Dermot, tell ComReg to cut the crap

spongebob

Lookit Ardmore.

Would you agree that €ircon, our own National Denial of Service Conspiracy are more deserving of being bitched at/about than poor ScepticOne

ScepticOne is constrained from letting fly with all Barrels by the fact that he is on the Committee, otherwise ya might have had to duck by now.

Criticism where criticism is due .....by all means

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
As they were (are) with ADSL. What's your point?

Look, make up your mind - either demand will impact pricing, or it won't. Nobody is getting FRIACO without Eircoms involvment, and Eircoms wholesale price will be based on their most pessimistic prjections of uptake (so that anything in excess of those projections will just be cream).

Eircom's arguments to date have been about not having enough capacity to meet demand, so I don't think they will have grounds on this count. As to the question of whether this demand for capacity will be met by a small number of heavy users or a large number of light users, this is not down to Eircom but rather those selling the service (which may also include Eircom).

MDR

I have monitored this thread for quite a while, and sought not contribute to it, as last two committee members defended a position on the same thread, we were accused of 'ganging up on people'.

However as I suspect that Xian is busy elsewhere, I will attempt to explain.

between Ireland's two most powerful pressure groups in this area; and critically in my opinion, we're seeing an apparent difference of opinion between the membership or IrelandOffline and the leadership of IrelandOffline

With all due respect to those who have raised issue with the Committee's stance on this matter, as I have said before unless you do a members poll on an issue you can't claim to know how the membership feels about anything.

in the political arena which IrelandOffline is trying to subsume itself into

We have always moved with political circles, we are after all lobby group, however I suspect you believe we are trying to become a political party ?

And what strikes me as oddest about this whole thing is that Muck and Peter get it, and IrelandOffline doesn't.

As a group, this is only the way I percieve us, playing political games only has limited value. Sure I see your point Adam, to be honest setting the ultra low price wholesale is ESAT BT's and Nevada Telecom's bag, setting the ultra high price is Eircom's.

Ireland Offline is a consumer lobby group, we really shouldn't care less what the wholesale price is, so long as the price offered to the end consumers is reasonable.

I suspect that Muck and ET are urging for a very low priced FRIACO to attempt to repair some of the damage done to our economy by lack of a product over the last few years. I see where they are coming from, however it IOFFL had come out and suggested an ultra low price, we risk writing ourselves as bunch of unrealistic moaners and alienating ourselves from govt. and the telcos.

The alternative would have been not to suggest a retail price at all, however I feel this would have been folly too. We need to make sure that the Press/Public knew what was reasonable money to pay for this service.

I believe what we more or less did, was to take the results of the members survey, use the average price we got from that, which was about €30 euro and use that figure. This is what the members told us they are prepared to pay . And all we did was to say if the telcos charge anymore than this to the end consumer ... nobody is gonna buy it.

I don't think the stance Muck/ET have been taking is incompible with the one take by the IOFFL committee.

Forgive me if i have further confused things, I did not have time to read this thread again in its entirety.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Muck
ScepticOne is constrained from letting fly with all Barrels by the fact that he is on the Committee, otherwise ya might have had to duck by now.

No, I left the committee a while back.

parasite

I believe what we more or less did, was to take the results of the members survey, use the average price we got from that, which was about €30 euro and use that figure. This is what the members told us they are prepared to pay .

with all due respect, wouldn't it haven been more beneficial to poll households who, at the moment are priced out, a general aim is to
encourage more widespread use, is it not ? 30 yoyo's is a lot of money for some households to avail of umm ... e-government facilities etc ...
of course you're members are probably willing to pay more, going on the not particularly wild assumption that the majority are "heavy" users

spongebob

Originally posted by MDR
I don't think the stance Muck/ET have been taking is incompàtible with the one take by the IOFFL committee.

No. Absolutely not.

The Corollary of course is that a non-answer from the Committee doesn't mean they either

1. Haven't noticed
2. Don't care

either.

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
There is another matter here: IrelandOffline should certainly be concerning itself with retail pricing, and it should certainly be waxing lyrical to the press about ideal retail pricing, but when they're talking to the Government they should be talking about wholesale pricing and wholesale pricing only, because that's the only place the Government can tackle this effectively. If you come at it from the retail angle with the Government, they will be accused of price fixing and it will start a war. The current Government can not and will not get into that area.

I agree that the wholesale element is the one that should be emphasised at government level.

