Do you have any sympathy for George Best?

Paddy20

DaveMcG wrote:

You don't think he owes the person whose liver he's currently using? Or the person who could have had the liver and not abused it?

If you had bothered to read my post properly, you would not need to ask, as I stated "He owe's no one anything".

P.:cool:

Dave!

Ah, silly eyes

I guess we'll have to disagree on that, then, cos I think he owes everyone everything.

WhiteWashMan

Mikaboshi wrote:

that is in my opinion, that is why i have asked you to explain your comments as i perceive them to be insults.

so you are not actually talking for other people here?

ok, just wanted to clear that up.

Mikaboshi wrote:

This is the last time i am asking you politely to explain your comments,

noted.

Mikaboshi wrote:

i will just give up and not bother this thread again.

bye now.

Mikaboshi wrote:

But i would much rather prefer you do take the time to explain them to me please, I would appreciate it.

id appreciate a ferrari....

Siogfinsceal

my uncle has severe kidney problems and is in a wheelchair. Ther are so many people out there waiting on a transplant yet george best got one and abused it. He was ill, they made him better and yet he decided that drinking was more important than living. I have no sympathy. it was the same with his wife alex - he lost her because of drinking its her i feel sorry for she used to go to pubs and beg landlords no to serve him

elusiveguy

Canis Lupus wrote:

Hows about people stop making excuses for the fact he couldn't stay out of the pub. I have little respect for alcoholics. Even less for those who are in the public eye and even less for alcoholics who drink themselves through 2 livers.

Silverfish wrote:

A disease is something you contract.

Alcoholism is, as far as I'm concerned, self-destruction.

People with diseases rarely choose to contract them. I know my sister and mother did not choose to have cancer, and its not like they were told 'You have to stop doing x, y and z' and chose to ignore that advice.

Mikaboshi wrote:

The good it would do is that if people realise it is their own responsibility to kick the habit and that nothing in this world can change the fact it is through their own willpower alone that this can be achieved then more people might kick the habit. Calling alcoholism a disease and removing the responsibility away from the alcoholic saying its not their fault etc is just giving them excuses not to quit the drink.

Clearly people who have no experience with alcoholism... My mother is an alcoholic, has been for about fifteen years. She's been sober a year since June. I've just turned twenty. My parents are divorced(before the drink) so I DO know about alcoholism. It is something the person has almost no control over. It is genetic. In my opinion those to points in themselves are enough to make it a disease.

I am unbelievably proud of what this woman has achieved. both in beating her illness and since then...

Disease of the mind such as Paranoid schizophrenia can be classified in a shockingly similar manner and as xzanti posted anyone with any experience with full on AA or Alanon will see this very clearly.

I lived with an alcoholic for most of my life and now that she is sober I can see that she could not control it... Very few ppl can control addiction on there own. Thats why the various Anoymous groups are the largest non (specific)religious/political group in the world with ppl of all ages from all parts of communities.

As for George Best, when he got his liver, he abandoned his path to sobriety and those who supported him on it. In this aspect of the whole situation I feel infinite sympathy.

I find his timing of it deplorable.

I can't however feel no sympathy for a man who is probably lying in hospital probably looking looking back on a possible life beyond most ppls wildest dreams, which he drank away...

To the mods, something should probably be done about this thread as it is quite hurtful to anyone who has experienced addiction, either in themselves or a loved one...

I apologise for my spelling and punctuation....

Sangre

elusiveguy wrote:

To the mods, something should probably be done about this thread as it is quite disturbing for anyone who has experienced addiction, either in themselves or a loved one...

I apologise for my spelling and punctuation....

Yes lets all get the cotton wool out and hope into the padded room. That grass is mighty sharp these days.

You go on about his disease and then point out your mother has been sober since June. So what? it is possible to give up? Then how is it a disease?

Do you have studies to show its genetic?

elusiveguy

Sangre wrote:

Yes lets all get the cotton wool out and hope into the padded room. That grass is mighty sharp these days.

You go on about his disease and then point out your mother has been sober since June. So what? it is possible to give up? Then how is it a disease?

Do you have studies to show its genetic?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8234925&dopt=Abstract

There's one to get you going.... There's also this thing call google if you use it you'll find more stuff.....

