Freemasons: Evil secret society or misunderstood nice guys...

getz

Wibbs wrote: »

Not in a huge way, but I'd say it happens alright.

i take it that people do not realize the damage freemasonary did in italy,it took the goverment down,also the british goverments own report,that stated the belief of masonary influence[but not proved] in the cover up of the northern irish shoot to kill allegations,

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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www.independent.co.uk/news/parliament-select-committee-masons-had-role-in - stalker-case-1095975.html. wikipdia.org suppression of freemasonary

Wibbs

getz wrote: »

i take it that people do not realize the damage freemasonary did in italy,it took the goverment down,

Any organisation can be used in such a way. The italian example is a good one. Read up more on italian "secret societies". Indeed AFAIR Italy has or had the most masonic lodges in the world(they have other societies too). There seems to be a cultural thing in italy with societies like this. Comparing lodges here and in Italy while under the same banner is not exactly evidence of any worldwide "masonic conspiracy". I would agree that the notion of a closed or secret society can bring issues with it, by its very nature. It can also bring issues as far as an outsiders perception of it. I would say the latter is a far bigger issue than the former though.

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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i have NEVER said john stalker was involved in any allegations of freemasonary,in fact he knew nothing about it possibly being involved in the shoot to kill inquiry,in fact when he was asked about it,he said he dident know that.if you had read the link you would have seen it was the goverments own committee that brought that up, also i dont believe there is any masonic world conspiracy,this is my points.it is NOT undesirable that people are members of the freemasons,people have got a absolute right to belong to these societies,there are many freemasons in each branch of goverment and the criminal justice system, who preform their duties with absolute fairness and impeccabilty,no question about that,the issue is is there somthing to be worried about ?.yes because of its secreteness, the public will always have a problem with public servants who may or may not have another agenda,goverment officials should declare anything that could conflict with their duties,the tax payer and every citizen has a right to expect that thier public servants are open and above board, if you hide things you cannot complain when accusations get thrown about

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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if you are a irishman going to watch a football match between ireland and england would think it is important to know if the ref is english?

Permabear

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getz

donegalfella wrote: »

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partisanship a good word,if as i am expected to believe[correct me if i am wrong] people join the freemasons [old boys club] for self-interest and mutual self-advancment ?and i should not be worried if i take a freemason to court on a civil offence that the judge is not a freemason ?do you not think i have a right to know ?i certainly do, and i also think many others think the same way as me

Bigdeadlydave

Getz this is a joke. You have never provided any unbiased information/sources at all! Do you really think links to conspiracy websites will cut it? And as for the Independent article I sure as hell saw a lot of "mays" in there. Please produce some solid verifiable fact.

getz

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Getz this is a joke. You have never provided any unbiased information/sources at all! Do you really think links to conspiracy websites will cut it? And as for the Independent article I sure as hell saw a lot of "mays" in there. Please produce some solid verifiable fact.

http/news.bbc.co.uk/hi/uk-news/57463.stm.

Gillo

getz wrote: »

i take it that people do not realize the damage freemasonary did in italy,it took the goverment down,also the british goverments own report,that stated the belief of masonary influence[but not proved] in the cover up of the northern irish shoot to kill allegations,

P2, the lodge you are refering to was not a proper affiiated Masonic lodge as it had been thrown out of the Grand Orient of Italy for the very things you are accusing it off.

Source 1 and wiki.

Bigdeadlydave

getz wrote: »

http/news.bbc.co.uk/hi/uk-news/57463.stm.

Working links would also be helpful.

ISAW

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Getz this is a joke. You have never provided any unbiased information/sources at all!

and your evidence that he hasen't is?

Do you really think links to conspiracy websites will cut it? And as for the Independent article I sure as hell saw a lot of "mays" in there. Please produce some solid verifiable fact.

The following instruction sets out guidance governing the membership by members of the armed forces of societies such as freemasons: there is no intention or policy to preclude service personnel from membership of any lawful and benevolent organisation. However, involvement in organisations of a secretive nature, such as the freemasons, carries with it the risk of establishing disparate loyalties which may have a destabilising influence on the chain of command, not least by the perception of preferential treatment and undue influence. While membership of such organisations is clearly a matter for the individuals concerned, serving personnel should not encourage or promote membership amongst their colleagues, meetings should not be held on MOD premises, and use should not be made of any MOD property.

