Dermot, tell ComReg to cut the crap

eircomtribunal

Our letter to Minister Dermot Ahern about ADSL pricing across Europe and more.

SkepticOne

I like the attached letter. It illustrates the link between jobs and broadband in very concrete terms. This is something that a lot of these reports coming out can't do.

Dustaz

That letter is outstanding.

I dont suppose theres any figures for commercial pullouts/collapses due to poor telecoms but that letter sums up what we all know can happen because of the duopoly.

Yet again, GG ET

parasite

i totally agree with the price of 10 yoyo's, i'm still baffled why ioffl said 30 was acceptable

pork99

I feel very sorry for Mr Farrell but I don't believe Ahern, Hanafin, Dept of Fish & Telephones, CumRag, Esat or least of all Eircom give a flying fornication about him and his company.

Its blindingly obvious that without people like him getting sucessful companies off the ground the economy is going down the toilet. But that only effects the mug punters like us. Ahern, Hanafin, Dept of Fish & Telephones, CumRag, Esat & Eircom are sitting pretty no matter what happens i.e. they are sponging off the taxpayer or have a safe duopoly. They are laughing at us.

I would love to see the lot of them busted to more appropriate positions for their abilities such as lavatory attendant, traffic light squegee-merchant or peep-show jizz mopper, yep thats about their level (perhaps I'm being unfair to lavatory attendants etc)

But look at the government. They are middle-aged hicks. To them high tech industry is something which magically appears after fellating some rich yanks. They're completely and utterly clueless. This is a country with seriously the wrong people in charge. (for a start I would give Dermot Ahern's job to eircomtribunal )

PiE

Whatever about Comreg etc, I love eircomtribunal.com

Another great article ;]

corkey

Great well done, like the letter the way it shows small companys
being screwed by the telcos here

pete

Originally posted by parasite
i totally agree with the price of 10 yoyo's, i'm still baffled why ioffl said 30 was acceptable

dammit i want it for free.

no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.


ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by pete
dammit i want it for free.

no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.


ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

€30 is acceptable...for Ireland that is. Anywhere else and it would most likely not be classed as a rip off for 56k. It just means we are a long, long way off €30/€40 for real 512kbps DSL like they have in those really advanced and industrial countries like ummm Estonia ehh, cough.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by pete
dammit i want it for free.
no, wait - i want THEM to pay ME.
ps maybe that eircomtribunal page refers to wholesale rates.

From the user's point 10 euros is not cheap for dial-up access:
To compare with a 256 kbit/s broadband connection: you need to use four 64 ISDN channels, that's two ISDN lines at 60 euros and 40 euros for the flatrate fee for the four channels. You'll end up with a hundred euro bill for your not-always on connection. As a single modem user you'll probably only get a 40 kbit/s connection at most, a lot less in many cases, making the equation even more unfavourable. Your ISP will disconnect you every few hours automatically, playing havoc with file downloads and updates and a nice "fair use policy" will limit your "always"-on-time.

Don't forget that with dial-up your telephone line does not stay free as it does with DSL, so you have to take the line rental into account - with 19.60 euros we have the most expensive in Europe.

For most flatrate dial-up users worldwide the dial-up flat-rate charge would be at around 10euros. We should not always only look to the UK for comparison. In the UK flatrate dial-up costs from 20 euros.

The proposed (non-tandem) FRIACO model in Ireland, where the provider has to connect directly into each of the exchanges leads to very small costs for the incumbent; should really be covered by the line rental. The ISP side of things should be possible with 10 euros.

If the providers can only offer flatrate dial-up at high costs they'll attract mostly heavy users - and those are no good to them. They need a lot of moderate or casual users for their business to make sense, as they have to pay per port and therefore need a favourable contention rate. It's not like there being a wholesale price per user.

In the year 2003 FRIACO should only be considered a temporary crutch for pockets where dsl services are not available yet and for a small segment of users.

The price needs to be low, uncomfortable and unprofitable for the incumbent, so that he wants to finally move into the right direction and provide us all with broadband at a decent price.

