Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

stoplooklisten · 13-06-2016 11:13AM

dav3 wrote: »

Nah, it's more like a homophobic, American nutcase, with access to guns that no citizen should have, carried out a hate crime because he's an evil bastard.

yeah or a lad who was mates with a suicide bomber and was investigated twice by the FBI and whose father has sympathy for the taliban

BattleCorp · 13-06-2016 11:15AM

dav3 wrote: »

Nah, it's more like a homophobic, American nutcase, with access to guns that no citizen should have, carried out a hate crime because he's an evil bastard.

Americans have a right to firearms if they want them. It's in their constitution. And to be honest, there isn't really the will to change it amongst the population. And even if the Government tried to ban them, each state has its own constitution so they would all have to be changed too. Good luck with that.

And that would do nothing to get rid of the + 300,000,000 guns that are already in circulation.

What guns do you think that citizens should have no access to?

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:15AM

Wibbs wrote: »

When I was growing up we imagined the Third World War to be mushroom clouds over the cities and wandering bands of irradiated survivors, we didn't imagine this.

And yeah I would see these times as a "World War"; there are two sides, it involves many nations throughout the world and thousands are dying throughout the world because of it.

Growing up as a child in the 80s...nuclear war was a possibility and then a child who watched a lot of news with the parents and my sister...thinking the IRA would come and kill all of us...

Superhorse · 13-06-2016 11:16AM

skinny90 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/qBlwxqqAprQ

I think it's worrying that this guy was in the news just two months ago more or less stating that gays should be killed

Posted that yesterday and got called a bigot and racist. Words fail me. This guys views unfortunately seem to be widespread in the Muslim community.

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:17AM

RobertKK wrote: »

He also held down a job in a company that provided security including for US federal buildings, airport security and it is one of the biggest security firms in the world.
Why was he not sacked if he was insane, everything points to him being sane.
None of your examples are Islamic terrorists.

The point is that insane people don't sit in the corner drooling and mumbling. They can hold down jobs. They can reload a weapon.
You seem to have a very narrow view of what insanity is. Some of the worst dictators the world has seen have been insane and they ruled countries. Being insane doesn't always stop people from functioning within society.

I'm no psychologist but what the guys exwife said sounds like the guy was pretty nuts to me.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-massacre-omar-mateens-ex-wife-says-he-beat-her-and-held-her-hostage

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:17AM

Grayson wrote: »

Incidentally in 2015 more people were shot and killed by toddlers in the US than by terrorists. That's messed up.

How many were killed by toddlers out of interest?
I remember some of the deaths.

Harika · 13-06-2016 11:17AM

Seems like the catholic church (look at the generalization) is quite happy that 50 gays are dead.

Sad truth is, that radical people from all religions are going hand in hand in a lot of topics.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:18AM

Grayson wrote: »

The point is that insane people don't sit in the corner drooling and mumbling. They can hold down jobs. They can reload a weapon.
You seem to have a very narrow view of what insanity is. Some of the worst dictators the world has seen have been insane and they ruled countries. Being insane doesn't always stop people from functioning within society.

I'm no psychologist but what the guys exwife said sounds like the guy was pretty nuts to me.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-massacre-omar-mateens-ex-wife-says-he-beat-her-and-held-her-hostage

I am posting what I heard experts in this area say. They don't believe he was insane.

Superhorse · 13-06-2016 11:19AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Growing up as a child in the 80s...nuclear war was a possibility and then a child who watched a lot of news with the parents and my sister...thinking the IRA would come and kill all of us...

Nuclear way is still a very real threat maybe even more so if America and the west continues it's policies of attempting to encircle Russia. Ukraine was the line in the sand for Russia and I do hope they learn a lesson from that for all our sakes. Sorry for going way off topic.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:20AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

What guns do you think that citizens should have no access to?

Their right to bear arms has been vastly abused over the years. If someone wants a gun for protection of their property, then fine. If they want a gun for hunting, fine too. But the culture of owning multiple weapons is a bit crazy and the whole maximum destruction mindset is ridiculous. I mean, in what scenario does a civilian ever need a fcuking assault rifle? Or 4/5 assault rifles?

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:21AM

Superhorse wrote: »

Posted that yesterday and got called a bigot and racist. Words fail me. This guys views unfortunately seem to be widespread in the Muslim community.

It's only bigotted and racist if you don't hold christians to the same standards.

