Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 10:22AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

His father is an Afghani Taliban supporter and harsh critic of Pakistan.
His father supports one group of Muslims in a long running border dispute with another group of Muslims.

Much like most of the victims of Islamic fundamentalists are Muslims.

But let us not let facts get in the way.

Al Qaeda leader Zawahiri pledged his allegiance to the new leader of the Afghan Taliban last week.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 10:24AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Isn't all this 'my community' or 'your community' talk putting up walls or a barrier. A bit like how some communities like some Muslim communities have this barrier and fail to integrate.
It is one reason Islamic extremists choose to attack a gay nightclub, a Jewish kosher supermarket or Jewish building, blow up Catholic churches in places like Nigeria, kill Coptic Christians in Egypt, crucify Christians in Syria, blow up trains to attack people in general, attack cafes, attack music venues, attack hotels, attack holiday locations, blow up planes.
These terrorists see themselves as being separate and different to the rest of society. They see it as their community and cut off from the rest of society.

Sorry Robert.

I'm not buying this because I remember the charming things you had to say during the marriage debate and they were not calls for inclusivity and equality in a happy clappy we are all the same community spirit.
Far from it.

Suddenly now your tune has changed and it's gay and straight unite against unintegrated Muslim communities -

Tell me - did your Road to Damascus moment happen recently?
Did it include warnings about extremists from other religions?

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 10:27AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sorry Robert.

I'm not buying this because I remember the charming things you had to say during the marriage debate and they were not calls for inclusivity and equality in a happy clappy we are all the same community spirit.
Far from it.

Suddenly now your tune has changed and it's gay and straight unite against unintegrated Muslim communities -

Tell me - did your Road to Damascus moment happen recently?
Did it include warnings about extremists from other religions?

Maybe you should go back to the day of the referendum result and see what I posted then instead of making this a personal attack on me now.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 10:31AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Al Qaeda leader Zawahiri pledged his allegiance to the new leader of the Afghan Taliban last week.

Ted Cruz attended a Conference featuring Pastor Kevin Swanson last November.
Swanson has repeatedly asserted that the Bible calls for the death of gay people.
Cruz later said it was a mistake to attend while refusing to condemn the pastor's message.

This happened in the U.S where the murders occurred and involved a candidate for the GOP nomination for the Presidency. Care to discuss it?

seamus · 13-06-2016 10:32AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The majority of people are just trying to point out that extremists exist in all walks of life, so it's unfair to bash all members of a group because of the extremist's actions. Christian extremists are a useful example because we're from a historically largely Christian country and people already know not all Christians are bad people.

This, but at the same time those who spread hate have some responsibility for fanning the flames of the actions of this extremist, regardless of religion.

The Christian right in the US put forward over 100 anti-LGBT bills in the last 18 months.

And then offer their bland condolences over this massacre.

They have a hand in it. They share some of the blame. By being hateful, you legitimise hate. You encourage others to hate, you give them the false belief that they are justified in their actions.
Hateful statements about the gay community are seized upon by this psycho and his ilk as proof of some kind of ideological war between "the gays" and "everyone else", where no such war exists.

It's nothing to do with Islam specifically. Islam and its brother religions preach and legitimise hate against homosexuals. They are all to blame for this, as are anyone who defends these religions' stances on homosexuality.

Until the world stands up and tells them, "Sure, you can say it's part of your religion, but that doesn't mean you're not a vile cvnt", this extremist idiot and his like will continue carrying out attacks like this.

Naturally of course, the shooter was probably gay and really, really hated himself. It really takes self-loathing and hurt to develop a level of hatred so strong that you'll take an automatic weapon and start shooting people. A self-hatred of course fuelled by the anti-gay agenda of the major religions.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 10:33AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Maybe you should go back to the day of the referendum result and see what I posted then instead of making this a personal attack on me now.

Nope.
Congrats after the fact doesn't change what you had to say during the debate.

Pointing out that you are singing from a different song sheet now is not a personal attack. It is a matter of record.

13-06-2016 10:33AM

skinny90 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/qBlwxqqAprQ

I think it's worrying that this guy was in the news just two months ago more or less stating that gays should be killed

yes but isn't it worrying the coverage trump gets for spouting hatred and intolerance too? he has clever aides a nice tie and new white smile?. c'mon you see hatred preached everyday in the states, it's an asylum FFS.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 10:33AM

seamus wrote: »

This, but at the same time those who spread hate have some responsibility for fanning the flames of the actions of this extremist, regardless of religion.