If the wholesale price is too high, then competition won't appear and flat rate won't result. The other worrying thing is that only a minority of exchanges will be available for FRIACO initially. The requirement to connect at primary rather than tandem level will further restrict competition.

MDR

The requirement to connect at primary rather than tandem level will further restrict competition.

yeah I am worried about this too,
how did UK ISP manage it,
I thought tandem level FRIACO was introduced there last year ?

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
Would you agree that €ircon, our own National Denial of Service Conspiracy are more deserving of being bitched at/about than poor ScepticOne

Okay, so anyone can rattle off any sort of ould crap here, without expecting anyone to take issue, because we all know that Eircom is worse? Sorry, I don't buy that.

ScepticOnes arguments just don't hold water, and his constant reference to the Bristish market are simply irrelevant - the Irish telecommunications market has never simply mirrored the British market (mobile phones, cable TV, local and international call pricing). If he was actually trying to use such a comparison to prove a point, it would be one thing, but he's not even doing that, he's simply speculating.

ScepticOne is constrained from letting fly with all Barrels by the fact that he is on the Committee, otherwise ya might have had to duck by now.

The fact that you would even find such a "threat" acceptable tells me a lot about Ireland Offline.

MDR

with all due respect, wouldn't it haven been more beneficial to poll households who, at the moment are priced out,

€30 is alot of money to many households I relise.Thats fair enough ... the MRBI statistics which was a poll of households talk similar money.

The product will allow householders to grow their internet usage with the concern of huge phone bills, many will find it attactive. in the UK, initally similar was charged for FRIACO and many signed up ... I hope in Ireland as has happened in the UK, overtime the price will come down, but for this inital offering €30 has got to be the upper limit.

The Corollary of course is that a non-answer from the Committee doesn't mean they either

Getting a wee bit confuddled now, if I amn't good enough for you , I suggest you mail Dave. Can I just confirm the point you are looking for answer to ...

You feel that €24 is a more realistic price upper limit for FRIACO, given that we are paying over the odds on our basic line rental. If I have got this right, I will raise it at the next committee meeting on your behalf.

MDR

The requirement to connect at primary rather than tandem level will further restrict competition.

yeah I am worried about this too,
how did UK ISP manage it,
I thought tandem level FRIACO was introduced there last year ?

spongebob

Originally posted by MDR

You feel that €24 is a more realistic price upper limit for FRIACO, given that we are paying over the odds on our basic line rental. If I have got this right, I will raise it at the next committee meeting on your behalf.

Yah !

Linkage between exceptional Irish line rental (esp vis a vis Finland and Sweden ) and the infamous 'cost stack'. Comreg have given €ircon too much ground on this issue already. Ironically, the next 2 most expensive countries DROPPED their line rental charges in the past year, €ircon are the only ones who keep on rising.

Eircom first noticed long duration local traffic connected with the Internet as far back as 1994 . They are not new to this concept.

IOL had started up in Furbo County Galway ..........

M

spongebob

Originally posted by Ardmore
The fact that you would even find such a "threat" acceptable tells me a lot about Ireland Offline.

Make a convicncing case of your own Ardmore rather than snapping at the ankles of others.

You seem to have some vague idea of the UK telecoms industry......... from whose activities you will no doubt derive some salient lessons from which we will all benefit once you actually post them in here.

G'wan so!

MDR

*looks up salient in the dictionary*

reading Mucks posts improve my vocabulary no end ...

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
ScepticOnes arguments just don't hold water, and his constant reference to the Bristish market are simply irrelevant - the Irish telecommunications market has never simply mirrored the British market (mobile phones, cable TV, local and international call pricing). If he was actually trying to use such a comparison to prove a point, it would be one thing, but he's not even doing that, he's simply speculating.

I'm sorry you think that. I probably did not express them well enough. My points were:

1. Flat-rate is valueable in its own right.
2. If the 24h version comes out at, say, 30 euros and this is deemed too expensive for casual users then the service can be split into two to cater to different market segments.
3. ADSL is not necessarily going to be 4 times FRIACO, there are other considerations.

In supporting these, I have used comparisons with other countries. These comparisons won't be perfect because no two markets are the same. In my view it is no worse than using bitstream in Ireland to speculate that FRIACO will also be high. There are aspects of this that are valid as well as vast differences between the two services.

dahamsta

we were accused of 'ganging up on people'

You never fail to put me on offense MDR.