The guy in that video is messed up. His opinions are wrong. I wouldn't say the guys feeling are held by a majority of muslims but I would agree that there are plenty of them that do agree with him.
I would also say that it's the same for christians. Remember Ted Cruz was introduced on stage by a pastor who said that gays should be killed. That Pastor has a following in the US too.

I think we can both agree, it doesn't matter which religion is saying it, those views are wrong. And it's scary that there are people that follow it.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-06-2016 11:25AM

RobertKK wrote: »

He also held down a job in a company that provided security including for US federal buildings, airport security and it is one of the biggest security firms in the world.
Why was he not sacked if he was insane, everything points to him being sane.
None of your examples are Islamic terrorists.

Any proof that the people involved in the examples i provided were insane? Insanity does not always manifest itself where it can be seen. Peter Sutcliffe, Thomas Hamilton, Harold Shipman all held down jobs, why were they not sacked?

You made the claim that he was sane, where is your evidence of this? His ex wife has described him as "mentally ill" with a violent temper.

JPNelsforearm · 13-06-2016 11:26AM

smash wrote: »

Their right to bear arms has been vastly abused over the years. If someone wants a gun for protection of their property, then fine. If they want a gun for hunting, fine too. But the culture of owning multiple weapons is a bit crazy and the whole maximum destruction mindset is ridiculous. I mean, in what scenario does a civilian ever need a fcuking assault rifle? Or 4/5 assault rifles?

Its none of your business, that what the scenario is, what someone does in their private life, what their hobby is, is none of your concern.

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:26AM

RobertKK wrote: »

How many were killed by toddlers out of interest?
I remember some of the deaths.

This was november last year

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-powers/toddlers-involved-in-more_b_8650536.html

“In 2015 so far, at least 13 toddlers have inadvertently killed themselves with firearms, 18 more injured themselves, 10 injured other people, and two killed other people.”

This one seems rather unfortunate at this point.
https://mic.com/articles/142348/in-2016-toddlers-have-killed-more-people-in-the-us-than-muslim-terrorists-have#.sSfXvzqDR

It's headline was "In 2016, Toddlers Have Shot More People in the US Than Muslim Terrorists Have" and it came from May of this year. at that point there was 23 toddler shootings and 0 terrorist ones. So that's obviously out of date at this point.

If you google "toddlers killed more" you'll see results from previous years as well, so it seems like this is a regular occurrence.

12Phase · 13-06-2016 11:27AM

I'm not at all religious, but gloating over a mass shooting is about as low as anyone can go.

Looking at basic concepts of christian teaching, spouting homophobic bile like that would seem rather contrary to *any* of the basic tenants that Chrsitianity claims to be all about - love thy neighbour and all of those things.

Narrow minded, narrow interpretations of religions to suit a bigoted, nasty, dangerous agenda.

I'd call them c***s but, that would be an insult to c***s. There has to be some more creative word that doesn't involve insulting body parts.

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:29AM

smash wrote: »

Their right to bear arms has been vastly abused over the years. If someone wants a gun for protection of their property, then fine. If they want a gun for hunting, fine too. But the culture of owning multiple weapons is a bit crazy and the whole maximum destruction mindset is ridiculous. I mean, in what scenario does a civilian ever need a fcuking assault rifle? Or 4/5 assault rifles?

Jim Jeffries has a great line about that. He says that people like this aren't interested in home security, you don't see them at a padlock, or alarm system convention or anything like that. They want guns because they like guns.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:29AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Anybody listening to and willing to act on the word of him or the WBC are quite clearly not right in the head to begin with and certainly don't need any "flames to be fanned".

Anyone who hates another human being enough to want to see them imprisoned, denied rights, killed, because of their colour, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity isn't - IMHO - right in the head.

Yet - there is a concerted effort to dismiss Christian extremism as of no importance while at the same time claiming that all Muslims are inherently homophobic.

A prominent U.S. politician who desired to become President- and garnered some significant support- is not only listening to Swanson - he is seen to attend his conferences and refuses to condemn Swanson's hate speech.
That is endorsement from the highest echelons of the political establishment.

While those who insist on 'warning' the LGBTQI community about the dangers of Fundie Islam continue to deny the threat of fundie Christianity then the majority of the Gay world will view these warnings with a large amount of cynicism.

We are not unaware of the threat - we are dubious about the intentions of those who are suddenly so concerned for our safety.
Telling us we 'embrace' Islam just reinforced our belief that some people are using an attack on our community to further their agenda.

