Dermot, tell ComReg to cut the crap

Fergus

It just seems we keep getting back to the same issue.

Eircon will not provide wholesale access to anything at cost-oriented prices. FRIACO in whatever form will most likely suffer the same fate. Either:

(a) ConReg force real cost-oriented prices, so real competition can take place on the eircon network. I doubt they are up to the task.

or

(b) A competitor uses LLU and a large-scale rollout of alternative infrastructure to circumvent Eircon. But no-one seems to have the stomach for that sort of investment.


IIRC, the LLU price was eventually set at the EU average and the proposed price from eircon was disregarded. Why didn't / couldn't this happen for bitstream, and the forthcoming FRIACO?

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
The important thing is that the FRIACO price is strictly cost-oriented (preferably on the basis of an efficient European operator). If Eircom get away with charging what they like (as you say) then, of course, they will charge a lot and this will be passed on.

The price for Eircoms wholesale bitstream service was set under exactly the same conditions as the price for Fridaco (cost to an efficient operator).

Eircom managed to get a wholesale price that is multiples of the retail price in neighbouring countries. As far as I know, their supporting arguments were not released as they contain "sensitive commercial information".

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
The price for Eircoms wholesale bitstream service was set under exactly the same conditions as the price for Fridaco (cost to an efficient operator).

Eircom managed to get a wholesale price that is multiples of the retail price in neighbouring countries. As far as I know, their supporting arguments were not released as they contain "sensitive commercial information".

I agree that if this were to happen, then FRIACO would be a disaster. Eircom probably justified their price on the basis of a low volume business service. Whatever fixed costs associated with enabling an exchange would then be allocated to fewer individual services sold and therefore the cost per service would be high. These arguments would not work with FRIACO which is a capacity based service.

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I agree that if this were to happen, then FRIACO would be a disaster. Eircom probably justified their price on the basis of a low volume business service. Whatever fixed costs associated with enabling an exchange would then be allocated to fewer individual services sold and therefore the cost per service would be high. These arguments would not work with FRIACO which is a capacity based service.

Which brings me back to the idea that Eircom will charge 3 to 4 times for DSL over flat rate..

SkepticOne

Well, if anyone thinks we're going to get 24/7 flat rate for 10 euros...

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Well, if anyone thinks we're going to get 24/7 flat rate for 10 euros...

I've said all along that the expected (I'm kind of sure EsatBT mentioned that number) price for [edit]I should have typed flat rate here :rolleyes: [/edit] was in or around 30 euros ...

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I dunno, people seemed fairly pleased when UTVip came out with their 27 euro service (off-peak only).

If you've paid multibles of that you are "pleased" of course - but that is not the point.

Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities.

We need to wake up seriously to the situation of 2003. Look closer at Belgium:

From the Belgacom website:
Belgacom will now be able to provide certain customers residing more than five kilometers from a telephone exchange with an ADSL connection, providing that the intensity of the ADSL signal transmitted on their telephone line is sufficient. A new method of measurement makes it possible to measure signal intensity very precisely.
Thanks to this technique, up to 93% of the population in Belgium can have ADSL access (compared to 90% last year.)

From 03/01/03 till 31/01/03: Sales at Belgacom!
ADSL Installation Pack + Asus USB modem: EUR 29.75


ADSL with 3Mbits downstream for 39 euros a month ( you pay more if you don't want it to be capped at 15 gigs) from the incumbent. Overall bb coverage when the cableproviders are included is 97 percent.

Belgiums very expensive dial-up is simply irrelevant - sorry for the 3 percent outside bb reach - as it is only used by users who don't use the net a lot and are better off with a metered dial-up. And I even doubt that their dial-up access is that expensive.

Peter

Dustaz

Attn Xian :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=508202#post508202


I HATE to say i told you so

(for the record, afair i said that anyone here seeing those prices would hit the roof, and lo and behold...)


To everyone else.

I havent seen a price comparison along the lines of the adsl one for Flat Rate connections. Perhaps there is one?

I know for a fact that flat rate is NOWHERE near €10 per month in the UK and theyve had it for a good few years there. So im afraid realistically, its a case of 'tough'

SkepticOne

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
From the Belgacom website:
Belgacom will now be able to provide certain customers residing more than five kilometers from a telephone exchange with an ADSL connection, providing that the intensity of the ADSL signal transmitted on their telephone line is sufficient. A new method of measurement makes it possible to measure signal intensity very precisely.
Thanks to this technique, up to 93% of the population in Belgium can have ADSL access (compared to 90% last year.)