Ministry of Defense
United Kingdon
New 2001 Department Policy on Freemasonry in the Military

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL11134600M/Ronayne%27s_Handbook_of_Freemasonry
haven't sourced the original yet the quote is meant to be from around p.183

You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.

Partial list of Christian Denominations which forbid membership in the Masonic Lodge Methodist Church of England Wesleyan Methodist Church Russian Orthodox Church
Assemblies of God Church of the Nazarene Orthodox Presbyterian Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church Evangelical Mennonite Church
Church of Scotland Grace Brethren Roman Catholic Church
Christian Reformed Church in America
Evangelical Mennonite Church
Synod Anglican Church of England
Free Church of Scotland
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America
The Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Baptist Union of Scotland
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
Presbyterian Church in America

the above are all "conspiracy theorists" are they?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye

In the late 70s Noye joined the Hammersmith Freeemasons' Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two police officers. He eventually rose to be the master of the lodge with the support of the membership of which the police made up a sizeable proportion. Other masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow mason.

One of Noye's police contacts was prepared to intervene on his behalf not just with fellow officers, but other law agencies. The detective approached a Customs officer investigating Noye in the early 80s and pressurised him to " lay off". The Customs man, at first surprised and then angry, warned that if the conversation went any further, he would have to officially report it.

http://www.thisisnorthdevon.co.uk/news/record-police-freemasons/article-1469944-detail/article.html

http://www.thisissussex.co.uk/crawley/news/EXCLUSIVE-Crawley-council-refuses-publish-register-interests-online/article-1302188-detail/article.html

http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/news/Row-erupts-Tories-lose-committee-seats/article-1026333-detail/article.html

Happy now?

Owen

Absolute bollocks. There are two primary oaths every initiate Freemason has to take - and rather than being someone who just links to articles on the Internet (Which anyone can create, and lie in the process of doing so), I'm actually one, as are many others here on Boards.

1. I will not be involved in conspiracies against the state in which I reside
2. I will be upright (honest) in my dealings with all men.

These ridiculous conspiracy theories are just that.

Bigdeadlydave

ISAW wrote: »

and your evidence that he hasen't is?

Have you actually read the stuff he linked? If I remember correctly he linked porn a while back.(actually it was the other Freemason thread but it was the same type of thing) At least you did a bit of research!


And those things you mentioned about masons conspiring and helping each other out etc.. Is it not equally as likely that the same thing could/does happen between friends who just met in a pub/school/golf club? Why single out masons? I'm sure some of them may be criminals but I believe if you commit a crime you can be thrown out.
To suggest that the existence of masonic lodges is simply to further ones position in society and to conspire/take over the world etc... is very unfair and sensationalist. Personally I'm not a mason(yet anyways, who knows what the future holds), nor are any of my family(to my knowledge) but I'm inclined to take someone like PaintDoctor at his word.

Owen

The hilarious thing about all this is that if anyone was to stand outside a Masonic Lodge and observe the people coming out at the endd of a meeting, you would be pretty surprised. Mostly retired, a few younger, but the majority struggling to survive on an old age pension, and terrified of drunken people out on the streets when they have to leave the Lodge building.

Hardly the type of people who are out to take over the world.

I've been involved for years, and have gone through most of the ranks at this stage, and the only furthering in society I've gotten is that I know a few more people to salute on the street, and have a few more people I can go for a casual cup of coffee with. I still struggle to work and make my rent each month, and put on my trousers one leg at a time like everyone else.

UltimateMale

Their balmed with just about every conspiracy theory you can think of. Reckon it's only a silly society with a schoolboy sense of cloak and dagger.

ISAW

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Absolute bollocks.

You evidence that the ban on being a freemason by a plethora of xchristian denominations is "absolute bollock" is?

There are two primary oaths every initiate Freemason has to take - and rather than being someone who just links to articles on the Internet

What about the later jhugher levels of masonry about which you have no knowledge?

(Which anyone can create, and lie in the process of doing so),

You are now calling me a liar! Just be honest do you think I am a conspiracy theorist and am lying about Freemosonry?

I'm actually one, as are many others here on Boards.

Nice of you to be "on the level" about that. Now have you ever been asked to defend a fellow mason in a debate on boards or to help them out in a discussion?

1. I will not be involved in conspiracies against the state in which I reside
2. I will be upright (honest) in my dealings with all men.

I didn't assert you were conspiring against the state
I am asking you honeltly.
what level of mason are you?
How many levels are there?
What do you know about levels above you?
Do you deny the use of Masonic connections to avoid criminal convictions as given in evidence by me?
Are you saying I am lying about anything?