A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

Peter

pete

In an ideal world, yes... but here in Ireland, is it economically viable to provide FRIACO at €10? Given the size of the market here, will economies of scale cover provision of the bandwidth, support, maintenance, advertising & administration for all users?

I'm not sayin they won't - I just haven't seen any economic justification for that price other than "they have it over there and now we want it over here".

spongebob

Originally posted by eircomtribunal

Don't forget that with dial-up your telephone line does not stay free as it does with DSL, so you have to take the line rental into account - with 19.60 euros we have the most expensive in Europe.

ET

as a matter of (Great) interest , do you have a link handy to any definitive survey at EU or OECD level on analogue and/or basic rate isdn line rental.....now that the competition commission have their protocol in place with Comreg.

M

Lemming

Originally posted by pete
In an ideal world, yes... but here in Ireland, is it economically viable to provide FRIACO at €10? Given the size of the market here, will economies of scale cover provision of the bandwidth, support, maintenance, advertising & administration for all users?

I'm not sayin they won't - I just haven't seen any economically justification for that price other than "they have it over there and now we want it over here".

Whilst I think that 10 euro for the consumer is asking a little much, the whole "smaller" market thingy is a bit of a misnomer imo.

Smaller market = less logistics. It's not like they have to have the same logistics count as Licensed Operators in the UK or France (Oh, wait ... eircom are grossly overstaffed, so they do actually ):rolleyes:

saik

any sort of fair use policy should be TORN ASUNDER. you pay for your pathetic bandwidth, hence you can't be said to be abusing it by using it. nothing annoys me more than this.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Muck
do you have a link handy to any definitive survey at EU or OECD level on analogue and/or basic rate isdn line rental.....now that the competition commission have their protocol in place with Comreg.

M

Residential line charges

Here's how ComReg "informs" the public and the minister about the matter of Eircom increasing the rental fee from 18.24 euros to 19.60 euros in their uniquely deceitful way.

From ComReg's "Quarterly Market Commentary", December 2002 (Doc Nr 02/106a):

"Tariffs
Irish PSTN and leased lines tariffs changed little relative to those in comparator countries in the last quarter."


But here are the facts:
Residential line rental, monthly, in EUR including VAT (August 2002):

Greece 11.78
France 13.00
Germany 13.33
Spain 13.54
Finland 13.46
Sweden 13.49
Portugal 14.10
Italy 14.88
UK 15.48
Denmark 15.71
Belgium 16.20
Netherlands 17.20
Luxembourg 18.40
Austria 18.48
Ireland 19.60


The list is from a 3.December 2002 EC paper, on pages 74 or 75

I have no ISDN line comparison pricing handy.

Peter

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by saik
any sort of fair use policy should be TORN ASUNDER. you pay for your pathetic bandwidth, hence you can't be said to be abusing it by using it. nothing annoys me more than this.

The FRIACO model just would not work if every user was always on as the ISP pays a lot more per port to the incumbent than he is charging the subscriber. So as a necessity the subscribers have to share the port, which would not work if everyone was to use it all the time. Think of a few people sharing one car - it just would not work if everyone insisted to use the car all the time.
While a few UK ISP's do not have a "fair use"(sorry for the word) time restriction, they make sure that people are not always on by disconnecting them every 2 hours or so.
If the flatrate dial-up package is really cheap it will attract a lot of moderate and casual users too and the system can work.

FRIACO is a bad idea, a detour, helpful as a little sideshow, but it should not detract anybody from the main event: the speedy roll-out of cheap broadband.

ADSL is by now getting available for between 25 and 45 euros all around us and it is really a pity that (we think) we have to go the FRIACO detour to try to make Eircom stop blocking the DSL route.

Peter

SkepticOne

Some basic facts about flat rate dial-up and ISDN:

1. It is not "always on". ISPs will most likely introduce idle cut offs + automatic cut offs at regular intervals to discourage hogging. ISPs will determine this. This is because on PSTN, you take up resources even if you are not downloading anything, unlike broadband.