The Christian right in the US put forward over 100 anti-LGBT bills in the last 18 months.

And then offer their bland condolences over this massacre.

They have a hand in it. They share some of the blame. By being hateful, you legitimise hate. You encourage others to hate, you give them the false belief that they are justified in their actions.
Hateful statements about the gay community are seized upon by this psycho and his ilk as proof of some kind of ideological war between "the gays" and "everyone else", where no such war exists.

It's nothing to do with Islam specifically. Islam and its brother religions preach and legitimise hate against homosexuals. They are all to blame for this, as are anyone who defends these religions' stances on homosexuality.

Until the world stands up and tells them, "Sure, you can say it's part of your religion, but that doesn't mean you're not a vile cvnt", this extremist idiot and his like will continue carrying out attacks like this.

Naturally of course, the shooter was probably gay and really, really hated himself. It really takes self-loathing and hurt to develop a level of hatred so strong that you'll take an automatic weapon and start shooting people. A self-hatred of course fuelled by the anti-gay agenda of the major religions.

What a completely nonsensical post. Did any of those Christians say to murder anybody?

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 10:37AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

What a completely nonsensical post. Did any of those Christians say to murder anybody?

Christians like Kevin Swanson?

Funny you should ask.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 10:39AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Christians like Kevin Swanson?

Funny you should ask.

Anybody listening to and willing to act on the word of him or the WBC are quite clearly not right in the head to begin with and certainly don't need any "flames to be fanned".

skinny90 · 13-06-2016 10:41AM

rusty cole wrote: »

skinny90 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/qBlwxqqAprQ

I think it's worrying that this guy was in the news just two months ago more or less stating that gays should be killed

yes but isn't it worrying the coverage trump gets for spouting hatred and intolerance too? he has clever aides a nice tie and new white smile?. c'mon you see hatred preached everyday in the states, it's an asylum FFS.

Yes but here lies an extremist living in Florida, preaching away for gays to be killed. Surely you'd expect fbi or who ever to have some sort of intervention if this is broadcasted on a public domain

Fleawuss · 13-06-2016 10:41AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If I 'embraced' Islam I would be Muslim. Which I am not.
I have many many issues with Islam just as I have with the other two Abrahamic religions but in the same way I do not think all RC clergy are child abusers I do not think all Muslims are terrorists.

What I am is someone who grew up in a society where homosexuality was at best frowned upon and at worst a sick justification for murder.
What it always was was a thing to be feared.
What it always was was reason to discriminate, bully, intimidate.

Fear mongering and lies.

We fought every step of the way to wrench first legal protection and then equality and we haven't forgotten who we had to fight. It was priests preaching from the pulpit or a pope who claimed if we got married it would lead to the destruction of humanity.

And now you are surprised that the LGBTI Community recognise fear mongering and lies when we see them and say not in our name?

Guess you had to have lived it to understand.

Having lived it I do understand.I see from another post that you point out that fear mongering "isn't going to help the situation". Therein lies the disconnect from many ordinary people looking at this and other atrocities. A great deal of the commentary from politicians is about keeping a lid on divisions which could boil over and make a bad situation worse. The problem is that the truth is very obvious and attempting to spin the truth discredits the worthwhile goal of keeping the lid on division.

The truth is that there is a problem with Islamic extremism. Extremism has its roots in an interpretation of Islam but they claim that their interpretation is valid. Islam in general has a poor view of women and a poor view of gays. Its views on both are at odds with Western European secular societies. There is a serious problem with assimilating people from a culture/religion so dissimilar to ours. It is a problem because you cannot argue people out of a view if they believe it has divine origin. A lot of ordinary people see this and find the carefully phrased talk of Obama and others just spin and a refusal of the state to carry out its first duty: to protect its citizens. Somewhere in there, Trump's language reaches people.

I know about fear mongering and lies and I don't want those applied to anyone like they were to us. But we defeated them with the lived truth of lives: of ordinary people making a contribution as brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and sons and daughters. The lies lost power because the truth was so obvious to people.