Please be honest and upright in your answers and hopefully don't ask another Mason to screen them first.

These ridiculous conspiracy theories are just that.

So be honest then WHAT of the following is a lie ?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye

In the late 70s Noye joined the Hammersmith Freeemasons' Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two police officers. He eventually rose to be the master of the lodge with the support of the membership of which the police made up a sizeable proportion. Other masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow mason.

One of Noye's police contacts was prepared to intervene on his behalf not just with fellow officers, but other law agencies. The detective approached a Customs officer investigating Noye in the early 80s and pressurised him to " lay off". The Customs man, at first surprised and then angry, warned that if the conversation went any further, he would have to officially report it.

ISAW

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Have you actually read the stuff he linked? If I remember correctly he linked porn a while back.(actually it was the other Freemason thread but it was the same type of thing) At least you did a bit of research!

Whatever he said elsewhere on another subject I havce no knowledge of nor has it to do with this discussion!

And those things you mentioned about masons conspiring and helping each other out etc.. Is it not equally as likely that the same thing could/does happen between friends who just met in a pub/school/golf club?

Not in the above case Noye had masonic connections and used them. THe other Masons wer not all in the same golf Club or school. Drinking in the same pub does not count it isnt an organisatoin with hierarchy committee etc..

Why single out masons?

That is what the thread is about. If you want to start a thread about golf clubs or schools being secretive and opposed by christian churches you are free to do so.

I'm sure some of them may be criminals but I believe if you commit a crime you can be thrown out.
To suggest that the existence of masonic lodges is simply to further ones position in society and to conspire/take over the world etc... is very unfair and sensationalist.

And is a DIFFERENT TOPIC. clearly whether or not ALL senior Masons everywhere were involved there is evidence of Masons using Masonic connections to thwart justice and for personal gain. If a catholic Bishop or a Politician was doing the same I would not think it would be long before you accused the entire political party or the Catholic church of corruption!

Personally I'm not a mason(yet anyways, who knows what the future holds), nor are any of my family(to my knowledge) but I'm inclined to take someone like PaintDoctor at his word.

As am I. But what level is he at and how many secret levels are above him?

ISAW

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The hilarious thing about all this is that if anyone was to stand outside a Masonic Lodge and observe the people coming out at the endd of a meeting, you would be pretty surprised. Mostly retired, a few younger, but the majority struggling to survive on an old age pension, and terrified of drunken people out on the streets when they have to leave the Lodge building.

Hardly the type of people who are out to take over the world.

One can say the same of a political party or a church but they are accused of secrecy corruption and their hierarchy having different standards and protectionism.

I've been involved for years, and have gone through most of the ranks at this stage,

Great. How many ranks are there and what level are you at?
Do you allow women members?

and the only furthering in society I've gotten is that I know a few more people to salute on the street, and have a few more people I can go for a casual cup of coffee with. I still struggle to work and make my rent each month, and put on my trousers one leg at a time like everyone else.

As does the local bishop and TD. But they don't roll the leg up do they?

Bigdeadlydave

Whatever he said elsewhere on another subject I havce no knowledge of nor has it to do with this discussion!

It was another thread about Freemasons. Perhaps you would like a link?

Do you allow women members?

Seriously this has been asked a million times. Its a FRATERNITY!

You are now calling me a liar! Just be honest do you think I am a conspiracy theorist and am lying about Freemosonry?

I think you are a conspiracy theorist. Not a liar, but simply confused.

So be honest then WHAT of the following is a lie ?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye

Thats from Wikipedia. Nuff said.



And seriously why do you think so Many masons keep quiet about their membership? I'm pretty sure its because they don't want to listen to conspiracy theories about their fraternity, and listen to ridiculous accusations about things others may or may not have done. There are criminals in all walks of life. I have no doubt that over the years some masons have committed crimes. But as far as I know if someone has a significant criminal record they are denied entry/removed in order to preserve the integrity of the Lodge and to not leave the broherhood open to attacks such as yours.

Owen

This thread is hilarious. Absolute comedy, and I really fear for the mental health of people worrying about a club for lads just to have a bit of a laugh, and get on well together.

Or on the other hand, I could be involved in a conspiracy to read your minds right now. Tinfoil hats everyone.

Seriously everyone, grow up. This secret society bull**** is just that. Bull****. You can read everything about Masons online, even the secret handshakes if you google hard enough.