A Right-Wing Agenda that is likely to turn on us just as quickly as it apparently leaped to our defense.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:30AM

The only people it is ok to kill are active terrorists and someone/people who are trying to kill you - kill in self defense.

All other advocation of killing is hate and a danger to society.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:32AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe you hold bitterness, I don't.

The problem in the world are people who are bitter and can't let things go, it causes hate.

Not even slightly bitter Robert.
Just pointing out a truth you find inconvenient.

JPNelsforearm · 13-06-2016 11:32AM

Grayson wrote: »

Jim Jeffries has a great line about that. He says that people like this aren't interested in home security, you don't see them at a padlock, or alarm system convention or anything like that. They want guns because they like guns.

Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with that, and you have no right to restrict them because YOU dont like what they like.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:33AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Its none of your business, that what the scenario is, what someone does in their private life, what their hobby is, is none of your concern.

It should be everyone's concern and everyone's business what someone does when they purchase a weapon which is design for maximum destruction. I can list strings and strings of mass shooting to suggest the reasons why people should be concerned.

Gatling · 13-06-2016 11:34AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with that, and you have no right to restrict them because YOU dont like what they like.

But there is something wrong when someone has a history of violence and irrational behavior having unfettered access to Guns and large amounts of ammunition

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:35AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Any proof that the people involved in the examples i provided were insane? Insanity does not always manifest itself where it can be seen. Peter Sutcliffe, Thomas Hamilton, Harold Shipman all held down jobs, why were they not sacked?

You made the claim that he was sane, where is your evidence of this? His ex wife has described him as "mentally ill" with a violent temper.

I don't know all or remember all of the cases you listed to give a proper answer, with Harold Shipman, he was a cold calculating serial killer of old people which allowed him to get away with it for so long as it was thought it was people dying from old age. He was not mentally healthy, but I don't think he was insane.

orubiru · 13-06-2016 11:38AM

12Phase wrote: »

I don't agree. I think you've got to see this in context. This is a very aggressive attack on a community that's only just managed to gain full equality in a handful of countries.

Gay people are still not only discriminated against but jailed and brutally killed in quite a few parts of the world. Even in the developed and secular world, there's still serious discrimination and communities that are still hidden out of sight.

We're only a year away from a rather grueling debate here in Ireland and thankfully, were now amongst the most progressive places in the world for LGBT rights. That doesn't mean that gay people in Ireland or in Britain have had it easy up until recently and there are still crazy issues with random homophobia, it's just no longer from officialdom. You're still looking at a community that's really only taking its first steps into being respected and being able to walk tall.

It's a very non random attack targeting that community. That's frightening for gay people and it hurts deeply. It means people don't feel safe and feel like they could be targeted for who they are. Not their politics, not their religion. It's very, very personal much like racism or attacks on women.

Owen Jones is an activist, a deep thinker and I suspect someone who cares passionately about what's going on around him. He's also gay.

To have to deal with two chattering class types trying abstract and intellectualise and discuss a situation like that in a remote, almost playing devil's advocate kind of way is incredibly hard to take when it's about an attack on your community.

Also I genuinely do think that LGBT hate crimes get a lot less attention than they should. This isn't just a generic attack on any nightclub. It's very definitely an attack on gay people. That's the simple point he was making.

The presenter kept trying to water that down to its an attack on people having a night out.

That's missing the point and so insensitive and just diluted it.

Believe me, it hurts. I'm gay myself and it resonates deeply. I'm also really familiar with the places in Brussels that were attacked used that metro station every day and that really left me shook up.

You can't just intellectualise or abstract these things. They're attacks on actual communities and this one hurts very badly as it's most definitely anything but random.

I can see exactly where he's coming from on this. Sadly, the presenter and other panelist didn't

Doesn't all this mean that people are essentially arguing over who should have ownership of this tragedy?

So because someone lived in Brussels or took a vacation to Paris one time they feel that they can appropriate the tragedy for their own uses? Usually that just means getting some kind of sympathetic or supportive response from their peers.

The people who were murdered belong to Group X and I also happen to belong to Group X therefore my sense of outrage or my feelings of despair are more than those who do not belong to Group X?

It looks to me like Owen Jones essentially stormed off because they other two presenters were refusing to let him "own" or "appropriate" the tragedy for himself.

It WAS an attack on people having a night out.

