Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

12-06-2016 07:06PM

Was the shooter an ISIS member or acting alone?

Manic Moran · 12-06-2016 07:07PM

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Whether it's ISIS or some Florida locals, a hostage situation is terrorism by definition.

Disagree. Terrorism tends to require some sort of political differences. Hostage situations can just be a bank robber who didn't make his getaway in time and is desperate.

RobertKK wrote: »

Omar Mateen worked for a security company that provided security for US governmental buildings.
He was on a terrorist watchlist, so how could he be allowed to work for a security company.
Also why are people on terrorist watchlists not precluded from buying a firearm?
They really need to get their act together in the US.

You may have noticed, we're kindof big on individual rights here in the US. One of those is the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. A watchlist is just that, not a conviction.

I note the police used one of those despised armored vehicles to make the assault, and one cop was hit straight in the head in his mil spec kevlar helmet which saved his life. Complaints about militarisation of US police tend to forget that on occasion, such equipment is useful.

12Phase wrote: »

If everyone in the club started firing guns while probably after a lot of drinks, in bad lighting, with limited or no experience of sharp shooting, do you seriously think they'd have done much more than cause further deaths and injuries to bystanders ?!

What bystanders? They were closer to fish in the proverbial barrel than bystanders, just people he hadn't gotten around to shooting yet. Bystanders are usually people who have nothing to do with the incident, neither shooter nor target.

I just took my routine pistol qualification with the Army last weekend. Scored 'Expert', the top ranking. I occasionally go to nightclubs. I can't see how the presence of anyone similarly situated to me (and there are plenty of us) would have made matters much worse than hanging around waiting to see if we'd all be shot/blown up etc.

my friend · 12-06-2016 07:07PM

LightsStillOn wrote: »

This comment pops up every time something like this happens, and again there is an endless amount of Muslims condemning this all over the world, as they always do.

The 65000 that live here had an opportunity to state their objections last July

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0726/717314-is-rally/

50 showed up

We know enough

Severard · 12-06-2016 07:08PM

20Cent wrote: »

How will alienating the 99.9% of peaceful Muslims be smart?

Peaceful?

There are currently 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, in 2013 Pew research released a study that showed that 27% of Muslims - which is 237 million people believe that those who leave the faith should be put to death. With honour killings, 39% (345 million) believe it is right to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk

There are most certainly peaceful Muslims, such as those that are part of the Quilliam foundation in the U.K. yet it should not be taken away from the fact that those that carry out these attacks are Muslim with Islamic leanings.

RobertKK · 12-06-2016 07:09PM

RoboKlopp wrote: »

And my point being easy access to guns =more gun deaths.

Fair enough, but in cases like today, I don't think any law would have prevented it.

AnonoBoy · 12-06-2016 07:09PM

my friend wrote: »

The 65000 that live here had an opportunity to state their objections last July

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0726/717314-is-rally/

50 showed up

We know enough

I never attended any rallies against the IRA but I'm who they claimed to represent.

By your logic I was a supporter of the IRA.

Billy86 · 12-06-2016 07:10PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The stony silence from muslims when things like this happen, you could hear a pin drop. Where is the condemnation? Islam shouldn't be tolerated as long as mainstream Muslims tolerate extremism and consent to it with their silence. The lefty nutters are asking us to tolerate something that would turn around and chop their heads off given the first opportunity.

Literally one google search, less than 5 minutes, and only the first few links clicked into and...

http://www.local10.com/news/muslim-community-condemns-orlando-attack-calls-for-blood-donations

PEMBROKE PARK, Fla. - In response to a nightclub shooting in Orlando Sunday morning, members of the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations are urging Muslims to donate blood to those who are injured.

"We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured," Rasha Munarak, the CAIR Florida Orlando regional coordinator. "The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence."

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-floridas-imams-condemn-terror/38660742

"Over 1.6 billion people are practicing Islam peacefully, and that's what Islam is all about," Islamic Center of Orlando Imam Tariq Rasheed said. "It's a religion of peace and love and we feel these people have hi-jacked our peaceful religion and they are manipulating it."

Rasheed said hate has no place in Islam and that anyone associated with radical groups, like ISIS, is "not a true Muslim."

He said the teachings of peace shared in his mosque, others throughout Central Florida and elsewhere, shouldn't be marred by terror.