As I said before, if I thought this (30 euro ADSL) was going to happen here soon, then I would not be arguing for FRIACO strongly.

Apart from this I would never argue that 30 euro flat-rate 24/7 would be good value compared to what is on offer in Belgium and other countries in the form of broadband. The problem is that right now, you have to move to emmigrate to get it. That is the only problem. Otherwise it is great.

Affordable broadband sould still be part of IOFFL's campaign, but we should not lose sight of what is achievable in the short run. That is why I disagree with you that FRIACO is a bad thing. If it improves internet access in some way, then I'm in favour of it. Obviously, the higher priced it is, the less effect it will have on Eircom lowering their ADSL price in isolation (10 euros would be great), but that is to view flat rate purely in terms of a stepping stone to broadband.

The main value of it will be getting more ordinary people on-line and aware of the uses of the internet.

dieselfreak

Peter has done extensive research on this by the sounds of it...

The simple facts remain.... Eircom are happy getting the extorsionate rates from Irish comsumer, why should they invest the share holders cash (whom are owed big time after another fiasco)

When they can milk the grants that they are getting from the government (Irish Consumer yet another hit)

then simply produce the odd report that suggests that Ireland is a market unlike an other on the planet, where people don't want access to the Internet, therfore when they do its so unusual that its fine for that user to pay through the nose for it, cuz it's uneconomical to provide it at a low cost for the amount of users in that area.

The MORONS that are running the show in government probably wouldn't know a PC if it flew in threw thier front window, then get a tech head to write a report explaining whats coming down the line when, the 1500 euro fine scares the pants off Eircom "forcing" them to implement the technology thats already out of date.

Face it guys... Its gonna take some RADICAL moves in legislation (assuming all parties can avoid brown envelope temptation) to make a sigificant change in the situation here in RIP OFF IRELAND..

So roll on 2010 when we have 512K/sec/uncapped/month for €50

Dawg

I know for a fact that flat rate is NOWHERE near €10 per month in the UK and theyve had it for a good few years there. So im afraid realistically, its a case of 'tough'

Sorry but your off the mark a bit there.

Uk packages from BTOW:

BT Anytime: £15.99 per month, 10 mail addresses (POP3 & web based), 50MB webspace, 150 hours per month, peak/off-peak doesn't matter.

BT Surftime: £6.99 per month, 5 mail addressed (POP3 & web based), 10MB webspace, 120 hours per month. Connect at off-peak times - connection during peak hours is to the Pay-As-You-Go number

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Dawg
Sorry but your off the mark a bit there.

Uk packages from BTOW:

BT Anytime: £15.99 per month, 10 mail addresses (POP3 & web based), 50MB webspace, 150 hours per month, peak/off-peak doesn't matter.

This is 24 euros.

BT Surftime: £6.99 per month, 5 mail addressed (POP3 & web based), 10MB webspace, 120 hours per month. Connect at off-peak times - connection during peak hours is to the Pay-As-You-Go number

This is 10.99 euros. I think most of the discussion was about the 24/7 price.

SkepticOne

Probably a better example is Freeserve.

Anytime: 21 euros.

Hometime: 9 euros.

It also shows that off-peak packages should be somewhat cheaper than 24 hour rates. I think Ardmore was disputing this.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Probably a better example is Freeserve.
Anytime: 21 euros.
Hometime: 9 euros.

As far as I remember Freeserve do not restrict your usage hours.

For people in the UK who are outside a dsl enabled area - and there are plenty - this is a welcome solution. (Anybody else can now get ADSL for exactly that same price)

The 9 euro off-peak offer will invite newcomers to the net. My neighbours would not mind trying that one.

So, any reason why we should be talking about 30 euros - and then of course get a 34.99 euro package?

Sure there is no rule that says: Irish price = UK price + 50 percent.

Peter

Xian

1. This is Ireland: not the UK, not the US and definitely not cloudcuckooland.

Pragmatism achieves more than idealism. We have to evaluate advances in internet connectivity in Ireland based on existing services here, not elsewhere, not on what "should be".