Let's say a terrorist group is going around attacking people at various venues. They are killing people at their offices, they are killing people at restaurants, they are killing people at concerts, they are killing people on public transport. Now, they kill people at an LGBTQ event. Why delineate at that point?

So basically you have people such as Owen Jones looking to selectively hijack tragedies in order to push their own agenda.

I'm sorry but I get the sense that people just want to own a little bit of the tragedy for themselves. Basically using it to get "one up" on their peers. I went to Paris once so this affects me more than you. I worked in Brussels for a year so this affects me more than you. I am part of the LGBT community so this affects me more than you.

I would question the appropriateness of essentially screaming "this is all about ME, and people like me".

As soon as something like this happens the ambulance chasers are out in force. Trying to claim a personalised slice of someone else's tragedy.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-06-2016 11:39AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't know all or remember all of the cases you listed to give a proper answer, with Harold Shipman, he was a cold calculating serial killer of old people which allowed him to get away with it for so long as it was thought it was people dying from old age. He was not mentally healthy, but I don't think he was insane.

You don't think a mass murderer was insane?

How about peter Sutcliffe (the Yorkshire ripper)?

cowboyBuilder · 13-06-2016 11:41AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Anyone who hates another human being enough to want to see them imprisoned, denied rights, killed, because of their colour, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity isn't - IMHO - right in the head.

Yet - there is a concerted effort to dismiss Christian extremism as of no importance while at the same time claiming that all Muslims are inherently homophobic.

A prominent U.S. politician who desired to become President- and garnered some significant support- is not only listening to Swanson - he is seen to attend his conferences and refuses to condemn Swanson's hate speech.
That is endorsement from the highest echelons of the political establishment.

While those who insist on 'warning' the LGBTQI community about the dangers of Fundie Islam continue to deny the threat of fundie Christianity then the majority of the Gay world will view these warnings with a large amount of cynicism.

We are not unaware of the threat - we are dubious about the intentions of those who are suddenly so concerned for our safety.
Telling us we 'embrace' Islam just reinforced our belief that some people are using an attack on our community to further their agenda.

A Right-Wing Agenda that is likely to turn on us just as quickly as it apparently leaped to our defense.

Do you honestly think Fundamental Christians are any where near a global threat as fundamental Islam is ?

Gatling · 13-06-2016 11:41AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You don't think a mass murderer was insane?

How about peter Sutcliffe (the Yorkshire ripper)?

Till were told by real experts we will have to take posters words for who's sane and who isn't

wes · 13-06-2016 11:42AM

orubiru wrote: »

It WAS an attack on people having a night out.

Except that we know from the words of his own father that he hated Gay people. It was clearly a homophobic attack, as well as an act of terrorism. I think it rather unfair that some people are down playing what was clearly an attack on LGBTQ people.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:46AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Not even slightly bitter Robert.
Just pointing out a truth you find inconvenient.

It is not an inconvenience, you would swear I had been advocating kill gay people.

In my life I have never said anything that could be considered anti gay to anybody I have ever met. When I meet someone, I treat them as I want to be treated.

I think it is bitter to bring something up from 13 months back, you are trying to isolate me, try to silence me.
When the referendum was over it was over. I thought the people who went to court over the result were highly stupid and going against the will of the people.
I think it was good that the people voted and people should be accepting of the result.
My views do change, I am not some fundamentalist who is stuck in my views.

I am very comfortable with myself and I will speak out against what happened in Orlando and the cause of why these people were murdered.
The cause in this case is Islamic fundamentalism and hate, and these two combinations go hand in hand.

seamus · 13-06-2016 11:46AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Anybody listening to and willing to act on the word of him or the WBC are quite clearly not right in the head to begin with and certainly don't need any "flames to be fanned".

Ah yes, the "no true scotsman" fallacy. This guy always loves to come out in these debates.

"It's nothing to do with hating gays, this guy is just an psycho outsider".

It's very easy to say any action as is that of a random nutjob, so as to distance oneself from it.

Let me put it this way;

Nobody goes around massacring disabled people. Because nobody talks about how evil they are. Nobody writes books and speeches turning populations against them.

Do you think that if homosexuality was completely unremarkable; if nobody gave it a blind bit of notice, that you would have nutjobs walking around targetting them?

No.

Every time you speak hate, you contribute to it. However little, that contribution to the hate now bears some liability for 50+ murders in Orlando.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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