2. If you don't like cut offs, then there may well be advance fee discount services like UTVip and NetSmart. Both off-peak and on-peak will hopefully be covered.

3. It is not a substitute for broadband nor is it intended to be. It is for ordinary internet users and potential internet users who may be put off by clock watching.

4. Broadband is for people who need to have long periods of uninterupted connectivity.

5. FRIACO does not guarantee that any sort of flat rate will become available. It could be that only advance fee discount services (where you pay in advance for a certain no of hours) emerge. Hopefully, however, these will be better value than those currently offered by UTVi and NetSmart.

6. Dial-up and ISDN flat rate is far more expensive than broadband on a bandwidth basis due to the legacy nature of PSTN technologies.

spongebob

Some Stats

Country LineRent Population Area KM 2 Pop Per Km 2

Finland 13.46 5,183,545 305,470 17
Sweden 13.49 8,876,744 410,934 22
Ireland 19.60 3,883,859 68,890 56

Ireland has a Line Rental of 19.60 Incl VAT

Ireland as % of European Median 140%
Ireland as % of European Average 130%

Fabulous

Vat Rates are

Finland 22%
Sweden 25%
Ireland 21%

so ya can't blame the taxman

M

Xian

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
FRIACO is a bad idea, a detour, helpful as a little sideshow

That's news to me, IrelandOffline, Forfás, Dermot Ahern (from your own site ffs, under the heading "Dermot, you have raised our hopes and our spirits!"), Mary Hanafin, Bill Murphy, ComReg, Analysis, Karlin Lillington, the Advisory Committee on Telecommunications to the DoPE, the National Competitiveness Council, the Advisory Committee on Infocoms, the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, the Western Development Commission...

Is there something you know that we don't?

ADSL is by now getting available for between 25 and 45 euros all around us and it is really a pity that (we think) we have to go the FRIACO detour to try to make Eircom stop blocking the DSL route.

As has been pointed out before, DSL can't be imported. It is also that price abroad due largely to significant competition from cable companies, something that is absent here. If you think that Ireland's broadband needs will be addressed by DSL then you should think again. Focussing on DSL without developing a viable last mile alternative will keep Ireland in the monopolistic doldrums it is in today for years to come.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Xian

That's news to me...
Is there something you know that we don't?

Xian,

FRIACO is more (or less!) in the bag. It is as welcome for me as it is for you. And I have given my 2 cents of effort to lobby for it. Whether it will cost 10 euros or 35 euros is not that important for me personally: It will considerably cut my Internet access costs. But that is not the point.
I don't want to repeat my arguments here, just the one issue I posted earlier in this thead:
A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

As has been pointed out before, DSL can't be imported. It is also that price abroad due largely to significant competition from cable companies, something that is absent here.

Why should we repeat that old and lame ODTR excuse? We have no cable competition, so we never can have prices like everywhere else? It is exactly the role of the regulator to act when competition is not doing the job!
Have a look at our DSL pricing in comparison with Europe:

We don't need to import DSL. We need our regulator to set a cost orientated wholesale access to DSL and not agree to the moonpricing set by the incumbent.

If you think that Ireland's broadband needs will be addressed by DSL then you should think again.

How then? Btw, ComReg have just published a useful paper about new developments on dsl: doc 03/01

Focussing on DSL without developing a viable last mile alternative will keep Ireland in the monopolistic doldrums it is in today for years to come.

?!?

Peter

BigEejit

A low FRIACO price is a good tool to push for broadband.
A high FRIACO price is another wasted opportunity.

Absolutely spot on .... expecting me to be jumping for joy for friaco at 30 euros (max 56k, I get booted every 2 hours (probably) and tie up my line when online) when most of europe get a service that is the same (or similar) cost (but is 10 times faster (or more), is always on and people can ring me)

Eircom is most likely not exactly delighted about friaco, but then again they are STILL shafting us for a 56k service ... just making a little less money ... they can still charge whatever the hell they want for dsl .. and esat will price their service to be 0.01 % cheaper (albeit with no cap)

Ardmore

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
Residential line charges

Here's how ComReg "informs" the public and the minister about the matter of Eircom increasing the rental fee from 18.24 euros to 19.60 euros in their uniquely deceitful way.