Again showing a HUGE lack of understanding of alcoholism... It is possible to stop drinking, but if you start again, no matter how long has passed psychologically it would be as if you were addicted all along... So the disease never goes away. Again that fantastic google tool I meantion earlier can be used here


And one final point, get a bit of common human decency

Sangre

Im not going to search the internet just because you made a point.

I do have human decency. Except its for people being denied a liver because it was given to superstar alchoholic.

Silverfish

t is possible to stop drinking, but if you start again, no matter how long has passed psychologically it would be as if you were addicted all along...

Is it possible to stop having cancer? Or multiple sclerosis? Or Spina Bifida? Or leukaemia?

No. There are no AA groups that will help these people 'get off their diseases' either. They can't do it by willpower alone.

I'm sorry for your situation. Its not nice. Your mum is doing well, and thats good. But George Best has wasted two livers. I have no sympathy left for him. Its needed elsewhere.

elusiveguy

Silverfish wrote:

Is it possible to stop having cancer? Or multiple sclerosis? Or Spina Bifida? Or leukaemia?

Remission??? Well in the cases of cancer... Also as I mentioned, compare it to a psychological disease....

Silverfish wrote:

No. There are no AA groups that will help these people 'get off their diseases' either. They can't do it by willpower alone.

AA describe it as a disease.

Silverfish wrote:

But George Best has wasted two livers. I have no sympathy left for him. Its needed elsewhere.

Sangre wrote:

Except its for people being denied a liver because it was given to superstar alchoholic.

As I said I'm not arguing that the man hasn't completely wasted a liver and probably killed someone by taking it....



Also I'm not looking for a pat ont the back or a "jez isn't your mom great", I was just demonstrating an experience of alcoholism

Silverfish

Yes, and I'm not trying to pat you on the back or patronise you in any way, but just state that for cancer patients, remission means nothing.

Incidentally, my sister was in 'remission' when she died. I just don't think its comparable to an alcoholic staying off the drink.

My mother was in 'remission' when they found tumours on her spine and told her she would never walk again.

Hence my sympathies being elsewhere.

elusiveguy

Silverfish wrote:

Yes, and I'm not trying to pat you on the back or patronise you in any way, but just state that for cancer patients, remission means nothing.

Incidentally, my sister was in 'remission' when she died. I just don't think its comparable to an alcoholic staying off the drink.

My mother was in 'remission' when they found tumours on her spine and told her she would never walk again.

Hence my sympathies being elsewhere.

I can fully understand that... On the scale of things cancer is an infinitely more serious beast, I will not agrue with that. What I want to argue against is the "He/she just can't be bothered to give up, thats why they drink" because it's far more complicated than that.

patchouli

elusiveguy wrote:

It is something the person has almost no control over. It is genetic. In my opinion those to points in themselves are enough to make it a disease.

elusiveguy,
I thoroughly agree with the above and everything that you've said in your posts - and very well said.

I do think that alcoholism is a disease. And like any disease, it deteriorates the longer it is left untreated.

When it comes to alcoholism/problem drinking/alcohol abuse, there are several shades of grey in between the dyed in the wool vodka-for-breakfast alcoholic and at the opposite end of the scale, the teetotallar who has never touched a drop and never will.
It's a complex issue.
Like a lot of things in life...

Maguined

alcoholism is an addiction. what makes it a disease ? is being addicted to nicotine a disease ? are all addictions diseases ? why do we bother to make distinctions between an addiction and a disease if they are the same thing ?

how exactly does someone have no control over wether they take a drink or not ? yes they feel an incredibly strong compulsion to drink but that does not mean they have to only that they perceive they have to. this is because they are addicted, addiction makes you compelled to attain whatever your body is addicted too. this is not a disease.

you cannot detect the presence of alcoholism in someones body, you can detect high levels of alcohol but this alone does not make one an alcoholic.

I have asked this question before and i dont think anyone answered me, how does an alcoholic stop being an alcoholic ? it is obviously a curable as peole have stopped being an alcoholic but how did they do this ? if they have no controlo over wether they drink or not then what stopped them drinking ? it was not magic or aliens it was through control and choice alone.

elusiveguy you contradict yourself in the language you use, you first say that your mother had almost no control over it and it was genetic yet you then say she has beaten the illness andyou are proud of this acheivement. i doubt she has gone under any genetic treatment for it and if it was not in her control then how did it stop and why should you be proud of her if she did nothing ? I believe your mother suffered from an addiction, i dont see it as a disease. I think she had control of the situation and you should be proud as she has acheived something, she has ended her alcoholism through her own willpower and that is an achievement and something to be proud of.