"In this fight against ISIS we are all united. Muslims want to fight against ISIS. And Muslim people, we truly believe that ISIS people have nothing to do with Islam. They are abusing the word of Islam to justify their inhuman acts," Rasheed said.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-reaction-20160612-story.html

The American Muslim Community Centers is saddened and shocked by the senseless killings in downtown Orlando, and we pray for the victims and their family members. “AMCC and its members offer their deepest condolences to those affected by this tragedy, and we stand with our fellow Americans in this difficult time. ... Senseless violence has no place in our religion or in our society.” -- Chairman Atif Fareed of American Muslim Community Centers, a mosque in Longwood

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/06/12/50-dead-in-early-morning-terror-attack-on-orlando-fla-nightclub.htm

Imam Muhammad Musri, president of the Central Florida Islamic Society condemned Sunday's act of violence. "I'm here to today to stand as a faith leader with our law enforcement community and our city leadership in this hour of horror that was brought upon our city. Please call the FBI and share what you know."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-investigators-operating-on-theory-that-1465750210-htmlstory.html

The Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations condemned the Orlando, Fla., nightclub shooting in a statement, and said it will call on the Muslim community to take part in a blood drive for those wounded in the attack Sunday. "We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured," the statement said. "The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence."

https://twitter.com/rafat/status/742009421442744320

As an American Muslim in month of Ramadan, hard to comprehend except to say LGBT community has stood for us, our time to do same. #Orlando

https://twitter.com/ImamMMusri/status/741995627450531840?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

On behalf of American Muslims, I want to express our outrage and shock of the mass shooting in DT Orlando, FL....

https://twitter.com/CAIRNational/status/742026115057897472

#PrayforOrlando: #CAIR [Centre for American - Islamic Relations] Condemns Orlando Attack, Urges Muslims to Donate Blood for Injured Victims

https://twitter.com/shahed/status/741982756859744256

I stand in solidarity w/the LGBT community in the face of homophobic violence b/c they always stood in solidarity w/mine

https://twitter.com/WajahatAli/status/742007621356376064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

As an American Muslim I stand in solidarity with LGBT brothers & sisters after this horrific #Orlando shooting. Let me know how I can help.

Sand · 12-06-2016 07:10PM

CSF wrote: »

Elliot Rodger was a walking billboard for the massive male entitlement issue that leads to a very high proportion of sexual attacks. His world view was absolutely representative of a larger number of people. Male on female violence is far more prevalent than islamic violence.

However people don't want to use a problem belonging to a smaller number of people as being representative of white males as large, so they get classified as lone wolves.

Elliot Rodger was a deranged socially autistic narcissist who was violently outraged that women didn't recognise how brilliant he was, and was even more enraged that he was show up by 'lesser' men who were successful with women. He killed more men than women in his shooting spree, and planned to murder his younger brother - not to protect him from evil women, but to ensure his younger brother could not outperform him and succeed where he could not. He was jealous of men who outperformed him.

Rodger's act were rooted in his own mental delusions, not gender politics.

20Cent · 12-06-2016 07:11PM

Severard wrote: »

Peaceful?

There are currently 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, in 2013 Pew research released a study that showed that 27% of Muslims - which is 237 million people believe that those who leave the faith should be put to death. With honour killings, 39% (345 million) believe it is right to do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk

There are most certainly peaceful Muslims, such as those that are part of the Quilliam foundation in the U.K. yet it should not be taken away from the fact that those that carry out these attacks are Muslim with Islamic leanings.

Peaceful as in not being violent. Or are we including thought crimes here?
Christians believe that that those who do not believe in Christ should burn in hell for eternity.

What is the advantage of declaring war on all of Islam? as opposed to the tiny percentage of it which is a problem?

Samaris · 12-06-2016 07:12PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I just took my routine pistol qualification with the Army last weekend. Scored 'Expert', the top ranking. I occasionally go to nightclubs. I can't see how the presence of anyone similarly situated to me (and there are plenty of us) would have made matters much worse than hanging around waiting to see if we'd all be shot/blown up etc.

Does your routine marksman training require you to score "Expert" on a moving target surrounding by lots of other panicking moving targets in a dark, packed, deafening atmosphere? If there were two of you and both of you were trying to hit him, would you be able to identify which was the one shooting people and which was the one also trying to help? If a police officer started shooting, would you be able to immediately identify that he was a police officer and not to shoot him, or is there even the remotest possibility that you could mistake him for the shooter and open fire on them? Could they identify you as a military man trying to protect the people around you in the packed, panicked, dark, loud atmosphere?

Just curious.

My name is URL · 12-06-2016 07:16PM

my friend wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0726/717314-is-rally/

50 people attended that Rally - 50!

50 out of an estimated population of 65000

That's not even 1/10th of 1%

Out of interest, how many anti-IRA rallies did you attend when the IRA were murdering people here and in Britain?

