Dermot, tell ComReg to cut the crap

eircomtribunal

Our letter to Minister Dermot Ahern about ADSL pricing across Europe and more.

SkepticOne

I like the attached letter. It illustrates the link between jobs and broadband in very concrete terms. This is something that a lot of these reports coming out can't do.

Dustaz

That letter is outstanding.

I dont suppose theres any figures for commercial pullouts/collapses due to poor telecoms but that letter sums up what we all know can happen because of the duopoly.

Yet again, GG ET

parasite

i totally agree with the price of 10 yoyo's, i'm still baffled why ioffl said 30 was acceptable

pork99

I feel very sorry for Mr Farrell but I don't believe Ahern, Hanafin, Dept of Fish & Telephones, CumRag, Esat or least of all Eircom give a flying fornication about him and his company.

Its blindingly obvious that without people like him getting sucessful companies off the ground the economy is going down the toilet. But that only effects the mug punters like us. Ahern, Hanafin, Dept of Fish & Telephones, CumRag, Esat & Eircom are sitting pretty no matter what happens i.e. they are sponging off the taxpayer or have a safe duopoly. They are laughing at us.

I would love to see the lot of them busted to more appropriate positions for their abilities such as lavatory attendant, traffic light squegee-merchant or peep-show jizz mopper, yep thats about their level (perhaps I'm being unfair to lavatory attendants etc)

But look at the government. They are middle-aged hicks. To them high tech industry is something which magically appears after fellating some rich yanks. They're completely and utterly clueless. This is a country with seriously the wrong people in charge. (for a start I would give Dermot Ahern's job to eircomtribunal )

PiE

Whatever about Comreg etc, I love eircomtribunal.com

Another great article ;]

corkey

Great well done, like the letter the way it shows small companys
being screwed by the telcos here

pete

Originally posted by parasite
i totally agree with the price of 10 yoyo's, i'm still baffled why ioffl said 30 was acceptable

dammit i want it for free.

no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.


ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by pete
dammit i want it for free.

no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.


ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

€30 is acceptable...for Ireland that is. Anywhere else and it would most likely not be classed as a rip off for 56k. It just means we are a long, long way off €30/€40 for real 512kbps DSL like they have in those really advanced and industrial countries like ummm Estonia ehh, cough.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by pete
dammit i want it for free.
no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.
ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

From the user's point 10 euros is not cheap for dial-up access:
To compare with a 256 kbit/s broadband connection: you need to use four 64 ISDN channels, that's two ISDN lines at 60 euros and 40 euros for the flatrate fee for the four channels. You'll end up with a hundred euro bill for your not-always on connection. As a single modem user you'll probably only get a 40 kbit/s connection at most, a lot less in many cases, making the equation even more unfavourable. Your ISP will disconnect you every few hours automatically, playing havoc with file downloads and updates and a nice "fair use policy" will limit your "always"-on-time.

Don't forget that with dial-up your telephone line does not stay free as it does with DSL, so you have to take the line rental into account - with 19.60 euros we have the most expensive in Europe.

For most flatrate dial-up users worldwide the dial-up flat-rate charge would be at around 10euros. We should not always only look to the UK for comparison. In the UK flatrate dial-up costs from 20 euros.

The proposed (non-tandem) FRIACO model in Ireland, where the provider has to connect directly into each of the exchanges leads to very small costs for the incumbent; should really be covered by the line rental. The ISP side of things should be possible with 10 euros.

If the providers can only offer flatrate dial-up at high costs they'll attract mostly heavy users - and those are no good to them. They need a lot of moderate or casual users for their business to make sense, as they have to pay per port and therefore need a favourable contention rate. It's not like there being a wholesale price per user.

In the year 2003 FRIACO should only be considered a temporary crutch for pockets where dsl services are not available yet and for a small segment of users.

The price needs to be low, uncomfortable and unprofitable for the incumbent, so that he wants to finally move into the right direction and provide us all with broadband at a decent price.

A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

Peter

pete

In an ideal world, yes... but here in Ireland, is it economically viable to provide FRIACO at €10? Given the size of the market here, will economies of scale cover provision of the bandwidth, support, maintenance, advertising & administration for all users?

I'm not sayin they won't - I just haven't seen any economic justification for that price other than "they have it over there and now we want it over here".

spongebob

Originally posted by eircomtribunal

Don't forget that with dial-up your telephone line does not stay free as it does with DSL, so you have to take the line rental into account - with 19.60 euros we have the most expensive in Europe.

ET

as a matter of (Great) interest , do you have a link handy to any definitive survey at EU or OECD level on analogue and/or basic rate isdn line rental.....now that the competition commission have their protocol in place with Comreg.