So I take a slightly different view to you; all revealed religions are dangerous to humanity because they claim that they have specific information directly from an uncontradictable source, god, about how people should live. Orlando was a direct attack on the gay community by a homophobe who declared his allegiance to the views of a religious extremist group who want to kill gays and destroy western civilization based on their belief that their version of god has sanctioned it. Mixed up in there is western imperialism in the middle east and the running sore that is Palestine and their own intra Muslim sectarianism.

I don't know how you sort this out. I do know that there are more views in the gay community than just yours and mine.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-06-2016 10:43AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Anybody listening to and willing to act on the word of him or the WBC are quite clearly not right in the head to begin with and certainly don't need any "flames to be fanned".

But the Orlando shooter was the epitome of sane? :rolleyes:

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 10:45AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But the Orlando shooter was the epitome of sane? :rolleyes:

I didn't say anything even close to that.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 10:51AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ted Cruz attended a Conference featuring Pastor Kevin Swanson last November.
Swanson has repeatedly asserted that the Bible calls for the death of gay people.
Cruz later said it was a mistake to attend while refusing to condemn the pastor's message.

This happened in the U.S where the murders occurred and involved a candidate for the GOP nomination for the Presidency. Care to discuss it?

Ted Cruz was a more scary option compared to both Hillary and Trump.

cowboyBuilder · 13-06-2016 10:53AM

Always amazed of the LGBT communities support for Islamists.

Crazy world we live in - you criticize Muslim homophobia and you are "Islamaphobic"

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 10:53AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nope.
Congrats after the fact doesn't change what you had to say during the debate.

Pointing out that you are singing from a different song sheet now is not a personal attack. It is a matter of record.

Maybe you hold bitterness, I don't.

The problem in the world are people who are bitter and can't let things go, it causes hate.

Gatling · 13-06-2016 11:00AM

The victims identified so far in the Orlando shooting .

Stanley Almodovar III, 23
Amanda Alvear, 25
Darryl Roman Burt II, 29
Deonka Deidra Drayton, 32
Peter O. Gonzalez-Cruz, 22
Juan Ramon Guerrero, 22
Eddie Jamoldroy Justice, 30
Anthony Luis Laureanodisla, 25
Alejandro Barrios Martinez, 21
Kimberly Morris, 37
Luis Omar Ocasio-Capo, 20
Eric Ivan Ortiz-Rivera, 36
Jean Carlos Mendez Perez, 35
Edward Sotomayor Jr., 34
Martin Benitez Torres, 33
Franky Jimmy Dejesus Velazquez, 50
Luis S. Vielma, 22
Luis Daniel Wilson-Leon, 37

stoplooklisten · 13-06-2016 11:01AM

right, so this muslim guy shot people for the christians :rolleyes:

have i got that right?

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:03AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But the Orlando shooter was the epitome of sane? :rolleyes:

He was sane according to people who deal with things like this. He had a plan, unfortunately carried it out to perfection and then decided to get himself killed for however many virgins he thinks he will get.
If he had been insane he might not have killed as many, he is said to have expertly loaded up the assault rifle so quickly that he would have needed training to be so good at it.
This was all well planned to cause as much death as possible.

Christy42 · 13-06-2016 11:07AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Always amazed of the LGBT communities support for Islamists.

Crazy world we live in - you criticize Muslim homophobia and you are "Islamaphobic"

Do all Christians believe things like Iona? Should Iona be held against everyone who is a Christian.

Different level given Mr. Quinn just wants to reduce rights and not gun down LGBT people but same principle applies. Critisize those that think that think that LGBT people shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. Regardless of religion.

Don't criticise those that accept LGBT people regardless of their religion. (Unless you there is another reason to).

Wibbs · 13-06-2016 11:08AM

When I was growing up we imagined the Third World War to be mushroom clouds over the cities and wandering bands of irradiated survivors, we didn't imagine this.

And yeah I would see these times as a "World War"; there are two sides, it involves many nations throughout the world and thousands are dying throughout the world because of it.

JPNelsforearm · 13-06-2016 11:08AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

right, so this muslim guy shot people for the christians :rolleyes:

have i got that right?

No, its a gun control issue, white males and their gun fetish have created the environment whereby assault machine rifles are readily available.

Seriously

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/gun-culture-american-south-second-amendment-orlando

White males, the NRA and the second amendment.