As recently as 1999, the Line Rental was £20+VAT for 2 months - about €15.35. And "Call waiting" was free at the time - now it's another euro per month.

Is anyone out there still paying "rental" on their phone handset?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
Absolutely spot on .... expecting me to be jumping for joy for friaco at 30 euros (max 56k, I get booted every 2 hours (probably) and tie up my line when online) when most of europe get a service that is the same (or similar) cost (but is 10 times faster (or more), is always on and people can ring me)

Personally, I would not expect anyone who's been waiting for broadband for years to get excited about dial up (flat rate or otherwise). It's aimed at a different target group.

BigEejit

Posted by ScepticOne
Personally, I would not expect anyone who's been waiting for broadband for years to get excited about dial up (flat rate or otherwise). It's aimed at a different target group.

I really dont see how any grouping could be happy with those costs for that service ... I know, I know people will trot out the old chestnut that its a stepping stone to broadband but that is mad when you can get a miles better service anywhere else for that cost .... as has been said repeatedly elsewhere all over boards.ie ... Irish people will only complain when everyone else is complaining first .....

And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee ) have f*cked us over as badly as any dopey/useless minister by letting eircom set their rates of everything they have so high ... useless feckers can only redeem themselves by setting aside LARGE portions of the radio spectrum for wireless broadband for use by anyone like wifi ...

dahamsta

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee )

I'm quite disappointed no-one's referred to them as ConReg yet.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

I dunno, people seemed fairly pleased when UTVip came out with their 27 euro service (off-peak only).

There's very little relationship between the retail price of dial-up and broadband. Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities. Not sure where you are coming from here.

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
There's very little relationship between the retail price of dial-up and broadband. Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities. Not sure where you are coming from here.

Er ... this isnt Belgium .. I dont know what sort of a telecoms situation they have there so I wont comment on their peculiarities ...
What I will comment on is Eircom ... are you going to tell me that Eircom will charge less for broadband in Dublin than they will charge someone in Donegal for FRIACO narrowband?? the answer is no ... not a f*cking hope ...

What I am saying is that going by usual Eircom form... if they charge "X" for a narrowband service you can be bloody sure that they will charge 3 or 4 times "X" for broadband ... and (nearly) every other broadband supplier will base their charge on Eircoms ..

so => expensive narrowband (and 30 euro per month is expensive) = insanely expensive broadband

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by BigEejit
I really dont see how any grouping could be happy with those costs for that service ... I know, I know people will trot out the old chestnut that its a stepping stone to broadband but that is mad when you can get a miles better service anywhere else for that cost .... as has been said repeatedly elsewhere all over boards.ie ... Irish people will only complain when everyone else is complaining first .....

And I am VERY sceptical that a 30 euro narrowband offering is a stepping stone to anything ... narrowband is supposed to be cheap ... if people think that 30 euro is cheap then they are a lot richer than me ... so DSL broadband is always going to be multiples of the cost of narrowband .. we'll never see 512k DSL broadband for under 80 euros at this rate or under 150 euros uncapped .. ...

Comreg (or as I saw them described elsewhere on boards.ie - "Cumrag" heehee ) have f*cked us over as badly as any dopey/useless minister by letting eircom set their rates of everything they have so high ... useless feckers can only redeem themselves by setting aside LARGE portions of the radio spectrum for wireless broadband for use by anyone like wifi ...

Agreed 100%. Very well said. €30 euro for a narrowband flat rate prouduct in the year 2003 is less than what I would call acceptable. But since we have never had it before (on a widescale) it may go someway to lowering dsl prices, although with Eircon setting the prices, who knows.
Whatever the outcome it will be along time before we have uncapped DSL for €40 a month unlike, of course, that beacon of internet connectivty in the modern world ehhh Estonia.
How much damage is our sloppy connectivity and over priced bandwidth doing to the future of this country is anyones guess but as recent reports have demonstrated it certainly is not helping matters.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BigEejit
What I am saying is that going by usual Eircom form... if they charge "X" for a narrowband service you can be bloody sure that they will charge 3 or 4 times "X" for broadband ... and (nearly) every other broadband supplier will base their charge on Eircoms ..