M

Lemming

Originally posted by pete
In an ideal world, yes... but here in Ireland, is it economically viable to provide FRIACO at €10? Given the size of the market here, will economies of scale cover provision of the bandwidth, support, maintenance, advertising & administration for all users?

I'm not sayin they won't - I just haven't seen any economically justification for that price other than "they have it over there and now we want it over here".

Whilst I think that 10 euro for the consumer is asking a little much, the whole "smaller" market thingy is a bit of a misnomer imo.

Smaller market = less logistics. It's not like they have to have the same logistics count as Licensed Operators in the UK or France (Oh, wait ... eircom are grossly overstaffed, so they do actually ):rolleyes:

saik

any sort of fair use policy should be TORN ASUNDER. you pay for your pathetic bandwidth, hence you can't be said to be abusing it by using it. nothing annoys me more than this.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Muck
do you have a link handy to any definitive survey at EU or OECD level on analogue and/or basic rate isdn line rental.....now that the competition commission have their protocol in place with Comreg.

M

Residential line charges

Here's how ComReg "informs" the public and the minister about the matter of Eircom increasing the rental fee from 18.24 euros to 19.60 euros in their uniquely deceitful way.

From ComReg's "Quarterly Market Commentary", December 2002 (Doc Nr 02/106a):

"Tariffs
Irish PSTN and leased lines tariffs changed little relative to those in comparator countries in the last quarter."


But here are the facts:
Residential line rental, monthly, in EUR including VAT (August 2002):

Greece 11.78
France 13.00
Germany 13.33
Spain 13.54
Finland 13.46
Sweden 13.49
Portugal 14.10
Italy 14.88
UK 15.48
Denmark 15.71
Belgium 16.20
Netherlands 17.20
Luxembourg 18.40
Austria 18.48
Ireland 19.60


The list is from a 3.December 2002 EC paper, on pages 74 or 75

I have no ISDN line comparison pricing handy.

Peter

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by saik
any sort of fair use policy should be TORN ASUNDER. you pay for your pathetic bandwidth, hence you can't be said to be abusing it by using it. nothing annoys me more than this.

The FRIACO model just would not work if every user was always on as the ISP pays a lot more per port to the incumbent than he is charging the subscriber. So as a necessity the subscribers have to share the port, which would not work if everyone was to use it all the time. Think of a few people sharing one car - it just would not work if everyone insisted to use the car all the time.
While a few UK ISP's do not have a "fair use"(sorry for the word) time restriction, they make sure that people are not always on by disconnecting them every 2 hours or so.
If the flatrate dial-up package is really cheap it will attract a lot of moderate and casual users too and the system can work.

FRIACO is a bad idea, a detour, helpful as a little sideshow, but it should not detract anybody from the main event: the speedy roll-out of cheap broadband.

ADSL is by now getting available for between 25 and 45 euros all around us and it is really a pity that (we think) we have to go the FRIACO detour to try to make Eircom stop blocking the DSL route.

Peter

SkepticOne

Some basic facts about flat rate dial-up and ISDN:

1. It is not "always on". ISPs will most likely introduce idle cut offs + automatic cut offs at regular intervals to discourage hogging. ISPs will determine this. This is because on PSTN, you take up resources even if you are not downloading anything, unlike broadband.

2. If you don't like cut offs, then there may well be advance fee discount services like UTVip and NetSmart. Both off-peak and on-peak will hopefully be covered.

3. It is not a substitute for broadband nor is it intended to be. It is for ordinary internet users and potential internet users who may be put off by clock watching.

4. Broadband is for people who need to have long periods of uninterupted connectivity.

5. FRIACO does not guarantee that any sort of flat rate will become available. It could be that only advance fee discount services (where you pay in advance for a certain no of hours) emerge. Hopefully, however, these will be better value than those currently offered by UTVi and NetSmart.

6. Dial-up and ISDN flat rate is far more expensive than broadband on a bandwidth basis due to the legacy nature of PSTN technologies.

spongebob

Some Stats

Country LineRent Population Area KM 2 Pop Per Km 2

Finland 13.46 5,183,545 305,470 17
Sweden 13.49 8,876,744 410,934 22
Ireland 19.60 3,883,859 68,890 56

Ireland has a Line Rental of 19.60 Incl VAT

Ireland as % of European Median 140%
Ireland as % of European Average 130%

Fabulous

Vat Rates are

Finland 22%
Sweden 25%
Ireland 21%

so ya can't blame the taxman

M

Xian

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
FRIACO is a bad idea, a detour, helpful as a little sideshow

That's news to me, IrelandOffline, Forfás, Dermot Ahern (from your own site ffs, under the heading "Dermot, you have raised our hopes and our spirits!"), Mary Hanafin, Bill Murphy, ComReg, Analysis, Karlin Lillington, the Advisory Committee on Telecommunications to the DoPE, the National Competitiveness Council, the Advisory Committee on Infocoms, the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, the Western Development Commission...