Thats the problem:rolleyes:

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:08AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Having lived it I do understand.I see from another post that you point out that fear mongering "isn't going to help the situation". Therein lies the disconnect from many ordinary people looking at this and other atrocities. A great deal of the commentary from politicians is about keeping a lid on divisions which could boil over and make a bad situation worse. The problem is that the truth is very obvious and attempting to spin the truth discredits the worthwhile goal of keeping the lid on division.

The truth is that there is a problem with Islamic extremism. Extremism has its roots in an interpretation of Islam but they claim that their interpretation is valid. Islam in general has a poor view of women and a poor view of gays. Its views on both are at odds with Western European secular societies. There is a serious problem with assimilating people from a culture/religion so dissimilar to ours. It is a problem because you cannot argue people out of a view if they believe it has divine origin. A lot of ordinary people see this and find the carefully phrased talk of Obama and others just spin and a refusal of the state to carry out its first duty: to protect its citizens. Somewhere in there, Trump's language reaches people.

I know about fear mongering and lies and I don't want those applied to anyone like they were to us. But we defeated them with the lived truth of lives: of ordinary people making a contribution as brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and sons and daughters. The lies lost power because the truth was so obvious to people.

So I take a slightly different view to you; all revealed religions are dangerous to humanity because they claim that they have specific information directly from an uncontradictable source, god, about how people should live. Orlando was a direct attack on the gay community by a homophobe who declared his allegiance to the views of a religious extremist group who want to kill gays and destroy western civilization based on their belief that their version of god has sanctioned it. Mixed up in there is western imperialism in the middle east and the running sore that is Palestine and their own intra Muslim sectarianism.

I don't know how you sort this out. I do know that there are more views in the gay community than just yours and mine.

I think you're missing the point that all abrahamic religions are incompatible with western secular democracy. The reason that we don't see it happening with christianity as much here is because people don't take christianity seriously. A recent EU study found that something like 40% of people in Ireland who said they were catholic on a census form don't believe in live after death. In places where christianity is still taken seriously like Russia and Uganda there are serious problems.

The most anti gay stuff I've heard in ireland is from christian emigrants from countries like that.

On a side note, I just read this. I think islam is a red herring with regards to this discussion.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/orlando-shootings-guardian-editorial

The guy was psychotic. He was violent, nasty and abusive. I don't think islam turned him into this. I think he started out that way and used islam to vent his rage. He could have just as easily been christian, jewish or any other ideology which can be interpreted violently.

13-06-2016 11:08AM

Motive means and opportunity, very little can be done about motive but lots can be done about means and opportunity.

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-06-2016 11:09AM

RobertKK wrote: »

He was sane according to people who deal with things like this. He had a plan, unfortunately carried it out to perfection and then decided to get himself killed for however many virgins he thinks he will get.
If he had been insane he might not have killed as many, he is said to have expertly loaded up the assault rifle so quickly that he would have needed training to be so good at it.
This was all well planned to cause as much death as possible.

The same could be said about Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia tech and many more mass murders over the years. Do you believe the perpetrators of the above examples were also sane?

dav3 · 13-06-2016 11:10AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

right, so this muslim guy shot people for the christians :rolleyes:

have i got that right?

Nah, it's more like a homophobic, American nutcase, with access to guns that no citizen should have, carried out a hate crime because he's an evil bastard.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:12AM

Wibbs wrote: »

When I was growing up we imagined the Third World War to be mushroom clouds over the cities and wandering bands of irradiated survivors, we didn't imagine this.

Same. A war of nations as opposed to a war on an ideology.

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:12AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No, its a gun control issue, white males and their gun fetish have created the environment whereby assault machine rifles are readily available.

Seriously

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/gun-culture-american-south-second-amendment-orlando

White males, the NRA and the second amendment.

Thats the problem:rolleyes:

Incidentally in 2015 more people were shot and killed by toddlers in the US than by terrorists. That's messed up.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:13AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The same could be said about Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia tech and many more mass murders over the years. Do you believe the perpetrators of the above examples were also sane?

He also held down a job in a company that provided security including for US federal buildings, airport security and it is one of the biggest security firms in the world.
Why was he not sacked if he was insane, everything points to him being sane.
None of your examples are Islamic terrorists.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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