Why should ordinary people who happen to be muslims and just want to get on with their lives feel like they need to apologise on behalf of others just to appease people that don't want to be appeased in the first place?

Be honest, it doesn't matter how many people attend such rallies, it'll never be enough as far as you're concerned.

Whenever there is a rally against extremism with a decent turnout, the usual lot move on to the next predictable argument and start cribbing about Taqiyya. "Oh of course they're gonna say they condemn it, they're taught to do that"

RobertKK · 12-06-2016 07:16PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

You may have noticed, we're kindof big on individual rights here in the US. One of those is the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. A watchlist is just that, not a conviction.

I note the police used one of those despised armored vehicles to make the assault, and one cop was hit straight in the head in his mil spec kevlar helmet which saved his life. Complaints about militarisation of US police tend to forget that on occasion, such equipment is useful.

A watchlist is not a conviction, but if there is any concern, then why allow weapons be sold to such a person?

Yeah, the police need to have all the equipment needed to deal with these situations.

rjpf1980 · 12-06-2016 07:20PM

This guy nails it:

JPNelsforearm · 12-06-2016 07:20PM

RobertKK wrote: »

A watchlist is not a conviction, but if there is any concern, then why allow weapons be sold to such a person?

Yeah, the police need to have all the equipment needed to deal with these situations.

Just dont let them into the country, then no need for watchlists, the NSA, patriot act, police state.

Matt Markinson · 12-06-2016 07:21PM

Blaming this killing on all Muslims and Christians will be solid gold for Trump's election campaign.
He can't loose either way if this agenda ridden spin is kept up instead of sticking with the facts.
Let's not forget that Hitler came to power by blaming all the Jews and their religion for all the woes of Germany.
Any minute now either a left wing or right wing internet Nazi will be along to attempt to use the meme Godwin's "law" (invented to prevent anyone negatively highlighting Nazi like behaviour from either the left or right extremists) to silence this fact.

Severard · 12-06-2016 07:21PM

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Lol. Hardly a large sample size in France was it.

13,000 killed by guns in the states last year and over 400 mass shootings. This indicates a bit of an issue with guns

80% of gun deaths in America are gang-related [1]. These weapons should not be in the hands of these criminals yet they still manage to acquire them.

The U.S. has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world yet it is no where near the top of the list when it comes to homicides per capita it is outside the top 100 with only 3.7 per 100,000 [2].

Murders from guns have been falling steadily for years in the U.S. & it is not nearly as bad as some would like to paint it.

[1] http://usconservatives.about.com/od/capitalpunishment/a/Putting-Gun-Death-Statistics-In-Perspective.htm

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Samaris · 12-06-2016 07:23PM

I also don't think that anyone is decrying the use of force (and military gear) when it is clearly neccessary, such as last night. Just the increase in its use for routine stuff.

Hells, all these conversations are had after every shooting, plus the extra one for Islam as this guy was a Muslim and took ISIS as a role model. None of them make the slightest bit of difference. There are fifty young, innocent people dead. There are countless more whose lives will never be the same. No amount of chucking around the usual political crap will help a single one of them heal faster, or help any of their families deal with the enormity of what's happened to them.

For the inevitable gun debate, yes, there are some situations where a gun in the right hands can save lives by killing someone else. I don't think last night was one of them.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Just dont let them into the country, then no need for watchlists, the NSA, patriot act, police state.

He was BORN THERE.

RobertKK · 12-06-2016 07:28PM

ISIS have claimed responsibility for the attack.

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/742060097866768384

The_Valeyard · 12-06-2016 07:30PM

RobertKK wrote: »

ISIS have claimed responsibility for the attack.

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/742060097866768384

I'm taking that with a pinch of salt. Isis often claim responsibility or 'inspiration' for attacks.

But could be them asshats.

Michah · 12-06-2016 07:30PM

Shooter: Calls 911 pledging allegiance to ISIS

Obama: "There was no motivation for the attacks".

Utterly pathetic.

Billy86 · 12-06-2016 07:31PM

Severard wrote: »

When a Christain, Buddist or Jew carries out an attack & states that their reason for doing it was their ideology then sure that is true - when it happens.

Ok.

Here are your Christian - Lords Resistance Army, The National Liberation Front of Tripura, The Ku Klux Klan, The Antiibalaka, and The Christian Identity Movement.
Here are your Buddhists - Bodu Bala Sena
Here are your Jews - Irgun, Lahi, Zionists across Israel/Palestine.

So at least you're consistent then, that Christians, Buddhist and Jewish extremists are in the same boat as Muslim ones.