I don't agree with this. Whilst it would be very nice to get an extremely low (not going to happen) flat rate service based on FRIACO, it does not follow that Eircom will charge 3 or 4 times the typical FRIACO price.

Firstly, you are leaving out costs in your analysis and secondly, any residential broadband service will be competing not with a 24/7 flat rate but with the off peak version which should be a lot cheaper.

All this is accademic because FRIACO as it is being implemented will not result in widely available flat-rate. We also don't know the final per-port FRIACO price.

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I don't agree with this.

You don't agree that Eircom will always try to charge 3-4 times as much for broadband as they can get for narrowband?

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but if you keep that up you'll have to change your "handle"!

Whilst it would be very nice to get an extremely low (not going to happen) flat rate service based on FRIACO, it does not follow that Eircom will charge 3 or 4 times the typical FRIACO price.

Firstly, you are leaving out costs in your analysis

The only relevant "costs" are the cost to the consumer - as we saw with the wholesale price for bitstream, Eircom can come up with any cost firgures they feel like, and the regulator will take them at their word (or be forced to by a judge who dosn't know any better).

and secondly, any residential broadband service will be competing not with a 24/7 flat rate but with the off peak version which should be a lot cheaper.

Why will off peak FRIACO be cheaper? Do access ports magically get cheaper after 6PM? Demand for dialup capacity may actually be higher at off peak times than during the day (unless the price is so high that home users just stick to their "free" ISP - €22 per month for an hour a day, you'd be surprised how many people would think you'd have to be a right sad bastard to spend more than an hour a day on the 'net!)

SkepticOne

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but if you keep that up you'll have to change your "handle"!

That is not what I said. They may well charge that, but it will only be partially due to the FRIACO price they charge. Other factors need to be taken into consideration.

The only relevant "costs" are the cost to the consumer - as we saw with the wholesale price for bitstream, Eircom can come up with any cost firgures they feel like, and the regulator will take them at their word (or be forced to by a judge who dosn't know any better).[/q]

The costs to Eircom are also significant. If costs are such that significant profits are taken out of dial-up for Eircom, then some of the disincentive will be be removed. The important thing is that the FRIACO price is strictly cost-oriented (preferably on the basis of an efficient European operator). If Eircom get away with charging what they like (as you say) then, of course, they will charge a lot and this will be passed on. However, with FRIACO, most of the network elements involved are known and ComReg are on surer footing here with regard to costing. The point I was making is that it is the profits that get taken out of the dial up that is also a factor.

Obviously the lower the FRIACO price the more disincentive.

Why will off peak FRIACO be cheaper? Do access ports magically get cheaper after 6PM? Demand for dialup capacity may actually be higher at off peak times than during the day (unless the price is so high that home users just stick to their "free" ISP - €22 per month for an hour a day, you'd be surprised how many people would think you'd have to be a right sad bastard to spend more than an hour a day on the 'net!)

In Britain, retail flat-rate has split into two to cater to the business and residential segments. I think that something similar will happen here with off-peak being cheaper than 24/7.

Fergus

It just seems we keep getting back to the same issue.

Eircon will not provide wholesale access to anything at cost-oriented prices. FRIACO in whatever form will most likely suffer the same fate. Either:

(a) ConReg force real cost-oriented prices, so real competition can take place on the eircon network. I doubt they are up to the task.

or

(b) A competitor uses LLU and a large-scale rollout of alternative infrastructure to circumvent Eircon. But no-one seems to have the stomach for that sort of investment.


IIRC, the LLU price was eventually set at the EU average and the proposed price from eircon was disregarded. Why didn't / couldn't this happen for bitstream, and the forthcoming FRIACO?

Ardmore

Originally posted by SkepticOne
The important thing is that the FRIACO price is strictly cost-oriented (preferably on the basis of an efficient European operator). If Eircom get away with charging what they like (as you say) then, of course, they will charge a lot and this will be passed on.