2. Flat rate has not yet been introduced.

It is not "in the bag". Not by a long shot. Talk about it's usefulness at this stage is counter-productive. Its importance is agreed upon. This discussion is closed.

3. A flat rate price has not been set

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30. Similar services in the UK are €25. It was reasonable for us to set the higher price as the bounds of affordability in our response to Minister Ahern. If you expected it to be less you were misinformed.

4. Flat rate will not be mandated at below-cost.

This would be unreasonable, illegal and therefore actionable.

Finally, thank you Dustaz for resurrecting that thread. At the end of it I pointed out that Belgium, where ADSL is available at less than €30 and flat rate is not available, has as low an internet penetration rate as Ireland. I imagine it is because the lack of the innovative internet access services that FRIACO makes possible to get casual users to spend longer online prevents the development of a country's active internet population.

Dawg

With either one your getting an off-peak service for under €11. The average user prolly wont have anything so important to do that it cant wait till after 6.

From €ircon's history they'll prolly be looking for 25-30 yoyos for this type of service and far as I know nothings for sure that they will even have an all day offering.

Like peter has said these services should only be there for ppl who cant avail of BB access or for enticing more ppl who would normally never use to internet to do so. If they like what they see they should have an affordable BB package available to move up to from there.

For heavy users here its welcome because we're currently paying mindnumbing prices for a crap service. Other than that its of no use to anyone except casual users.

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30

For a 24/7 connection with a monthly limit not easily reached thats acceptable, but only as a stop gap until they pull their fingers out with the bb options. Any less a service for that price is just another rip-off.

Bring on BB.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Dawg
With either one your getting an off-peak service for under €11. The average user prolly wont have anything so important to do that it cant wait till after 6.

Yes, and most people will be working or at school/college during the day.

From €ircon's history they'll prolly be looking for 25-30 yoyos for this type of service and far as I know nothings for sure that they will even have an all day offering.

If FRIACO is done correctly, then you won't be forced to get your ISP services from Eircom (big if, of course), there will be a choice. They can charge what they want if the don't want the busines.

Like peter has said these services should only be there for ppl who cant avail of BB access or for enticing more ppl who would normally never use to internet to do so. If they like what they see they should have an affordable BB package available to move up to from there.

I agree with this. In Britain 50% of users use flat-rate dial up. Market research done in Ireland suggests that large numbers of users (including those not currently on the net will use a flat rate product if it is priced correctly.

For heavy users its welcome because we're currently paying mindnumbing prices for a crap service. Other than that its of no use to anyone except casual users.

I agree that both heavy and casual users will welcome it.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Xian
is definitely not cloudcuckooland... not on what "should be".
Talk about it's usefulness at this stage is counter-productive...This discussion is closed...If you expected it to be less you were misinformed...Flat rate will not be mandated at below-cost...unreasonable, illegal and therefore actionable...it is because the lack of the innovative internet access services that FRIACO makes possible

Those politbureau style undertones make me somewhat uncomfortable, but perhaps that's only me.

Belgium's Internet penetration rates ( above 35 percent) are as low as Ireland's for one reason only: They are measured correctly, taking the data about active internet user numbers directly from the providers.
Belgiums Broadband rollout is remarkable.


Peter

dahamsta

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30. Similar services in the UK are €25.

No they're not Xian. BT's service is, yes, but they're the incumbent and they can charge what they like because people will sign up with them whether or which; and the same will go for Eircom over here. We shouldn't concentrate on them though, we should concentrate on the OLO's, and getting a fair deal for them.

I think the average retail price should be targetted to about €20-€25 myself, and that €25 should be an absolute maximum. On top of that, there should be full price and Eircom cost reviews every six months, and new prices mandated if the market refuses to compete.

And although we certainly shouldn't force Eircom to sell below cost, we should also not sit back and let them come up with Toytown costs, as they did with ADSL. That was just lies, and the ODTR let them get away with it. And they KNOW they did.

adam

vinnyfitz

In my view the Minister and Comreg should insist the price is no higher than €35 including VAT.

We can hope that competition will, in due course, drive it significantly lower.

If anyone can point me to a regulatory decision in any other country obliging carriers to offer FRIACO at less than € 30 I would be very interested.

spongebob

I must insist that the FRIACO price is set a lot lower than Vinny Fitz' price point.