(Just in case: It was supposed to be constructive criticism. Just because I'm passionate when I type doesn't mean I'm recriminating.)

as I have said before unless you do a members poll on an issue you can't claim to know how the membership feels about anything.

And as I've said before, I think you can guage membership feeling from these forums pretty well. Certainly, IrelandOffline has to represent the quiet masses, but when some members feel so strongly about an issue that they come here and actively engage with the community, well, I think we should give a little more weight to their arguments. Think about it: they're lobbying you to lobby politicians; who do you think politicians listen more closely to, the quiet masses or the people who stand up and say their piece? We should encourage people to stand up and fight for themselves, particularly before the fact. How do you do that? Well, you have a mailing list. Boards.ie has a polling mechanism...

I suspect you believe we are trying to become a political party ? ;D

I've heard of single issue candidates, but single issue parties?

Sure I see your point Adam, to be honest setting the ultra low price wholesale is ESAT BT's and Nevada Telecom's bag, setting the ultra high price is Eircom's.

True. Look at the price Esat is muttering about in the press.

Ireland Offline is a consumer lobby group, we really shouldn't care less what the wholesale price is, so long as the price offered to the end consumers is reasonable.

This is true, and I see your point here too, but of course you have to care about the wholesale price whether you like it or not, because that will drive the retail price. Lobbying for a retail price isn't realistic, because politically Dermot Ahern can't be seen to be responding to that. Wholesale he can, because the has the legislation and the agencies to back him up. More importantly, if he tries to set retail pricing he'll have a whole host of enemies out for his blood (Eircom, Esat, Nevada, etc); whereas at the wholesale level he only has Eircom to contend with.

I hope you're seeing the point I'm trying to make here (again): Lobbying for a retail price is all well and good at the media level, but at Governmental level it's just a waste of time and energy. Much better to expend that energy lobbying for something that Ahern can actually respond to.

I suspect that Muck and ET are urging for a very low priced FRIACO to attempt to repair some of the damage done to our economy by lack of a product over the last few years.

Absolutely. And they're right...

I see where they are coming from, however it IOFFL had come out and suggested an ultra low price, we risk writing ourselves as bunch of unrealistic moaners and alienating ourselves from govt. and the telcos.

...and so are you. Which is another reason to concentrate on wholesale pricing. Because no matter what you do at retail level, you'll be written off: either by the the government and the telcos - and possibly even the media - for the reasons mentioned above; or by the membership - and possibly even the press again - for being weak and giving in too easily.

The alternative would have been not to suggest a retail price at all, however I feel this would have been folly too. We need to make sure that the Press/Public knew what was reasonable money to pay for this service.

I'm not sure if it was you or Xian that drew attention to this originally (remember the thread about the word "cap"?) but having thought about it I reckon it would have been better if IrelandOffline hadn't said anything at all. The whole "affordable" thing was a trap - a benign one I think - that IrelandOffline fell into. It's unfortunate - and blameless - but I think it can be recovered from as long as IrelandOffline swerves away from it in future.

I believe what we more or less did, was to take the results of the members survey, use the average price we got from that, which was about €30 euro and use that figure.

Ok, I accept that, but wasn't that a good while back? Importantly, wasn't it after NoLimits was discontinued and the current off-peak unmetered packages appeared? As I hinted above, maybe it's time for a new survey?

I don't think the stance Muck/ET have been taking is incompible with the one take by the IOFFL committee.

Well, Muck doesn't seem to think so, but there's a huge difference between the price projections.

Still trying to be constructive!

adam

BigEejit

Dahamsta is spot on ...

When thinking about a price for flat rate how about asking the majority of people (which is unfortunately NOT the IOFFL membership because the majority of them are heavy users and 30 euros sounds brilliant to them) ... Its sounds flippin expensive to me :mad: , how about thinking about the low end users (who are by far the majority of internet users) who also dont want to be lining eircons pockets ... dont tell me "they dont have to use it if they dont want to or its too expensive" ..

dahamsta

Oops a daisy, I left out a sentence...

True. Look at the price Esat is muttering about in the press. ...

... If that's ultra-high, we're in big trouble.

adam

parasite

dahamsta is spot on ...

When thinking about a price for flat rate how about asking the majority of people (which is unfortunately NOT the IOFFL membership because the majority of them are heavy users and 30 euros sounds brilliant to them) ... Its sounds flippin expensive to me

umm didn't i say that earlier
bah

pete

€30 a month would be considered "expensive"?