Is there something you know that we don't?

ADSL is by now getting available for between 25 and 45 euros all around us and it is really a pity that (we think) we have to go the FRIACO detour to try to make Eircom stop blocking the DSL route.

As has been pointed out before, DSL can't be imported. It is also that price abroad due largely to significant competition from cable companies, something that is absent here. If you think that Ireland's broadband needs will be addressed by DSL then you should think again. Focussing on DSL without developing a viable last mile alternative will keep Ireland in the monopolistic doldrums it is in today for years to come.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Xian

That's news to me...
Is there something you know that we don't?

Xian,

FRIACO is more (or less!) in the bag. It is as welcome for me as it is for you. And I have given my 2 cents of effort to lobby for it. Whether it will cost 10 euros or 35 euros is not that important for me personally: It will considerably cut my Internet access costs. But that is not the point.
I don't want to repeat my arguments here, just the one issue I posted earlier in this thead:
A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

As has been pointed out before, DSL can't be imported. It is also that price abroad due largely to significant competition from cable companies, something that is absent here.

Why should we repeat that old and lame ODTR excuse? We have no cable competition, so we never can have prices like everywhere else? It is exactly the role of the regulator to act when competition is not doing the job!
Have a look at our DSL pricing in comparison with Europe:

We don't need to import DSL. We need our regulator to set a cost orientated wholesale access to DSL and not agree to the moonpricing set by the incumbent.

If you think that Ireland's broadband needs will be addressed by DSL then you should think again.

How then? Btw, ComReg have just published a useful paper about new developments on dsl: doc 03/01

Focussing on DSL without developing a viable last mile alternative will keep Ireland in the monopolistic doldrums it is in today for years to come.

?!?

Peter

BigEejit

A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

Absolutely spot on .... expecting me to be jumping for joy for friaco at 30 euros (max 56k, I get booted every 2 hours (probably) and tie up my line when online) when most of europe get a service that is the same (or similar) cost (but is 10 times faster (or more), is always on and people can ring me)

Eircom is most likely not exactly delighted about friaco, but then again they are STILL shafting us for a 56k service ... just making a little less money ... they can still charge whatever the hell they want for dsl .. and esat will price their service to be 0.01 % cheaper (albeit with no cap)

Ardmore

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
Residential line charges

Here's how ComReg "informs" the public and the minister about the matter of Eircom increasing the rental fee from 18.24 euros to 19.60 euros in their uniquely deceitful way.

As recently as 1999, the Line Rental was £20+VAT for 2 months - about €15.35. And "Call waiting" was free at the time - now it's another euro per month.

Is anyone out there still paying "rental" on their phone handset?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
Absolutely spot on .... expecting me to be jumping for joy for friaco at 30 euros (max 56k, I get booted every 2 hours (probably) and tie up my line when online) when most of europe get a service that is the same (or similar) cost (but is 10 times faster (or more), is always on and people can ring me)

Personally, I would not expect anyone who's been waiting for broadband for years to get excited about dial up (flat rate or otherwise). It's aimed at a different target group.

BigEejit

Posted by ScepticOne
Personally, I would not expect anyone who's been waiting for broadband for years to get excited about dial up (flat rate or otherwise). It's aimed at a different target group.

I really dont see how any grouping could be happy with those costs for that service ... I know, I know people will trot out the old chestnut that its a stepping stone to broadband but that is mad when you can get a miles better service anywhere else for that cost .... as has been said repeatedly elsewhere all over boards.ie ... Irish people will only complain when everyone else is complaining first .....

And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee ) have f*cked us over as badly as any dopey/useless minister by letting eircom set their rates of everything they have so high ... useless feckers can only redeem themselves by setting aside LARGE portions of the radio spectrum for wireless broadband for use by anyone like wifi ...

dahamsta

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee )

I'm quite disappointed no-one's referred to them as ConReg yet.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

I dunno, people seemed fairly pleased when UTVip came out with their 27 euro service (off-peak only).

There's very little relationship between the retail price of dial-up and broadband. Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities. Not sure where you are coming from here.

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
There's very little relationship between the retail price of dial-up and broadband. Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities. Not sure where you are coming from here.

Er ... this isnt Belgium .. I dont know what sort of a telecoms situation they have there so I wont comment on their peculiarities ...
What I will comment on is Eircom ... are you going to tell me that Eircom will charge less for broadband in Dublin than they will charge someone in Donegal for FRIACO narrowband?? the answer is no ... not a f*cking hope ...