And about those higher orders I was asked about earlier? Yup, they're all fine too. And I should know

Owen

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

But as far as I know if someone has a significant criminal record they are denied entry/removed in order to preserve the integrity of the Lodge and to not leave the broherhood open to attacks such as yours.

I know of two people kicked out in the last 6 years for just those reasons BDD. One was an accountant swindling the books and before the case even went to court, he was turfed out, and the second was a young man with a public order offence - again, probably something minor in society, but you are not allowed to be a member if you break the laws of your state - no matter what your rank.

Jesus if you're all that concerned, join. You can go to a few meetings and walk out if you don't like it. Otherwise, STFU.

Absolam

I may be just fanning the flames but anyways;

The MOD doesn't forbid membership of the Freemasons, but perceives the possibility that disparate loyalties could occur, and therefore as a body doesn't encourage membership. Hardly earth shattering.

Many Christian churches feel that Freemasonry is not compatible with Christian faith. They're not conspiricy theorists; they know that at Masonic meetings we permit and encourage members to worship according to their own faith and to study their own faith. That means, from a strict Christian point of view we are considered to encourage Humanism and/or Deism which is irreconcilable with faith from the Churches point of view. I suspect they'd be happy enough if all Lodges enforced a Christian religious stance. Of course, the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and agnostic Freemasons would be upset.

There is no doubt or argument that some people who were Freemasons used their membership in order to gain advantage, and apocryphal examples are often given from the UK police force. BUT Freemasonry itself expressly forbids such activity; as an organisation great care is taken to impress upon members that they are under no obligation to protect their brethren from the law, and they are obliged to act in good conscience when they become aware of wrongdoing . But as with every large organisation there will be members who do wrong; in Freemasonry they are expelled when that is found out.

ISAW, what does it matter what level Mason PaintDoctor is? He pointed out the oaths all Freemasons take; higher level Masons can't rescind them, an oath is an oath.
I can't imagine he'd be 'asked to defend a fellow mason in a debate on boards or to help them out in a discussion', I doubt anyone on boards attaches such significance to their discussions here, but if he had, would it matter at all?

Why are you so insistant on ranks and levels? I can only imagine that once someone gives you a number, you will claim there are more above it and that there is where the conspiracy lies... safe from rebuff.

A few seconds googling will assure you we do not allow women members, in fact reading this thread would have verified it for you. What's the point in asking?

And your final point 'As does the local bishop and TD. But they don't roll the leg up do they? ', whilst marginally pithy, does beg the question, do you have something to discuss here, or are you just looking to attack someone who is not the same as you?

ISAW

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

It was another thread about Freemasons. Perhaps you would like a link?

Perhaps you would suply one?

Seriously this has been asked a million times. Its a FRATERNITY!

so that is no women then.

I think you are a conspiracy theorist. Not a liar, but simply confused.

The original poster asserted i was lying.

Thats from Wikipedia. Nuff said.

Nope the quote used was from the Independent on sunday.
Do you deny Kenneth noye was admitted to Hammersmith lodge when he had a criminal record and was proposed and seconded by two police officers and eventually became master of the lodge? answer honestly please.

And seriously why do you think so Many masons keep quiet about their membership? I'm pretty sure its because they don't want to listen to conspiracy theories about their fraternity, and listen to ridiculous accusations about things others may or may not have done. There are criminals in all walks of life. I have no doubt that over the years some masons have committed crimes. But as far as I know if someone has a significant criminal record they are denied entry/removed in order to preserve the integrity of the Lodge and to not leave the broherhood open to attacks such as yours.

But noye was admitted with a criminal record?

That isn't an attack it is a FACT!

If a church admitted a criminal to the priesthood you would harp on about it Im sure.
You have been shown a list of churches who oppose Masonry - FACT!

http://www.cin.org/vatcong/masonas.html

don't try to say because wikipedia also list it that it is not true!

ISAW

PaintDoctor wrote: »

This thread is hilarious. Absolute comedy, and I really fear for the mental health of people worrying about a club for lads just to have a bit of a laugh, and get on well together.

Are you referring to the chelsea head hunters or maybe the West Ham Inter City firm?
Oh no you refer to the Freemasons which a plethors of churches have Banned! Which admit known criminals as members and then deny it happened as conspiracy?

Or on the other hand, I could be involved in a conspiracy to read your minds right now. Tinfoil hats everyone.

It isn't a conspiracy that Kennety Now was a criminal when admitted to Hammersmith Lodge and later became the Master of that lodge.

