News on Esat's ADSL

Mountjoy Mugger

I can't find a link for it, so I'll give a brief resumé of what is said in today's I.T.

Esat will deliver DSL to Limerick, Cork and Galway from next month. It will also be delivered to over 30 other, as yet unnamed ,towns.

The cost is expected to be similar to Eircom's i-stream at a minimum of €89 per month. But it is believed that Esat will offer a slightly different service that enables consumers to send files at higher speeds (512/256, I suppose) than Eircom's proposed product.


What an anti climax. At least some of those outside Dublin have a little hope.

Shamo

Please God let there be no cap!

Winters

If they have NO cap lots will signup. one question though? are they going to launch it in Dublin?

m1ke

i'd get esats offering anytime over eircoms, from what the trialists say its totally excellent for gaming. And if there's no cap, it's an easy winner. Let's just hope they offer it in Dublin.

longword

Originally posted by Mountjoy Mugger
different service that enables consumers to send files at higher speeds (512/256, I suppose) than Eircom's proposed product.

I wonder if this is through LLU rather than Eircom's wholesale DSL. Perhaps they have some sort of deal, or gentlemen's agreement, where Eircom and ESAT don't DSL the same exchanges - speeds up the rollout and increases the coverage, but no direct competition.

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by Winters
If they have NO cap lots will signup. one question though? are they going to launch it in Dublin?

No mention in the article of a Dublin launch, at least not yet. Esat seem to be using exchanges outside Dublin which they've got access.

There is no mention of a capped or uncapped service, what they say is that it will be similar to eircom's service but with an increased upload capacity. My reading of that would tend to lean towards a cap.. I hope I'm wrong.

So much for competition if that proves to be the case.

RFHost

Thank GoD!! That sounds promising. I rang eircom and enquired about DSL in Galway and they said they hoped to have it ready by the end of the year. WTF!!

It would be brillant if it was uncapped!!

Mick-X-Listener

I'm in South Dublin (Greenhills) and was on the Esat trial last October with 1mb down and 256 up with exellent results I was on the walkinstownXcrumlin exchange. Does this mean they will set up here?

Winters

I hope they launch it in Dublin. 1MB download! wow. Eircom would have nobody on there DSL if esat were to offer that!








We can only wait........some more

Lemming

I don't mind a cap once its
a) Reasonable (ie. NOT 3gb)

and

b) The cost of over-capping is also reasonable (ie. NOT 35 euro/gb)

SkepticOne

Article here.

Tazzle

i would [be really interested in getting] adsl in cork by next month. Please god let it be so.

(edited by mod - keep sexual issues to Personal Issues forum):)

dahamsta

I wonder if this is through LLU rather than Eircom's wholesale DSL.

At the moment, yes it is.

Perhaps they have some sort of deal, or gentlemen's agreement, where Eircom and ESAT don't DSL the same exchanges - speeds up the rollout and increases the coverage, but no direct competition.

That's called a cartel. If you could prove /that/, we'd have /them/ by the balls.

adam

Jorinn

Originally posted by Winters
I hope they launch it in Dublin. 1MB download! wow. Eircom would have nobody on there DSL if esat were to offer that!








We can only wait........some more

You don't seem to realise that eircom have a 1 megabit download option and that Esat's service will most likely be almost identical in price assuming that esat don't use it as a loss leader as they pay eircom a setfee each month (can't remember what it is, soz.)

Tellox

I'd shoot my grannie if it meant ADSL in waterford soon..
no really,I would.

Overlord

"Esat will also introduce a type of technology called synchronous digital subscriber line to the Republic shortly. "

The "synchronous" bit is nice. This means its SDSL and not ADSL that eircom are offering.
SDSL means that its equal speeds up AND down.
This will be good for gaming a whole team in say, quake3.
Limited upload speeds offered by eircom ADSL (inhernet in ADSL) restrict the number of players that can play at the same time. This would make it affordable to share the cost of internet connection from one house.
Cmon ESAT do it for the lads.

ando

Sdsl... please say that has more than a 2.5km limit from the exchange ... cause I dont think i'll be within range of my exchange for adsl

BTW, havent seen any updates to http://register.esatfusion.ie/adsl/index.html yet?

longword

Originally posted by ando
Sdsl... please say that has more than a 2.5km limit from the exchange ...

SDSL is subject to the same or worse limitations then ADSL. There' s no magic involved I'm afraid.

jmcc

Originally posted by Overlord
"Esat will also introduce a type of technology called synchronous digital subscriber line to the Republic shortly. "

Oh Gawd another Irish Times reader. [1] For 'Synchronous' substitute Symmetrical.

Much as it would be a good thing to have SDSL for everyone, I think that ESAT will be aiming at the businesses with this one.