Just because i do not view alcoholism as a disease does not mean i view it as something that is easy to break or that its effects on lives are not as important as something i do consider a disease.

WhiteWashMan

Mikaboshi wrote:

Just because i do not view alcoholism as a disease does not mean i view it as something that is easy to break or that its effects on lives are not as important as something i do consider a disease.

but i thought this was the whole point of your argument, you didnt feel any sympathy for george best becasue he didnt have a disease, its all his own fault, he probably killed someone else by getting a transplant (only because he was famous no doubt) when someone else could have got one and not abused it.

I have asked this question before and i dont think anyone answered me, how does an alcoholic stop being an alcoholic ? it is obviously a curable as peole have stopped being an alcoholic but how did they do this ? if they have no controlo over wether they drink or not then what stopped them drinking ? it was not magic or aliens it was through control and choice alone.

you never stop. you always want a drink.
just like smokers are never ever going to be non smokers.
oh, you can give up or a year, or 2 or 10 or 20, but you will alaways be a smoker.

by the way, if you dont know things like this, how an you possibly argue?
i mean, how can you hold such a staunch position, when you dont seem to know the facts. all i see is you saying that alcoholism isnt a disease because you bloody well say say!

perhaps you had best leave this thread?

Maguined

WhiteWashMan wrote:

but i thought this was the whole point of your argument,

you thought wrong.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

you didnt feel any sympathy for george best becasue he didnt have a disease, its all his own fault, he probably killed someone else by getting a transplant (only because he was famous no doubt) when someone else could have got one and not abused it.

I will say my points again for you then, I don't have any sympathy for him because it is in his control to stop when he wants too. now he got a second liver and still drank despite the fact it was ruining his life and his wifes and his families. yes he probably did kill someone else by getting the liver, if i was lucky enough to get a organ transplant that saved my life i think i would be far more appreciative of it than he was, like the majority of organ receivers out there that feel an extra responsibility for changing their life as someone else could have gotten that organ.

I am not picking on Best because he is famous as you seem to think but this thread was started about Best, if you want to start a thread about person X who is an alocoholic then i will discuss person X. I do feel Best is worse than many other alcoholics as due to his wealth he can afford much better support for giving up the drink but still didn't. I doubt elusiveguys mother had the capacity to up and leave her family and go spend thousands to enter into the betty ford clinic ? Best could afford this luxury but has he ? The Betty Ford Clinic has an incredibly high rate of success which is why only the rich and famous can afford it, Best can afford it so has he gone there ?

WhiteWashMan wrote:

you never stop. you always want a drink.
just like smokers are never ever going to be non smokers.
oh, you can give up or a year, or 2 or 10 or 20, but you will alaways be a smoker.

And that makes it not an addiciton and proves its a disease how ?

WhiteWashMan wrote:

by the way, if you dont know things like this, how an you possibly argue?
i mean, how can you hold such a staunch position, when you dont seem to know the facts. all i see is you saying that alcoholism isnt a disease because you bloody well say say!

Show me the facts where it says acloholism is a disease ? show me a medical journal stating it is a disease and not an addiction ?

All i see you saying is that alcoholism is a diseas because you bloddy well say! you have offered no more evidence than I, saying its a disease because " you don't have any control " is no proof it is a disease at all.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

perhaps you had best leave this thread?

why ? am I upsetting you WWM ?

perhaps you should crawl baack under your bridge then ?

elusiveguy

Mikaboshi wrote:

Show me the facts where it says acloholism is a disease ? show me a medical journal stating it is a disease and not an addiction ?

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/FAQs/General-English/FAQ2.htm

Excert from http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html

Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated. In the past 10 years, the medical profession’s and the public’s acceptance of smoking as an addictive disease has resulted in reducing nicotine use in the United States. I feel that similar strides can be made with alcohol abuse. We must begin, as we did with nicotine, by educating and convincing our own colleagues that alcoholism is a disease. We must also emphasize that physicians have played a significant role in reducing the mortality and morbidity from nicotine use through patient education. Through strong physician intervention, I believe that we can achieve similar results with alcohol abuse.