Irish Analogue Line Rental €19.60 a month including VAT is already the most expensive in Europe. Comreg are responsible for letting them away with this farrago. Our line rental is some 140% of the EU Median.

Crudely it means thet we exceed our peers by €6 including VAT.

As this €6 is payable whether we use the Internet or not, and as it constitutes a subsidy paid by the state in 12.5% of cases (pensioners get free line rental paid by the Government) I would not allow €ircon to double count or treble count it in the 'cost stack' .

I strongly disagree with the principle that the department of Social Welfare is responsible for overmanning or (uber-biddying) in €ircon and that the profits on this fiasco are being moved offshore to New York.

As the figure of €30 has been punted consistently as a 'not more than' figure I propose the following calculation mechanism.

€30 (Max Fair Price)

(less)

€6 (Preloaded Cost Stack Element including Dept of Social Welfare subsidy)

=

€24

Thats the highest allowable price for FRIACO , incl VAT, in order to leave some room for (fat) margin shrinkage for ADSL ......down to €49 or so, uncapped 256k by the end of the year.

The incumbent carriers in Finland and Sweden, countries with LESS THAN 30% of our population density, can manage their 'cost stack' to produce line rental charges which are BELOW the European Median.

M

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
Irish Analogue Line Rental €19.60 a month including VAT is already the most expensive in Europe. ... as it constitutes a subsidy paid by the state in 12.5% of cases (pensioners get free line rental paid by the Government)

An interesting thought - I wonder would it be possible for the Government to put those lines that it's paying the line rental for out to tender?

It's be a massive incentive for other OLOs to start implementing LLU (I don't know the details, but I imagine it must be cheaper to unbundle 1000 lines in a single exchange than 10 or 20).

spongebob

block tender out 200,000 lines out of 1.6 million.

Good one Ardmore

It should be subject to annual tender all right, I am sure that other carriers could manage the 'cost stack' better than those gobdaws in €ircon ! Have you told the Comptroller and Auditor Generals office yet?

M

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Probably a better example is Freeserve.

Anytime: 21 euros.

Hometime: 9 euros.

According to the Freeserve website, to get "Hometime" at 9 euro, "You will need an appropriate BT upgrade package - from an additional £6 per month". That takes it to €18.

It also shows that off-peak packages should be somewhat cheaper than 24 hour rates. I think Ardmore was disputing this.

I don't dispute that businesses paying a couple of hundred a month for dialup access now would snap up a FRIACO package at €60, leaving plenty of scope for a profitable residential offering at €35. There's no dispute that the business market will bear a higher price than the residential market.

But I do dispute the notion that residential prices will be cheaper because the equipment would otherwise be lying idle at offpeak times, and they might as well flog it off cheap to the home user. FRIACO is going to require dedicated hardware, and without a tandem arrangement to spread the investment between city and suburban exchanges, it's quite likely that in some exchanges the off peak demand for the FRIACO infrastructure will actually be greater than the daytime demand.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Xian
I imagine it is because the lack of the innovative internet access services that FRIACO makes possible to get casual users to spend longer online prevents the development of a country's active internet population.

You guys need to get out more!

If you think for a moment that the "casual" user of the internet is going to sign up for a guaranteed bill of €35 a month, when they can get an hour a day online now for €22 with "pay as you go" services, you've got another think coming.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
You guys need to get out more!

If you think for a moment that the "casual" user of the internet is going to sign up for a guaranteed bill of €35 a month, when they can get an hour a day online now for €22 with "pay as you go" services, you've got another think coming.

Yes, most likely the casual user would go for an off peak package. In Britain, these appear to be about half the price of the 'anytime' products. Market research conducted in Ireland shows that there is considerable demand at this level.

dahamsta

<dahamsta has to look up farrago>

Irish Analogue Line Rental €19.60 a month including VAT is already the most expensive in Europe. Comreg are responsible for letting them away with this farrago. Our line rental is some 140% of the EU Median.

I did not know that. Good post Muck.

I'm seeing a problem here, and it's not that people disagree on price, because that will always happen. As a heavy Internet user, I'll save money no matter what happens, for the simple reason that it is absolutely impossible that retail flat-rate products will be more expensive than current ADSL offers, and ADSL would be cheaper for me than my current Internet costs[1]. But other people won't save at the price I can afford, and still others won't save at the prices being mooted here. Some just won't save at all, it will be more logical for them to stay on metered "free" accounts, but that's not a bad thing, because it's choice, and choice is good for competition.