Regards...jmcc
[1] For years, the Irish Times technology journalists referred to the 'A' in ADSL as Asynchronous, even after being repeatedly corrected by those with a clue.

sceptre

SDSL has been trialled in Limerick by Esat for a number of months (read back through the archives for a discussion of this at the time)

It's mostly aimed at the business market (and carries a hefty price premium)

longword

Originally posted by Jorinn
You don't seem to realise that eircom have a 1 megabit download option and that Esat's service will most likely be almost identical in price assuming that esat don't use it as a loss leader as they pay eircom a setfee each month (can't remember what it is, soz.)

If they're using LLU to do this, they're paying about 14 euro per month for each line - far less than the 49/79 euro for wholesale DSL. However we don't know the full story here. Eircom will be charging Esat for the privilige of housing equipment in the exchange, backbone lines going into the exchange, access rights to the building itself, and whatever hidden extras Eircom think they can get away with. On the plus side, Esat can use the lines for whatever they will bear - the G.dmt standard for ADSL allows for up to 8Mbit down, 1Mbit up.

If they wanted to (and this applies to Eircom too) they could implement IDSL. This is pretty much the ISDN standard except that it doesn't do voice calls, all the bits are dedicated to data packet, and it terminates at the exchange just like a DSLAM. You only get 144/144 but it is low ping, always on. The big win is like ISDN, it's good for nearly 10km and not so fussy about the quality of the line.

Overlord

Originally posted by jmcc


Oh Gawd another Irish Times reader. [1] For 'Synchronous' substitute Symmetrical.

Much as it would be a good thing to have SDSL for everyone, I think that ESAT will be aiming at the businesses with this one.

Regards...jmcc
[1] For years, the Irish Times technology journalists referred to the 'A' in ADSL as Asynchronous, even after being repeatedly corrected by those with a clue.

oh GAWD another nitpicking nerd.
Yes, its "symmetrical", congratulations.

dahamsta

Actually, it's "symmetric".

heh

adam

El_MUERkO

It could stand for smelly and I'd still buy it if its equal to or better than eircoms ADSL offering.

Arboration

Originally posted by longword

If they're using LLU to do this, they're paying about 14 euro per month for each line - far less than the 49/79 euro for wholesale DSL. However we don't know the full story here. Eircom will be charging Esat for the privilige of housing equipment in the exchange, backbone lines going into the exchange, access rights to the building itself, and whatever hidden extras Eircom think they can get away with. On the plus side, Esat can use the lines for whatever they will bear - the G.dmt standard for ADSL allows for up to 8Mbit down, 1Mbit up.

If they wanted to (and this applies to Eircom too) they could implement IDSL. This is pretty much the ISDN standard except that it doesn't do voice calls, all the bits are dedicated to data packet, and it terminates at the exchange just like a DSLAM. You only get 144/144 but it is low ping, always on. The big win is like ISDN, it's good for nearly 10km and not so fussy about the quality of the line.

So if they sell it at 80e a month.
Then thats a 570% increase on what they're actually paying to provide the service
Can you spell, unfair ?

jmcc

Originally posted by dahamsta
Actually, it's "symmetric".

Not quite:
http://www.adsl.com/about_dsl.htm

Of course this is the point at which it ascends into a wirehead discussion thus freaking out Overlord's nerd detector.

Take a look at G.Lite and compare it with what is going to be available here.

But at this time of the morning (when I have to try to reconstruct a webserver checking spider program from memory because of non-standard keyboard mapping - amazing what happens when you go to type rm *~ but the ~ key is not in the usual place) it doesn't matter whether is asymmetric or asymmetrical as long as it is *fast*.

Regards...jmcc

dahamsta

> > Actually, it's "symmetric".
> >
>
> Not quite:
> http://www.adsl.com/about_dsl.htm

Quite:

SDSL: (symmetric DSL) SDSL is a vendor-proprietary version of symmetric DSL that may include bit-rates to and from the customer ranging of 128 kbps to 2.32 Mbps. SDSL is an umbrella term for a number of supplier-specific implementations over a single copper pair providing variable rates of symmetric service. SDSL uses 2B1Q HDSL run on a single pair with an Ethernet interface to the customer. The industry is expected to quickly move towards the higher performing and standardized G.shdsl technology developed by the ITU with support from T1E1.4 (USA) and ETSI (European Telecommunications Standards Institute).

Okay, okay, you can use both. But "symmetrical" is just stupid!

But at this time of the morning (when I have to try to reconstruct a webserver checking spider program from memory because of non-standard keyboard mapping - amazing what happens when you go to type rm *~ but the ~ key is not in the usual place)

You just can't not drop something in, can you John?

it doesn't matter whether is asymmetric or asymmetrical as long as it is *fast*.