I went to the movies in the savoy last thursday night - 2 tickets, 1 x bucket of popcorn, 2x500ml bottles of coke - 3 hours entertainment = €23

Tonight, i bought 2 take-out 12" pizzas, some spicy potato wedges and a can of coke in a russian/italian pizzeria in dorset street - 15 minutes eating = €26

I bought 3 magazines last month - €9 + €7 + €7 = €23


yeah a bit off topic i know....

Scottish

Everything is expensive, but it needn't be.

If you accept these high charges (for telecoms, food etc) as acceptable, then you agree with the Eircom biddy, who called me to ask why I had left Eircom for UTV. When I went through all the reasons (mainly economic) she said to me "Well, it is Ireland. Everything here is expensive".

Where, I often wonder, are the consumer protection bodies? I also noticed today that the UK regulator is demanding that mobile gateway prices are halved in the UK. Wouldn't see that here, even though Irelands mobile phone companies are the most profitable per customer in Europe.

The Irish government are sucking the corporate fat one. Excuse my language.

Damian

No need to apologise when you are abolutely right about those FF corporate c**ksuckers!

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by Scottish
"Well, it is Ireland. Everything here is expensive".

I remember reading that. I would have asked her that if that is the case then why are you so cheap.

€30 considering the state that our internet access has been degraded to is a tad expensive. But I understand perfectly IOFFLs position on this. They had to come ouy with a "realistic" (in terms of this country anyway) price that allows them to be firstly taken seriously as a lobby group and secondly sets a precedent for a FRAICO price that if €ircon surpasses they will be exposed to the general masses as the unbelievable con artists they truly are.
As far as broadband goes, well, not stating the obvious but Eircon are a greedy,monopolisitic, incompetent telco whose sole aim is protection of their inflated profits. Its been a battle to even achieve FRIACO. How long will it be before €ircon, like BT, launch a stg £20 million campaign with Hollywood-esque style effects to entice people to susbcribe to, by our standards, dirt cheap broadband. Not holding my breath.

Scottish

I actually think that €30 retail might be a good starting point - smaller competitors like UTV might come in under that just to get access to the more lucrative voice market, using it as a loss leader.

There isn't really much point in investing hope in EsatBT. I mean, this is BT, who understand the "pain" of the incumbant all too well. They carried on like this in the UK up until recently and would have no problems in establishing a cosy Duopoly. They'll make all the right noises at times, but they will know exaclty how lucrative a double act could be. We have a double act in the mobile market (I don't really count Meteor - has anyone even rung an 085 number?) and look what has resulted through the incredibly weak "regulation" - a cosy, highly profitable duopoly. Two free market choices is much worse than one public operatior.

The government here seem to be of the opinion that only large plcs are worth bothering about. Truth is that the consumer is keeping this economy going.

Time for us all to stop buying over priced crap, if we can avoid it!

pork99

Originally posted by Scottish
Everything is expensive, but it needn't be.

Where, I often wonder, are the consumer protection bodies? I also noticed today that the UK regulator is demanding that mobile gateway prices are halved in the UK. Wouldn't see that here, even though Irelands mobile phone companies are the most profitable per customer in Europe.

The Irish government are sucking the corporate fat one. Excuse my language.

Yes the key argument Oftel are using is that the current prices are not, please pay attention here CumRag, IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST

Have you ever heard of this concept CumRag? The public are paying you after all! Not the Eircom interest or the NTL interest or the Fiamnna Fail interest but THE PUBLIC I.E. THE MUGS WHO ARE PAYING YOUR WAGES

Did this search on Google earlier - for the phrase "public interest" on ComReg.ie - the result;

Your search - "public interest" site:comreg.ie - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
- Try fewer keywords.

Scottish

Damn right - it seems like none of the so called regulation bodies here have any impact whatsoever. It all just seems so bloody cosy - theres no concept that people might be getting shafted, never mind what its doing to the economy.

This is one area, among many, that the goverment could actually make strides to try and reduce inflation - control the prices that you have an influence over, stop letting corporations ride everyone of us. The government has already made sure that the burden of taxation is on the individual (corporation - 12%, individual somewhere over 50% in total), don't let the feckers shaft us with ever higher prices for everything, especially those things which you are supposed to be able to exert some control through so called regulators. these feckers make enough money, and give nothing back to the community that they are making it all from.