It isnt a conspiracy that christian churches Ban members being Freemasons.

Seriously everyone, grow up. This secret society bull**** is just that. Bull****. You can read everything about Masons online, even the secret handshakes if you google hard enough.

Not published by Masons! You can also read about the CIA but they dont publish it either.

And about those higher orders I was asked about earlier? Yup, they're all fine too. And I should know

Seeing as you claim it is all not secret.
What level of mason are you and how many levels are there?
What is the NOT secret word for your level?

ISAW

Absolam wrote: »

I
ISAW, what does it matter what level Mason PaintDoctor is?

If it isn't a secret society that information should be available for me. I shouldn't have to give a reason for what it matters to me or why I want it.

He pointed out the oaths all Freemasons take; higher level Masons can't rescind them, an oath is an oath.

And you are saying higher level masons take no additional oaths with no additional secrets?

I can't imagine he'd be 'asked to defend a fellow mason in a debate on boards or to help them out in a discussion', I doubt anyone on boards attaches such significance to their discussions here, but if he had, would it matter at all?

You seem to attach significance to it. Are you a mason? What level? How many levels are there?

Why are you so insistant on ranks and levels?

Why should i have to supply a reason?
Why are you so secretive about your level?

I can only imagine that once someone gives you a number, you will claim there are more above it and that there is where the conspiracy lies... safe from rebuff.

Imagine what you want. way won't you answer if it isn't a secret?

A few seconds googling will assure you we do not allow women members, in fact reading this thread would have verified it for you. What's the point in asking?

Doesn't matter what the point is. what matters is whether people answer and supply hnest answers and have a open and not a secret society as they claim.

And your final point 'As does the local bishop and TD. But they don't roll the leg up do they? ', whilst marginally pithy, does beg the question, do you have something to discuss here, or are you just looking to attack someone who is not the same as you?

I didn't make the original point about trouser legs.

http://www.catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/10050.html

Absolam

As for Kenneth Noye; he was a criminal, who associated with criminals, and corrupt police officers. He is reported to have joined Hammersmith Lodge which had corrupt members including police officers, although every report I have seen looks like a copy of the same original, and none of them provide a source for the information.
True or not (and I'm sure it could be true), as I have previously posted, any large organisation will inevitably have members who behave in a manner which is at odds with the ideals of the organisation. I think it's fair to say Kenneth Noye is not a Freemason now. It remains the case that Masonic Lodges in general will not admit a candidate of poor moral character.

Your point on churches has been answered, but as you say, if a church admitted a criminal to the priesthood people would have something to say about it. Actually, if anyone admitted a criminal to a non criminal organisation, someone would have something to say about it. That's the way it goes with criminals.

ISAW wrote: »

If it isn't a secret society that information should be available for me. I shouldn't have to give a reason for what it matters to me or why I want it.

Well, no not really. You're not entitled to information about any private (not secret) organisation; the profit figures for Dunnes Stores, the membership list of Stillorgan Ladies Club, the research undertaken by Elan, all these things are private, but do not indicate a secret society, only people whose business is their own.

ISAW wrote: »

And you are saying higher level masons take no additional oaths with no additional secrets?

Nope I'm saying those Masons don't rescind their oaths, they only add to them.

ISAW wrote: »

You seem to attach significance to it. Are you a mason? What level? How many levels are there?

I don't; it's your quote.
I am a Mason, as you would see if you had read the thread.
Why do you want to know what 'level' I am? And how does it matter how many 'levels' there are? I note you're repeating your question without replying to my point... have I hit the mark then?

ISAW wrote: »

Why should i have to supply a reason?
Why are you so secretive about your level?

Because you're asking for information about someone elses personal business; surely you don't think you're entitled to an answer just because you ask?

ISAW wrote: »

Imagine what you want. way won't you answer if it isn't a secret?

I could, and perhaps might have if asked nicely, since for me it's not a secret. But as it's exercising you.. why do you want to know, and why should I tell you? Give me a good reason, and I'll give you an answer.

ISAW wrote: »

Doesn't matter what the point is. what matters is whether people answer and supply hnest answers and have a open and not a secret society as they claim.

Seriously? That childish? You ask questions you can see the answers to in order to 'test' whether you will receive an honest answer? And you think this will determine whether the respondant is a member of an open or a secret society? Really, are you serious?

ISAW wrote: »

I didn't make the original point about trouser legs.

http://www.catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/10050.html

Fair enough, we won't credit you with the wit, just the context, so the question remains.