give it another week and an extra letter will be thrown in to accompany A.

Christy42 · 13-06-2016 01:05PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Seriously? I put literally ten seconds of thought into it and came up with this:
http://www.dustfreecommercial.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/3078493320_5fbf5f618d_o.jpg

And this.
http://arborist101.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/How-To-Start-a-Gas-Chainsaw.jpg

Who's going to stop you? Unless your very first target is level headed, and has pepper spray to hand. (which is illegal....) you're going to kill and maim a few people before others escape.

Or this:
http://file.kelleybluebookimages.com/kbb/images/category/gallery-image/OTS_Ford_16-Explorer_604x382.jpg

And this:
http://www.leicestershirevillages.com/uploads/04h1049b.jpg

Please, don't fall for the lie that "sprees" are any less difficult, just because you can't walk into a shop and buy a firearm.

Good luck getting to 50. People run away from crazy people with chainsaws which have no range. You will do some damage but a with small bit of training a firearm would do a lot more damage. There is a reason you don't see many sprees with chainsaws or the like.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 01:05PM

Gatling wrote: »

Did she not say at minimum an isis inspired attack .

Which one is she quoted to have said

Both.

Gatling · 13-06-2016 01:07PM

James Howell should be mentioned

White American stopped enroute to the LA gay pride with an arsenal of guns and explosives

wes · 13-06-2016 01:13PM

Michah wrote: »

It doesn't have to be either or.

That was what I was saying the entire time.

Michah · 13-06-2016 01:13PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That must not be swept aside or dismissed by laying the blame completely at the feet of Islam as some have attempted to do.

So extreme American Christians are partially responsible for a homophobic terrorist attack carried out by a Muslim Democrat in the name of Islamic State?

You must realise how ridiculous that sounds, right?

stoplooklisten · 13-06-2016 01:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

James Howell should be mentioned

White American stopped enroute to the LA gay pride with an arsenal of guns and explosives

A White American Bisexual... just for clarity

cowboyBuilder · 13-06-2016 01:16PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

https://lgbtai.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/13353_862364043824027_3577948761410441743_n.jpg
Will now wake up...
Noooo, not all Muslims want LGBT heads to roll, that's a dangerous statement. But just about all are against it at the very least to the point you can expect a loud chastisement or a slap over it.

Incredible, are these people mentally ill ?

What do they think would happen to them if the society they lived in became bound by Islamic laws ?

Thrown off a bridge or hung ?

take your pic lads!

13-06-2016 01:17PM

I heard yesterday "Why are they saying it's a gay club? Does that mean it doesn't matter as much!?" and now it's "Why are some people not mentioning it's a gay club, is it because they don't want to acknowledge it was homophobic!?". Some of the people, some of the time.

stoplooklisten · 13-06-2016 01:17PM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Incredible, are these people mentally ill ?

What do they think would happen to them if the society they lived in became bound by Islamic laws ?

Thrown off a bridge or hung ?

take your pic lads!

No, they'd become a paradise of freedom, like afghanistan is, if you're to believe this thread!

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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