The price for Eircoms wholesale bitstream service was set under exactly the same conditions as the price for Fridaco (cost to an efficient operator).

Eircom managed to get a wholesale price that is multiples of the retail price in neighbouring countries. As far as I know, their supporting arguments were not released as they contain "sensitive commercial information".

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ardmore
The price for Eircoms wholesale bitstream service was set under exactly the same conditions as the price for Fridaco (cost to an efficient operator).

Eircom managed to get a wholesale price that is multiples of the retail price in neighbouring countries. As far as I know, their supporting arguments were not released as they contain "sensitive commercial information".

I agree that if this were to happen, then FRIACO would be a disaster. Eircom probably justified their price on the basis of a low volume business service. Whatever fixed costs associated with enabling an exchange would then be allocated to fewer individual services sold and therefore the cost per service would be high. These arguments would not work with FRIACO which is a capacity based service.

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I agree that if this were to happen, then FRIACO would be a disaster. Eircom probably justified their price on the basis of a low volume business service. Whatever fixed costs associated with enabling an exchange would then be allocated to fewer individual services sold and therefore the cost per service would be high. These arguments would not work with FRIACO which is a capacity based service.

Which brings me back to the idea that Eircom will charge 3 to 4 times for DSL over flat rate..

SkepticOne

Well, if anyone thinks we're going to get 24/7 flat rate for 10 euros...

BigEejit

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Well, if anyone thinks we're going to get 24/7 flat rate for 10 euros...

I've said all along that the expected (I'm kind of sure EsatBT mentioned that number) price for [edit]I should have typed flat rate here :rolleyes: [/edit] was in or around 30 euros ...

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I dunno, people seemed fairly pleased when UTVip came out with their 27 euro service (off-peak only).

If you've paid multibles of that you are "pleased" of course - but that is not the point.

Belgium has very expensive dial-up yet cheap broadband in the cities.

We need to wake up seriously to the situation of 2003. Look closer at Belgium:

From the Belgacom website:
Belgacom will now be able to provide certain customers residing more than five kilometers from a telephone exchange with an ADSL connection, providing that the intensity of the ADSL signal transmitted on their telephone line is sufficient. A new method of measurement makes it possible to measure signal intensity very precisely.
Thanks to this technique, up to 93% of the population in Belgium can have ADSL access (compared to 90% last year.)

From 03/01/03 till 31/01/03: Sales at Belgacom!
ADSL Installation Pack + Asus USB modem: EUR 29.75


ADSL with 3Mbits downstream for 39 euros a month ( you pay more if you don't want it to be capped at 15 gigs) from the incumbent. Overall bb coverage when the cableproviders are included is 97 percent.

Belgiums very expensive dial-up is simply irrelevant - sorry for the 3 percent outside bb reach - as it is only used by users who don't use the net a lot and are better off with a metered dial-up. And I even doubt that their dial-up access is that expensive.

Peter

Dustaz

Attn Xian :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=508202#post508202


I HATE to say i told you so

(for the record, afair i said that anyone here seeing those prices would hit the roof, and lo and behold...)


To everyone else.

I havent seen a price comparison along the lines of the adsl one for Flat Rate connections. Perhaps there is one?

I know for a fact that flat rate is NOWHERE near €10 per month in the UK and theyve had it for a good few years there. So im afraid realistically, its a case of 'tough'

SkepticOne

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
From the Belgacom website:
Belgacom will now be able to provide certain customers residing more than five kilometers from a telephone exchange with an ADSL connection, providing that the intensity of the ADSL signal transmitted on their telephone line is sufficient. A new method of measurement makes it possible to measure signal intensity very precisely.
Thanks to this technique, up to 93% of the population in Belgium can have ADSL access (compared to 90% last year.)

As I said before, if I thought this (30 euro ADSL) was going to happen here soon, then I would not be arguing for FRIACO strongly.