Indeed. I don't think I'll see any of them for a while though - unless the DPE grows a brain during the election - so it doesn't really make a difference to me either way. Now, always-on, that's a different story...

adam

longword

Originally posted by Arboration
So if they sell it at 80e a month.
Then thats a 570% increase on what they're actually paying to provide the service

Errr. No. They'd be selling it at a 570% markup on _one_ of their many costs in providing DSL. 14 euro gets them access rights to your wires. NOTHING more. Just an empty pair of copper wires that aren't connected to anything interesting. No DSLAM. Nowhere to put a DSLAM. No engineer to look after it. No internet connection. No ISP service.

jmcc

Originally posted by dahamsta
> > Actually, it's "symmetric".
> >
>
> Not quite:
> http://www.adsl.com/about_dsl.htm

Okay, okay, you can use both. But "symmetrical" is just stupid!

Yep especially since it is used in both contexts in the URL I quoted above:
"ADSL: (Full Rate asymmetrical DSL) ADSL offers differing upload and download speeds and can be configured to deliver up to six megabits of data
per second (6000K) from the network to the customer"

You just can't not drop something in, can you John?

Nah more a case of me dropping right in it. I had intended on trying to get back to daylight hours but this and the Full Moon has dented those plans.

Indeed. I don't think I'll see any of them for a while though - unless the DPE grows a brain during the election - so it doesn't really make a difference to me either way. Now, always-on, that's a different story...

While Ministers may come and go, the DPE is run by civil servants. I think that Minister Mary may be on the way out and may not be reappointed to that post in a new FF government.

One thing that is bugging me about the whole ADSL model as implemented by Eircom/Esat/Other - will there be local routing of the packets? A local INEX for each city would be an excellent business opportunity to grow the metro internet usage in each city and could allow of the implementation of a packet based solution based on near free local (city) packets. Though if I saw such thinking coming out of the ISPs/Telcos I'd be as happy as a vampire who has discovered sunblock.

Regards...jmcc

dahamsta

Yep especially since it is used in both contexts in the URL I quoted above:

I'll file a complaint!

Nah more a case of me dropping right in it. I had intended on trying to get back to daylight hours but this and the Full Moon has dented those plans.

Well, I'm still here at 5:48, so you're not the only one.

While Ministers may come and go, the DPE is run by civil servants. I think that Minister Mary may be on the way out and may not be reappointed to that post in a new FF government.

I was thinking about this earlier as it happens. In the US, when a new administration comes in, nearly everybody in the outgoing administration is funted out, and new people installed. In Ireland and the UK, the majority stays on. It's been said that our model is more stable, but I wonder about that. Civil servants are very resistant to change.

Dunno much about the rest of it, aside from the fact that some people seem to have a problem with the centralisation of the network. I think it was yerfella from Strencom was telling me a while back that he didn't connect directly to the Cork POP because there was no-one down here to fix it if something went wrong - someone had to be sent from Dublin to do it. It sounded like guff at the time, but you never can tell in this business.

adam

Felix Randel

LLU is used for SDSL(and higher) Full stop, not ADSL, it wouldnt make any business sense to release ADSL over LLU.

That said, the article just mentioned DSL, and quiet frankly 89 euro a month for SDSL would be extremely good imho for ireland.
Sicne SDSL is the main competitor to Leased lines(NOT ADSL)

It also fits with the mentioned increased upstream bandwidth, 512:512 nice ring to it.

Basicallt forget ADSL over LLU,

D-Generate

Does anyone know the list of exchanges in Cork owned by Esat, and how far is Frankfield/Grange from the nearest exchange
Ta

Felix Randel

None, they usual, as i understand the situation have sub exchanges located near eircoms main exchange

jd

Originally posted by jmcc

I had intended on trying to get back to daylight hours but this and the Full Moon has dented those plans.


Regards...jmcc

eh?
something we should know john?

longword

Originally posted by Felix Randel
LLU is used for SDSL(and higher) Full stop, not ADSL, it wouldnt make any business sense to release ADSL over LLU.

That may be true in other countries, but where you've got sky high wholesale ADSL pricing and what appears to be very reasonable LLU pricing, there's a good chance it's worth it.

Over a 1 year contract, Eircom will charge an OLO €938 for wholesale DSL. Full LLU costs less than €160 over the same period, plus whatever hidden extras Eircom come up with. I'm guessing it's possible for an OLO to keep a DSLAM port live for less than €600. And that's just at 512/128 - it makes even more sense at higher speeds.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by longword

That may be true in other countries, but where you've got sky high wholesale ADSL pricing and what appears to be very reasonable LLU pricing, there's a good chance it's worth it.