No, the problem I see here is /who/ is disagreeing on price. We're seeing an argument here - a polite one, but an argument nonetheless - between Ireland's two most powerful pressure groups in this area; and critically in my opinion, we're seeing an apparent difference of opinion between the membership or IrelandOffline and the leadership of IrelandOffline. Now I say apparent because not everyone from the leadership of IrelandOffline posts here and the opinions being expressed could be those of the individuals involved. But I'd like to see this settled once and for all: Is the price point set by Dave the official position of IrelandOffline, and if so, how does that stack up against the opinions being expressed here?

Let me be clear about something: I see IrelandOffline's point about pricing. I realise that there's no point in being totally unrealistic in our own minds. I /know/ that there is no way in hell the pricing being put forward by Peter and by Muck will carry forward to the retail level. However, in the political arena which IrelandOffline is trying to subsume itself into, there is an enormous difference between what you believe, and what you say. A perfect example of that is the firefighters in the UK: They don't believe for a second that they're going to get what they asked for, but they had to ask for it. Because if they asked for what they actually want, they would have had to settle for far less than they actually deserve.

So by all means, set a figure you find acceptable in your heads. Feel free to post it here if you wish. But when you're talking to the media, and when you're talking to the Government, round down, way down. Because real politics isn't about ideals, it's about settlements, it's about the middle ground. It's about haggling. It's about you starting low and them starting high and working your way towards the middle ground. And what strikes me as oddest about this whole thing is that Muck and Peter get it, and IrelandOffline doesn't. Which group is it that meets and talks with politicians again?

There is another matter here: IrelandOffline should certainly be concerning itself with retail pricing, and it should certainly be waxing lyrical to the press about ideal retail pricing, but when they're talking to the Government they should be talking about wholesale pricing and wholesale pricing only, because that's the only place the Government can tackle this effectively. If you come at it from the retail angle with the Government, they will be accused of price fixing and it will start a war. The current Government can not and will not get into that area.

"No, no, no, no. It's not worth ten. You're supposed to argue, 'Ten for that? You must be mad!' Ohh, well. One born every minute."
-- Harry the Haggler, Life of Brian

adam

[1] And that's putting aside the advantages of always-on and broadband! In actual fact, Eircom's most expensive service would be cheaper for me. A pity, then, that I can't get ADSL. From anyone. Even though I live in a suburb in the second-biggest city in the country. Talk about Irish.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Yes, most likely the casual user would go for an off peak package. In Britain, these appear to be about half the price of the 'anytime' products. Market research conducted in Ireland shows that there is considerable demand at this level.

The demand isn't new, it has been there for years. The existence of demand for a service doesn't mean anything to Eircom. And the infrastructure in Britain (physical and regulatory) is fundamentally different to the infrsatructure in Ireland. Drawing conclusions based on the British experience is pointless. (For example, does anyone have any idea what the takeup of Esat's NetSmart packages has been like, nd how it compares to the market acceptance of such offerings in the UK?)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
The demand isn't new, it has been there for years. The existence of demand for a service doesn't mean anything to Eircom.

Eircom are simply required to supply the capacity at a cost oriented price to competing OLOs. Their opinion on demand is irrelavent. The existance of off-peak and 24hour products in Britain merely demonstrates that such pricing is possible. The companies in Ireland might decide to split the capacity differently, however I believe it would make more sense to maximise revenue from the different market segments.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Eircom are simply required to supply the capacity at a cost oriented price to competing OLOs.

As they were (are) with ADSL. What's your point?

Their opinion on demand is irrelavent.

Look, make up your mind - either demand will impact pricing, or it won't. Nobody is getting FRIACO without Eircoms involvment, and Eircoms wholesale price will be based on their most pessimistic prjections of uptake (so that anything in excess of those projections will just be cream).

The existance of off-peak and 24hour products in Britain merely demonstrates that such pricing is possible.

The fact that Belgium has 97% coverage for broadband demonstrates that it's possible. It's still entirely irrelavant to the situation in hand.

The companies in Ireland might decide to split the capacity differently, however I believe it would make more sense to maximise revenue from the different market segments.

Sure. Just like we've seen the ADSL market develop.