Apart from this I would never argue that 30 euro flat-rate 24/7 would be good value compared to what is on offer in Belgium and other countries in the form of broadband. The problem is that right now, you have to move to emmigrate to get it. That is the only problem. Otherwise it is great.

Affordable broadband sould still be part of IOFFL's campaign, but we should not lose sight of what is achievable in the short run. That is why I disagree with you that FRIACO is a bad thing. If it improves internet access in some way, then I'm in favour of it. Obviously, the higher priced it is, the less effect it will have on Eircom lowering their ADSL price in isolation (10 euros would be great), but that is to view flat rate purely in terms of a stepping stone to broadband.

The main value of it will be getting more ordinary people on-line and aware of the uses of the internet.

dieselfreak

Peter has done extensive research on this by the sounds of it...

The simple facts remain.... Eircom are happy getting the extorsionate rates from Irish comsumer, why should they invest the share holders cash (whom are owed big time after another fiasco)

When they can milk the grants that they are getting from the government (Irish Consumer yet another hit)

then simply produce the odd report that suggests that Ireland is a market unlike an other on the planet, where people don't want access to the Internet, therfore when they do its so unusual that its fine for that user to pay through the nose for it, cuz it's uneconomical to provide it at a low cost for the amount of users in that area.

The MORONS that are running the show in government probably wouldn't know a PC if it flew in threw thier front window, then get a tech head to write a report explaining whats coming down the line when, the 1500 euro fine scares the pants off Eircom "forcing" them to implement the technology thats already out of date.

Face it guys... Its gonna take some RADICAL moves in legislation (assuming all parties can avoid brown envelope temptation) to make a sigificant change in the situation here in RIP OFF IRELAND..

So roll on 2010 when we have 512K/sec/uncapped/month for €50

Dawg

I know for a fact that flat rate is NOWHERE near €10 per month in the UK and theyve had it for a good few years there. So im afraid realistically, its a case of 'tough'

Sorry but your off the mark a bit there.

Uk packages from BTOW:

BT Anytime: £15.99 per month, 10 mail addresses (POP3 & web based), 50MB webspace, 150 hours per month, peak/off-peak doesn't matter.

BT Surftime: £6.99 per month, 5 mail addressed (POP3 & web based), 10MB webspace, 120 hours per month. Connect at off-peak times - connection during peak hours is to the Pay-As-You-Go number

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Dawg
Sorry but your off the mark a bit there.

Uk packages from BTOW:

BT Anytime: £15.99 per month, 10 mail addresses (POP3 & web based), 50MB webspace, 150 hours per month, peak/off-peak doesn't matter.

This is 24 euros.

BT Surftime: £6.99 per month, 5 mail addressed (POP3 & web based), 10MB webspace, 120 hours per month. Connect at off-peak times - connection during peak hours is to the Pay-As-You-Go number

This is 10.99 euros. I think most of the discussion was about the 24/7 price.

SkepticOne

Probably a better example is Freeserve.

Anytime: 21 euros.

Hometime: 9 euros.

It also shows that off-peak packages should be somewhat cheaper than 24 hour rates. I think Ardmore was disputing this.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Probably a better example is Freeserve.
Anytime: 21 euros.
Hometime: 9 euros.

As far as I remember Freeserve do not restrict your usage hours.

For people in the UK who are outside a dsl enabled area - and there are plenty - this is a welcome solution. (Anybody else can now get ADSL for exactly that same price)

The 9 euro off-peak offer will invite newcomers to the net. My neighbours would not mind trying that one.

So, any reason why we should be talking about 30 euros - and then of course get a 34.99 euro package?

Sure there is no rule that says: Irish price = UK price + 50 percent.

Peter

Xian

1. This is Ireland: not the UK, not the US and definitely not cloudcuckooland.

Pragmatism achieves more than idealism. We have to evaluate advances in internet connectivity in Ireland based on existing services here, not elsewhere, not on what "should be".

2. Flat rate has not yet been introduced.

It is not "in the bag". Not by a long shot. Talk about it's usefulness at this stage is counter-productive. Its importance is agreed upon. This discussion is closed.