I agree with this. Although, SDSL will be the big initial draw, it makes sense for the OLO, who's gone to the trouble of gaining entry to the exchange, to maximise the return by gaining revenue from a much larger number of small businesses and home users. The big hurdle is getting in to the exchanges.

Boston

One thing, its not 14 euro anymore

longword

Originally posted by Boston
One thing, its not 14 euro anymore

If you have more up to date numbers could you share them? Last I heard the ODTR had beaten Eircom into full LLU pricing of between €13 and €14 - I don't recall the exact figure. Until I hear different numbers I can only assume this pricing scheme is still in effect.

Boston

When the odtr announced that bitsream access had been settled and lowered they also announced that llu prices for line rental had increased but that rental of space in the exchange and site survey charges had decreased.

longword

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I agree with this. Although, SDSL will be the big initial draw, it makes sense for the OLO, who's gone to the trouble of gaining entry to the exchange, to maximise the return by gaining revenue from a much larger number of small businesses and home users. The big hurdle is getting in to the exchanges.

Exactly. Most DSLAM equipment seems designed to take a combination of ADSL, SDSL, and IDSL ports in the same chassis - it's just a matter of pluging in the cards as necessary. They all feed into the same fat upstream pipe. Marginal extra effort for mucho extra customers.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by longword
If you have more up to date numbers could you share them? Last I heard the ODTR had beaten Eircom into full LLU pricing of between €13 and €14 - I don't recall the exact figure. Until I hear different numbers I can only assume this pricing scheme is still in effect.

According to the latest ODTR document A fully unbundled line now costs EUR 16 per month. Line sharing EUR 9 per month. I haven't looked at much of the other charges yet. Longword, can you pm me with your email address.

longword

Originally posted by SkepticOne
According to the latest ODTR document A fully unbundled line now costs EUR 16 per month. Line sharing EUR 9 per month. I haven't looked at much of the other charges yet.

Yeah, I found the Access Reference Offer on Eircom's site. A beefy tome.

http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/arover2.pdf

€16.81 per month per line. €121.52 connection charge. €60 for one engineer to set foot inside an exchange for 30 minutes during business hours - double that if you don't warn them and double that again if its outside hours. I've only glanced at the 175 page document but I haven't come across their colo charges yet

glimmerman

when does dublin roll out?

El_MUERkO

From an article in ENN

The retail cost of Esat's ADSL service will be EUR270 per quarter with a once-off connection fee of EUR125.64 for a 512k connection. The company's 1Mb service will cost EUR614 every three months, but the connection fee remains the same. Its highest speed service, at 2Mb per second, will cost users EUR1,200 quarterly with a connection fee of EUR1,500.

EUR270 / 3 = EUR90 per month, which is EUR17 cheaper than Eircom for 512/256, no cap is meantioned but that doesnt mean there isnt one.

http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=7327314

They also say they are in negotiations to unbundle Dublin. My guess is EIRCON will drag out those talks as long as possible so it can operate without competition.

Boston

FFS it doesnt include VAT its a tad more expensive then eircoms deal

ando

Originally posted by Boston
FFS it doesnt include VAT its a tad more expensive then eircoms deal

ah i know, but at least we're finally getting somewhere on this issue, and as esat said, they fully expect the prices to drop over the next year

timod

In the times:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2002/0430/3636203145BZDSL.html

In the Indo:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=742296&issue_id=7312

In the Examiner:

http://www.examiner.ie/nuapublish/np/NP/WPBTool/WPBWebPageH/business/Full_Story?did=sgnu{OfLcasHU


RTE:

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2002/0429/businesstoday.html
(They have a real audio clip there too, but i can't listen here)
"Peter Evans says it may take up to year before DSL can be
offered to residential customers "

==============================================
In other news, Skynet have been given a Telecoms licence:
http://new.businessandfinance.ie/livenews.htm?a=294003

"The licence allows for the provision of voice, data and wireless connectivity services by Skynet, which until now has operated as a reseller in the Irish market."

Scruff

excert from the article in the irish Independent:

Esat chief executive Bill Murphy said the service would be launched and aimed at businesses at a cost of €90 per month. If the service reached a critical mass, it would be rolled out to domestic users.

er.....don't like that last bit very much.


RTE sound clip:
No cap on download or upload.
May take 6 months to a year to get costs down to the €30-40 level before they can offer it to consumer. its all down to the demands they can get on the product.

BKtje

at the price they askin we can expect a long wait then.
(especially since a lot of ppl will be turned off initially by it, cos of the risk of downgrading their ISDN just to find out that their line aint up to it.)

El_MUERkO

I'll wait for ESATs offer rather than get Eircons.

The pricing is with a few cents but ESATs got no cap and double the upload speed

BKtje

who says esat will have no cap?