And how many of the acts of terrorism that happen every year are carried out by Christians, Buddists, and Jews & their actions are based on their religion?

Quite a lot, actually. They just rarely get mentioned on the news because people being killed in India isn't going to sell papers or get clicks, and when we do hear about them they are referred to as "warlords" rather than "terrorists" - The LRA are probably the best example of this.

Severard · 12-06-2016 07:31PM

20Cent wrote: »

Peaceful as in not being violent. Or are we including thought crimes here?
Christians believe that that those who do not believe in Christ should burn in hell for eternity.

What is the advantage of declaring war on all of Islam? as opposed to the tiny percentage of it which is a problem?

1) It is not a tought crime. As stated in the video it is to actually kill someone for leaving Islam or honour killings.

2) When did I say to "declare war" on all of Islam?

Michah · 12-06-2016 07:32PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I'm taking that with a pinch of salt. Isis often claim responsibility or 'inspiration' for attacks.

But could be them asshats.

He called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS just before he carried out the attack.

Billy86 · 12-06-2016 07:37PM

my friend wrote: »

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0726/717314-is-rally/

50 people attended that Rally - 50!

50 out of an estimated population of 65000

That's not even 1/10th of 1%

Words not required

When was the last time you organised a rally to condemn the Lords Resistance Army & co? Assuming you are a Christian, and if you are not then what about your Christian friends? You don't seem too bothered about that, though?

RobertKK · 12-06-2016 07:38PM

Horrible for the owner of the nightclub, apparently she opened the nightclub as a tribute to her brother who was gay and who had died of AIDS.

The whole situation is just beyond tragic.

20Cent · 12-06-2016 07:40PM

Severard wrote: »

1) It is not a tought crime. As stated in the video it is to actually kill someone for leaving Islam or honour killings.

2) When did I say to "declare war" on all of Islam?

It is a thought crime until someone actually commits the act.

Severard · 12-06-2016 07:44PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Ok.

Here are your Christian - Lords Resistance Army, The National Liberation Front of Tripura, The Ku Klux Klan, The Antiibalaka, and The Christian Identity Movement.
Here are your Buddhists - Bodu Bala Sena
Here are your Jews - Irgun, Lahi, Zionists across Israel/Palestine.

So at least you're consistent then, that Christians, Buddhist and Jewish extremists are in the same boat as Muslim ones.

Quite a lot, actually. They just rarely get mentioned on the news because people being killed in India isn't going to sell papers or get clicks, and when we do hear about them they are referred to as "warlords" rather than "terrorists" - The LRA are probably the best example of this.

The majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims. Just in 2016 alone the numbers speak for themselves [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January%E2%80%93June_2016

Aineoil · 12-06-2016 07:53PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Horrible for the owner of the nightclub, apparently she opened the nightclub as a tribute to her brother who was gay and who had died of AIDS.

The whole situation is just beyond tragic.

That is tragic and as events unfold we will hear more tragic stories, unfortunately.

RIP to those who those who lost their life on a night out. My heartfelt thoughts are with the families who lost their loved ones.

My thoughts are also with the the injured.....I hope they recover physically.
Mentally I hope they get the support they need after being a witness to an appalling act of evil.

Billy86 · 12-06-2016 07:53PM

Severard wrote: »

The majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by Muslims. Just in 2016 alone the numbers speak for themselves [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January%E2%80%93June_2016

Actually while in the US, Muslims are over represented at 6% of all terrorist acts since (if I recall) 1980 despite making up just 1% of the population the reverse is true in Europe with them making up 6% of the population and contributing to less than 2% (might have been less than 1%) of terrorist attacks.

But all of that is irrelevant to the point you made that I was addressing, you wanted to claim that the entire religion of Islam is inherently bad/wrong and not just the extremists, specifically because of what the extremists do. For me, there is a very clear flaw in that argument which should be apparent in reading that sentence, but if you wish to still subscribe to it then you must apply that to more or less all major organised religions (any religion that someone has declared a terrorist act in the name of) - including Christians, Jews and Buddhists.

RDM_83 again · 12-06-2016 07:58PM

Billy86 wrote: »

When was the last time you organised a rally to condemn the Lords Resistance Army & co? Assuming you are a Christian, and if you are not then what about your Christian friends? You don't seem too bothered about that, though?

How big is the LRA these days? few hundred at most right? Are they even technically Christian, their leader is described as a prophet. From a quick browse of the wikipedia page it appears that nobody is actually sure what the LRA is.
I'm not saying Sunni Muslims should have to apologize for ISIS but there is a lot more shared background between them than a Roman Catholic and the LRA.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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