3. A flat rate price has not been set

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30. Similar services in the UK are €25. It was reasonable for us to set the higher price as the bounds of affordability in our response to Minister Ahern. If you expected it to be less you were misinformed.

4. Flat rate will not be mandated at below-cost.

This would be unreasonable, illegal and therefore actionable.

Finally, thank you Dustaz for resurrecting that thread. At the end of it I pointed out that Belgium, where ADSL is available at less than €30 and flat rate is not available, has as low an internet penetration rate as Ireland. I imagine it is because the lack of the innovative internet access services that FRIACO makes possible to get casual users to spend longer online prevents the development of a country's active internet population.

Dawg

With either one your getting an off-peak service for under €11. The average user prolly wont have anything so important to do that it cant wait till after 6.

From €ircon's history they'll prolly be looking for 25-30 yoyos for this type of service and far as I know nothings for sure that they will even have an all day offering.

Like peter has said these services should only be there for ppl who cant avail of BB access or for enticing more ppl who would normally never use to internet to do so. If they like what they see they should have an affordable BB package available to move up to from there.

For heavy users here its welcome because we're currently paying mindnumbing prices for a crap service. Other than that its of no use to anyone except casual users.

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30

For a 24/7 connection with a monthly limit not easily reached thats acceptable, but only as a stop gap until they pull their fingers out with the bb options. Any less a service for that price is just another rip-off.

Bring on BB.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Dawg
With either one your getting an off-peak service for under €11. The average user prolly wont have anything so important to do that it cant wait till after 6.

Yes, and most people will be working or at school/college during the day.

From €ircon's history they'll prolly be looking for 25-30 yoyos for this type of service and far as I know nothings for sure that they will even have an all day offering.

If FRIACO is done correctly, then you won't be forced to get your ISP services from Eircom (big if, of course), there will be a choice. They can charge what they want if the don't want the busines.

Like peter has said these services should only be there for ppl who cant avail of BB access or for enticing more ppl who would normally never use to internet to do so. If they like what they see they should have an affordable BB package available to move up to from there.

I agree with this. In Britain 50% of users use flat-rate dial up. Market research done in Ireland suggests that large numbers of users (including those not currently on the net will use a flat rate product if it is priced correctly.

For heavy users its welcome because we're currently paying mindnumbing prices for a crap service. Other than that its of no use to anyone except casual users.

I agree that both heavy and casual users will welcome it.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Xian
is definitely not cloudcuckooland... not on what "should be".
Talk about it's usefulness at this stage is counter-productive...This discussion is closed...If you expected it to be less you were misinformed...Flat rate will not be mandated at below-cost...unreasonable, illegal and therefore actionable...it is because the lack of the innovative internet access services that FRIACO makes possible

Those politbureau style undertones make me somewhat uncomfortable, but perhaps that's only me.

Belgium's Internet penetration rates ( above 35 percent) are as low as Ireland's for one reason only: They are measured correctly, taking the data about active internet user numbers directly from the providers.
Belgiums Broadband rollout is remarkable.


Peter

dahamsta

EsatBT mooted a price range of €25-€30. Similar services in the UK are €25.

No they're not Xian. BT's service is, yes, but they're the incumbent and they can charge what they like because people will sign up with them whether or which; and the same will go for Eircom over here. We shouldn't concentrate on them though, we should concentrate on the OLO's, and getting a fair deal for them.

I think the average retail price should be targetted to about €20-€25 myself, and that €25 should be an absolute maximum. On top of that, there should be full price and Eircom cost reviews every six months, and new prices mandated if the market refuses to compete.

And although we certainly shouldn't force Eircom to sell below cost, we should also not sit back and let them come up with Toytown costs, as they did with ADSL. That was just lies, and the ODTR let them get away with it. And they KNOW they did.

adam

vinnyfitz

In my view the Minister and Comreg should insist the price is no higher than €35 including VAT.

We can hope that competition will, in due course, drive it significantly lower.

If anyone can point me to a regulatory decision in any other country obliging carriers to offer FRIACO at less than € 30 I would be very interested.