BTW pork, love that signature at the bottom. The day Thatcher dies, I'll be getting pissed drunk and spitting on her memory - as my mother used to say "that woman wont die in her bed"

pork99

Originally posted by Scottish
BTW pork, love that signature at the bottom. The day Thatcher dies, I'll be getting pissed drunk and spitting on her memory - as my mother used to say "that woman wont die in her bed"

I'm quoting one of your fellow countrymen there Scottish, (you are Scottish, Scottish?); Armando Ianucci - Italian name I know - very funny guy anyway

Thatcher always gave me the creeps

It all just seems so bloody cosy - theres no concept that people might be getting shafted, never mind what its doing to the economy.

Yes the cosyness between CumRag and Eircom, Esat, O2, Vodafone, NTL etc looks a bit suspicious to me. It would be worth keeping an eye on the future careers of senior CumRag executives. It will be interesting to see how many get plum jobs in the aforementioned corporations after they have finished in CumRag

seamus

To be fair lads, ComReg have barely existed a month (or is it two?), and in that time we've seen more accomplished than anything the ODTR did since IOFFL was started. Let's give them a chance, but keep the pressure up......

I have to agree with IOFFL's initial price target for retail FRIACO. €30 isn't overly cheap to me either, but it's about as much in one month, as I would spend on lunches in just a week. IOFFL have gained a lot of ground in recent months/weeks in being taken as a serious force in the market, to come out and say 'We want FRIACO for €12/month - No more", would seriously jeopardise our position.

€30 sounds reasonable to me, and going by surveys, sounds reasonable to most people, and most importantly, sounds reasonable to the OLOs. It's from this figure that market forces - demand/supply and competition - can force it downwards to a more EU-relative figure.

That's just my 2c anyway.

pork99

Originally posted by seamus
To be fair lads, ComReg have barely existed a month (or is it two?), and in that time we've seen more accomplished than anything the ODTR did since IOFFL was started. Let's give them a chance, but keep the pressure up......

I have to agree with IOFFL's initial price target for retail FRIACO. €30 isn't overly cheap to me either, but it's about as much in one month, as I would spend on lunches in just a week. IOFFL have gained a lot of ground in recent months/weeks in being taken as a serious force in the market, to come out and say 'We want FRIACO for €12/month - No more", would seriously jeopardise our position.

€30 sounds reasonable to me, and going by surveys, sounds reasonable to most people, and most importantly, sounds reasonable to the OLOs. It's from this figure that market forces - demand/supply and competition - can force it downwards to a more EU-relative figure.

That's just my 2c anyway.

CumRag may only have been around a couple of months but it seems to me to be a re-branded ODTR with much the same people only sitting in different seats

30 eur pm for FRIACO is just a bit overpriced - if you apply the Oftel "public interest" criteria 20 eur pm would be more realistic

In fact I'm afraid that at 30 eur pm the FRIACO were're getting will be typical of the "too little too late" style solutions we get here

De Rebel

Originally posted by pete
€30 a month would be considered "expensive"?

Yes, it would.

Perhaps not by you or me or the other "earners" who hang out here. I'd happily pay it, and a lot more too, and still make significant savings on my present bill. And for a long time I would have said exactly the same thing: "€30 per month?; not a bother!".

But there is a whole other world out there. Think about the housebound, the handicapped, the carers and homemakers, students, pensioners, those living alone and those in rural isolation and all the others whose lives could be enriched and made productive by affordable flat access to the Internet. These are the people who really stand to benefit. Through no fault of their own, many of these groups have very limited incomes. For some of these groups €30 per month would represent up to 10% of disposable income. Are they any less entitled to be connected in this wired world? Put yourself in the position of a family of two parents and three teenagers existing on the average industrial wage. You think there is €30 per month rattling around spare in that household?
"The €30 a month would be grand" stance helps perpetuate the myth that the internet is for some affluent elite group. My radical change of heart on the subject came about when I read this piece. Darren's eloquent and dignified statement of the position is the most powerful argument I have heard in relation to flat rate pricing. The words "For these two hours of heaven each night ...." had a huge impact on me and really underline the importance of really truly affordable flat rate.

Pete I am not getting at you here, but you raise a very important question. Its easy for those of us who can afford it to say "€30 per month?; not a bother!” or "Anything would be better than the present rip off" But that is not the point. IOFFL must use it considerable influence and take a stand on behalf of the entire community.

There are people out there for whom €30 a month is well into unaffordable territory. They also have entitlements.