What I am saying is that going by usual Eircom form... if they charge "X" for a narrowband service you can be bloody sure that they will charge 3 or 4 times "X" for broadband ... and (nearly) every other broadband supplier will base their charge on Eircoms ..

so => expensive narrowband (and 30 euro per month is expensive) = insanely expensive broadband

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by BigEejit
I really dont see how any grouping could be happy with those costs for that service ... I know, I know people will trot out the old chestnut that its a stepping stone to broadband but that is mad when you can get a miles better service anywhere else for that cost .... as has been said repeatedly elsewhere all over boards.ie ... Irish people will only complain when everyone else is complaining first .....

And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee ) have f*cked us over as badly as any dopey/useless minister by letting eircom set their rates of everything they have so high ... useless feckers can only redeem themselves by setting aside LARGE portions of the radio spectrum for wireless broadband for use by anyone like wifi ...

Agreed 100%. Very well said. €30 euro for a narrowband flat rate prouduct in the year 2003 is less than what I would call acceptable. But since we have never had it before (on a widescale) it may go someway to lowering dsl prices, although with Eircon setting the prices, who knows.
Whatever the outcome it will be along time before we have uncapped DSL for €40 a month unlike, of course, that beacon of internet connectivty in the modern world ehhh Estonia.
How much damage is our sloppy connectivity and over priced bandwidth doing to the future of this country is anyones guess but as recent reports have demonstrated it certainly is not helping matters.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
What I am saying is that going by usual Eircom form... if they charge "X" for a narrowband service you can be bloody sure that they will charge 3 or 4 times "X" for broadband ... and (nearly) every other broadband supplier will base their charge on Eircoms ..

I don't agree with this. Whilst it would be very nice to get an extremely low (not going to happen) flat rate service based on FRIACO, it does not follow that Eircom will charge 3 or 4 times the typical FRIACO price.

Firstly, you are leaving out costs in your analysis and secondly, any residential broadband service will be competing not with a 24/7 flat rate but with the off peak version which should be a lot cheaper.

All this is accademic because FRIACO as it is being implemented will not result in widely available flat-rate. We also don't know the final per-port FRIACO price.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I don't agree with this.

You don't agree that Eircom will always try to charge 3-4 times as much for broadband as they can get for narrowband?

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but if you keep that up you'll have to change your "handle"!

Whilst it would be very nice to get an extremely low (not going to happen) flat rate service based on FRIACO, it does not follow that Eircom will charge 3 or 4 times the typical FRIACO price.

Firstly, you are leaving out costs in your analysis

The only relevant "costs" are the cost to the consumer - as we saw with the wholesale price for bitstream, Eircom can come up with any cost firgures they feel like, and the regulator will take them at their word (or be forced to by a judge who dosn't know any better).

and secondly, any residential broadband service will be competing not with a 24/7 flat rate but with the off peak version which should be a lot cheaper.

Why will off peak FRIACO be cheaper? Do access ports magically get cheaper after 6PM? Demand for dialup capacity may actually be higher at off peak times than during the day (unless the price is so high that home users just stick to their "free" ISP - €22 per month for an hour a day, you'd be surprised how many people would think you'd have to be a right sad bastard to spend more than an hour a day on the 'net!)

SkepticOne

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but if you keep that up you'll have to change your "handle"!

That is not what I said. They may well charge that, but it will only be partially due to the FRIACO price they charge. Other factors need to be taken into consideration.

The only relevant "costs" are the cost to the consumer - as we saw with the wholesale price for bitstream, Eircom can come up with any cost firgures they feel like, and the regulator will take them at their word (or be forced to by a judge who dosn't know any better).[/q]

The costs to Eircom are also significant. If costs are such that significant profits are taken out of dial-up for Eircom, then some of the disincentive will be be removed. The important thing is that the FRIACO price is strictly cost-oriented (preferably on the basis of an efficient European operator). If Eircom get away with charging what they like (as you say) then, of course, they will charge a lot and this will be passed on. However, with FRIACO, most of the network elements involved are known and ComReg are on surer footing here with regard to costing. The point I was making is that it is the profits that get taken out of the dial up that is also a factor.

Obviously the lower the FRIACO price the more disincentive.

Why will off peak FRIACO be cheaper? Do access ports magically get cheaper after 6PM? Demand for dialup capacity may actually be higher at off peak times than during the day (unless the price is so high that home users just stick to their "free" ISP - €22 per month for an hour a day, you'd be surprised how many people would think you'd have to be a right sad bastard to spend more than an hour a day on the 'net!)

In Britain, retail flat-rate has split into two to cater to the business and residential segments. I think that something similar will happen here with off-peak being cheaper than 24/7.